Canadian deaths in Lebanon cast pall over G8 political success for Har

[gerryhatrick]

Canadian deaths in Lebanon cast pall over G8 political success for Harper

16, 2006 - 1:28 pm

By: BRUCE CHEADLE

ST. PETERSBURG, Russia (CP) - The deaths of eight Canadians in Lebanon on Sunday cast a pall over Prime Minister Stephen Harper's participation in a surprising G8 political entente on the raging conflict in the Middle East.

Harper had barely finished lauding the G8's consensus statement concerning the deeply divisive battle raging across the borders of Israel and Lebanon, when word came that an Israeli air strike had claimed the lives of eight Canadians, at least some of whom were from the same vacationing family.

The Harper government, stung by media stories that it had been slow off the mark in arranging for the evacuation of Canadian citizens in Lebanon, had also just announced it was in the process of arranging for commercial ships to lift Canadian nationals from Lebanon's shores.

snip

Harper did not take media questions on the agreement, the evacuation efforts or any other subject, so it was left to senior government officials, speaking on background, to explain Canada's role.

http://www.news1130.com/news/national/arti...ontent=n071637A

He's too busy to answer questions I guess.

It's the G8, they ALL take questions. Something is seriously wrong with that boy.

And if these deaths can serve any purpose I hope they demonstrate to Canadians how idiotic Harpers ealier comments about this escallation. Lebanon cannot defend itself, and there's serious doubt that it could do anything about Hizbullah, so for Harper to have called all this bombing "self defense" and said that all the "onus" is on someone other than Israel to avoid further escallation was disgusting. He should be ashamed.

It's been a "measured response" he feels? Let him tell that to the families of these dead Canadians.

[Argus]

And if these deaths can serve any purpose I hope they demonstrate to Canadians how idiotic Harpers ealier comments about this escallation. Lebanon cannot defend itself, and there's serious doubt that it could do anything about Hizbullah, so for Harper to have called all this bombing "self defense" and said that all the "onus" is on someone other than Israel to avoid further escallation was disgusting. He should be ashamed.

It's been a "measured response" he feels? Let him tell that to the families of these dead Canadians.

First: They weren't so much Canadians as they were Canadians of convenience, which is what so many immigrants are today. They came here for a better economic life, but their hearts were in Lebanon. Which is the case, in my experience, with most Lebanese. In this case, their bodies were there too. Tough luck, bad timing. Shouldn't have gone "home" should they?

Second: If the government of Lebanon cannot exercise sovereignty over southern Lebanon then they should not claim it as part of their nation. If that region is Hezbollah territory it ought to be renamed Hezbollia or something, and then the Israelis can focus all their weapons on them.

[geoffrey]

The hell Argus, some of them had never been to Lebanon before. They were on vacation and the IAF decided their house looked nice and shiny to target. Just random, no intelligence. Just blow up those Arabs right? Who cares if they are innocent or not, they must be Hezbollah supporters right (despite 90% of the population voting against violence in democratic elections)?

"Lebanese TV reports said some of the victims were from the same family and had come from Canada to spend the summer holidays in Aitaroun."

-http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/16/lebanon-canadians.html

[Leafless]

And if these deaths can serve any purpose I hope they demonstrate to Canadians how idiotic Harpers ealier comments about this escallation. Lebanon cannot defend itself, and there's serious doubt that it could do anything about Hizbullah, so for Harper to have called all this bombing "self defense" and said that all the "onus" is on someone other than Israel to avoid further escallation was disgusting. He should be ashamed.

It's been a "measured response" he feels? Let him tell that to the families of these dead Canadians.

Mr. Harper cannot control the world. His statements are not out of line.

Israel does have a right to it's existence, a right to preserve it's future existence by defending themselves.

Face facts, the Arab world has it in for Israel.

I have serious reservations concerning the mentality of anyone vacationing in this part of the world at this time including Israel, for any reason.

[gerryhatrick]

First: They weren't so much Canadians as they were Canadians of convenience, which is what so many immigrants are today. They came here for a better economic life, but their hearts were in Lebanon. Which is the case, in my experience, with most Lebanese. In this case, their bodies were there too. Tough luck, bad timing. Shouldn't have gone "home" should they?

That's just disgusting. Sick and disgusting.

My parents came from England in the 60's, and still go to visit once in a while. Are they also "Canadians of convenience"?

You know nothing about these people. They were on vacation, maybe there were children with them who were born in Canada, like I was. It shouldn't make any difference, but maybe there were. Would that change your disgusting attitude towards them?

Your sentiment is just sick. I think if you answered my question about my family honestly you'd say that my family are Canadians because we're white. You're diminishing these people because to you they're less than human. They're Arab.

I've not seem a more depraved post on the internet in a very long time. Congratulations.

[gerryhatrick]

Israel does have a right to it's existence, a right to preserve it's future existence by defending themselves.

What Israel is doing now is a little out of proportion to a kidnapping though. All of the bombing they're doing...the descruction of Lebanese infrastructure is NOT classifiable as "defending themselves". Don't parrot Bush and Harper for us please.

I have serious reservations concerning the mentality of anyone vacationing in this part of the world at this time including Israel, for any reason.

Yes, blame the victim. Do you agree with Argus also, that these weren't real Canadians?

[Argus]

First: They weren't so much Canadians as they were Canadians of convenience, which is what so many immigrants are today. They came here for a better economic life, but their hearts were in Lebanon. Which is the case, in my experience, with most Lebanese. In this case, their bodies were there too. Tough luck, bad timing. Shouldn't have gone "home" should they?

That's just disgusting. Sick and disgusting.

My parents came from England in the 60's, and still go to visit once in a while. Are they also "Canadians of convenience"?

I wouldn't know. But I know and have known A LOT of Lebanese, and their hearts are in Lebanon. I don't think you'll find a lot of Lebanese, if they're honest, who'll disagree with that.

Your sentiment is just sick. I think if you answered my question about my family honestly you'd say that my family are Canadians because we're white.

You are so banal. I don't care what colour people's skin is. I care what's in their hearts and souls. Whether your parents were still "British" or were Canadians would depend on them. Some people adapt to Canada. Some choose not to.

If I had my choice no immigrant would get a Canadian passport except in exceptional circumstances. Only those born and raised here would be Canadians.

I've not seem a more depraved post on the internet in a very long time. Congratulations.

How innocent you must be.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

In war zones people die. The entire middle east is a war zone and had been since just after the second world war. Anybody that doesn't know this is likely from a different planet. Anybody that would take their family there did so knowing that the area is dangerous. Sadly they lost their lives. It is a tragedy. But that does not change the nature or design of the conflict. Who is right and who is wrong is up to those involved in the conflict. The winner will be declared right and the loser declared wrong that is the nature of warfare.

[jdobbin]

First: They weren't so much Canadians as they were Canadians of convenience, which is what so many immigrants are today. They came here for a better economic life, but their hearts were in Lebanon. Which is the case, in my experience, with most Lebanese. In this case, their bodies were there too. Tough luck, bad timing. Shouldn't have gone "home" should they?

A prime minister cannot abandon 20,000 Canadian citizens. If they start making exceptions for Lebanon, the precedent is set for elsewhere.

[jdobbin]

In war zones people die. The entire middle east is a war zone and had been since just after the second world war. Anybody that doesn't know this is likely from a different planet. Anybody that would take their family there did so knowing that the area is dangerous. Sadly they lost their lives. It is a tragedy. But that does not change the nature or design of the conflict. Who is right and who is wrong is up to those involved in the conflict. The winner will be declared right and the loser declared wrong that is the nature of warfare.

The speed by which the Hezbollah attacked and Israel responded caught many of the people who would have come back to Canada off guard. It happened so fast that the Canadian embassy warning for people to leave only came after the airport was bombed.

[gerryhatrick]

I wouldn't know. But I know and have known A LOT of Lebanese, and their hearts are in Lebanon. I don't think you'll find a lot of Lebanese, if they're honest, who'll disagree with that.

So, it's not that they came from a foreign country and are visiting, it's that they're Lebanese.

Why didn't you specify you were attacking only Lebanese in the first place?

You are so banal. I don't care what colour people's skin is. I care what's in their hearts and souls. Whether your parents were still "British" or were Canadians would depend on them. Some people adapt to Canada. Some choose not to.

Who are you to talk about heart and soul?

The dead included four children.

You are the furthest thing from a Canadian that a human being can reach.

[gerryhatrick]

First: They weren't so much Canadians as they were Canadians of convenience, which is what so many immigrants are today. They came here for a better economic life, but their hearts were in Lebanon. Which is the case, in my experience, with most Lebanese. In this case, their bodies were there too. Tough luck, bad timing. Shouldn't have gone "home" should they?

A prime minister cannot abandon 20,000 Canadian citizens. If they start making exceptions for Lebanon, the precedent is set for elsewhere.

Oh but they aren't Canadians, according to Argus. They're Lebanese. Lebanese are not like others. Argus can see into their heart and souls, and they're not Canadian.

If Argus had his way all Lebanese would have their passports taken away.

[theloniusfleabag]

I wouldn't know. But I know and have known A LOT of Lebanese, and their hearts are in Lebanon. I don't think you'll find a lot of Lebanese, if they're honest, who'll disagree with that.

.

I have to agree with Argus. I have only met a few Lebanese, but they were fiery, passionate and loved their country and their mothers. To insult either one was a legitimate stabbing offence to them.

Argus and Mr. Fortin are right, there is no need to call for 'bringing our people home', not for criticising Israel because some people were Canadian and in the line of fire. The only criticism at this point is that both sides haven't issued a formal declaration of war, though most on both sides consider it one. It would be so much more helpful with the paperwork. All the semantics about 'terrorist methods', 'proportionate reaction', etc go out the window, replaced with 'collateral damage', and hopefully, a winner and loser. It would be nice if both sides could win, maybe someday it will happen.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The only way for both sides to win is to live in peace. Otherwise both sides lose. I expect a losing resolution to this conflict, however this time is a little different. I am not sure that conflict will not spread and engage more nations.

[Wilber]

Jerry is right. A war is not a court room. Its victims do not have due process and innocent people die as a result. It has always been this way. As far a these victims are concerned, it looks like the only thing they are guilty of is taking their vacation in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's my understanding that all the children who died were born in Canada. It could just as easily been a Canadian Jewish family visiting northern Isreal being hit by a Hezbollah rocket.

[Argus]

First: They weren't so much Canadians as they were Canadians of convenience, which is what so many immigrants are today. They came here for a better economic life, but their hearts were in Lebanon. Which is the case, in my experience, with most Lebanese. In this case, their bodies were there too. Tough luck, bad timing. Shouldn't have gone "home" should they?

A prime minister cannot abandon 20,000 Canadian citizens. If they start making exceptions for Lebanon, the precedent is set for elsewhere.

I did not suggest for a moment they be abandoned, nor are they being. As I understand it there are ships on the way there to get them now.

[Argus]

Israel does have a right to it's existence, a right to preserve it's future existence by defending themselves.

What Israel is doing now is a little out of proportion to a kidnapping though.

What about multiple kidnappings and murders, and over a thousand rockets and missiles fired into Israel?

[Argus]

I wouldn't know. But I know and have known A LOT of Lebanese, and their hearts are in Lebanon. I don't think you'll find a lot of Lebanese, if they're honest, who'll disagree with that.

So, it's not that they came from a foreign country and are visiting, it's that they're Lebanese.

Why didn't you specify you were attacking only Lebanese in the first place?

I'm not attacking Lebanese. In fact, I rather admire them, in a way. Lebanon must have quite a hold on the soul for its expatriates to continue to hold such love for it. I'm simply saying they didn't come here because they didn't love Lebanon. They came here for economic reasons. Their first love is still for the land of their birth, the land they were raised in. Is that so complicated you can't understand it? Do you imagine that the moment people get a piece of paper they instantly fall in love with Canada and forget who and what they are?

You are so banal. I don't care what colour people's skin is. I care what's in their hearts and souls. Whether your parents were still "British" or were Canadians would depend on them. Some people adapt to Canada. Some choose not to.

Who are you to talk about heart and soul?

The dead included four children.

You are the furthest thing from a Canadian that a human being can reach.

You are a shallow. callow adolescent full of emotional twaddle without any understanding of the world around you or what makes human beings who they are.

Grow up.

[Argus]

I wouldn't know. But I know and have known A LOT of Lebanese, and their hearts are in Lebanon. I don't think you'll find a lot of Lebanese, if they're honest, who'll disagree with that.

.

I have to agree with Argus. I have only met a few Lebanese, but they were fiery, passionate and loved their country and their mothers. To insult either one was a legitimate stabbing offence to them.

There is such boundless ignorance about immigration and what it means, such utter and appalling lack of understanding or even imagination about the world and its people. Somehow the emotionally stunted have swallowed a line about how all immigrants come to Canada and immediately love it, foresaking all else.

You are who you were born, who you were raised to be. Most immigrants come here not because they do not love their homeland, but for a better economic life, safety, sometimes freedom. As you say, the Lebanese Canadians I know are passionate about their love of Lebanon. They are not unique in that way. the Greeks, the Italians and others are just as passionate about their love of their homelands. I don't blame them for it or expect differently of them.

That does not mean they don't care for Canada, that perhaps they don't even love Canada. But their primary love and loyalty will always be to Lebanon.

This is why it has always been my position that immigrants are not truly Canadian in any but the legal sense. It isn't just because they don't share the same culture, the same common touchstones of being raised here, but because they are infused with the soul of the land of their birth. A Lebanese will always, at heart, be a Lebanese. That does not mean he is without value. It just means he is not a Canadian.

[Argus]

First: They weren't so much Canadians as they were Canadians of convenience, which is what so many immigrants are today. They came here for a better economic life, but their hearts were in Lebanon. Which is the case, in my experience, with most Lebanese. In this case, their bodies were there too. Tough luck, bad timing. Shouldn't have gone "home" should they?

A prime minister cannot abandon 20,000 Canadian citizens. If they start making exceptions for Lebanon, the precedent is set for elsewhere.

Oh but they aren't Canadians, according to Argus. They're Lebanese. Lebanese are not like others. Argus can see into their heart and souls, and they're not Canadian.

If Argus had his way all Lebanese would have their passports taken away.

Hmm, perhaps or perhaps not. But if Argus had his way you'd be in a beanie with a propeller on it holding a fat lollipop and wearing short pants to show everyone what an immature mind you've got under your skull.

[jbg]

You know nothing about these people (the Lebanese Canadians of convenience). They were on vacation, maybe there were children with them who were born in Canada, like I was. It shouldn't make any difference, but maybe there were. Would that change your disgusting attitude towards them?

Your sentiment is just sick. I think if you answered my question about my family honestly you'd say that my family are Canadians because we're white. You're diminishing these people because to you they're less than human. They're Arab.

I've not seem a more depraved post on the internet in a very long time. Congratulations.

If that post be depravity I join it with full vigor. When my forbears came to New York City between roughly 1890 and 1900, from what's now the Czech Republic (then considered Hungary), the Russian Empire (from what's now considered Poland and Ukraine) they dedicated themselves to becoming American. They learned English, and plunged themselves into both their religious lives (more the Russian side) and the civic life of New York City, Yonkers and the Five Towns (in Nassau County, Long Island).

These immigrants have one half of a foot in Canada (or the US). Their agendas are not Canada's (or the US's agenda) but the agenda of radical Muslims from where they came. Thus the Toronto 17. Do any of them know, or care, who Montcalm and Wolfe were? I gbet they don't even know who John Macdonald was. Do they even know who their benefactor, Pierre Trudeau was? Do they care? In no sense, other than by legal definition, are they Canadian.

What Israel is doing now is a little out of proportion to a kidnapping though. All of the bombing they're doing...the descruction of Lebanese infrastructure is NOT classifiable as "defending themselves". Don't parrot Bush and Harper for us please.

****

Yes, blame the victim. Do you agree with Argus also, that these weren't real Canadians?

Out of proportion? They lob rockets into Haifa, and wiping them out is out of proportion. Maybe the people would be less prone to fighting if they were allowed to work and be productive, rather than used as cannon fodder by leaders who want to keep them ignorant, warlike and angry.

[August1991]

My two cents.

1. I don't know how anyone can blame Harper for these deaths. As Wilbur, stated these people were unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is tragic.

2. Argus is correct to refer to some immigrants as "plastic Canadians". It is possible to obtain Canadian citizenship after three years residency and then go anywhere in the world with a Canadian passport. It does not appear that was the case of these people but there are many Lebanese who have done exactly that.

3. I have always wondered why my tax dollars should pay for helping Canadian citizens get out of difficult situations abroad. (We had a similiar discussion about that kid who went to Iraq and then was kidnapped.) I can understand offering consular services abroad but if your house in Canada burns down, the government doesn't build you a new one. Frankly, I have the impression that most of this work is PR for politicians paid for with our money.

Since travel is so cheap now, events such as this with Canadians stranded/endangered abroad are going to increase.

[gerryhatrick]

You are a shallow. callow adolescent full of emotional twaddle without any understanding of the world around you or what makes human beings who they are.

And you are a hateful little racist. I would give you advice, as you presume to give me, but I suspect you are hopeless.

[jdobbin]

My two cents.

1. I don't know how anyone can blame Harper for these deaths. As Wilbur, stated these people were unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is tragic.

2. Argus is correct to refer to some immigrants as "plastic Canadians". It is possible to obtain Canadian citizenship after three years residency and then go anywhere in the world with a Canadian passport. It does not appear that was the case of these people but there are many Lebanese who have done exactly that.

3. I have always wondered why my tax dollars should pay for helping Canadian citizens get out of difficult situations abroad. (We had a similiar discussion about that kid who went to Iraq and then was kidnapped.) I can understand offering consular services abroad but if your house in Canada burns down, the government doesn't build you a new one. Frankly, I have the impression that most of this work is PR for politicians paid for with our money.

Since travel is so cheap now, events such as this with Canadians stranded/endangered abroad are going to increase.

The U.S. and France are moving already to move their ciitizens. The Canadian government now estimates that there are 40,000 Canadians in Lebanon. Even with a dozen ships, the Canadians could not be taken out in a timely fashion.

[gerryhatrick]

Out of proportion? They lob rockets into Haifa, and wiping them out is out of proportion.

Who lobbed rockets? The Lebanese government? No. So why are Lebanese troops being targetted? Why is Lebanese infrastructure being targetted?

And were rockets lobbed into Haifa before Israel began bombing?

In either event, Israel is destroying a great deal of infrastructure in Lebanon...so yes, it is out of proportion. They are far more powerful and it is not a "defense" they are engaging in but rather a punitive move.

Look at their new conditions before they will cease bombing Lebanon: soldiers returned unharmed, Hizbullah disarm, UN resolutions acted upon. Impossible conditions to meet in any reasonable length of time. Lebanon; most agree, cannot control Hisbullah anyway so they have no control over the first condition.

In the meantime Israel reserves the right to bomb away. They bear as much responsibility for the escalation as anyone.