1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[DogOnPorch]

Although the spread of smallpox via blankets was discussed at certain points in history, I don't think it was actually ever carried out. Not that it'd be a terribly effective way to spread it in the first place. Casual face-to-face contact is the real avenue of attack by variola. Clothes and such can carry the virus, but tend only to be infectious if 'wet'...ie containing bodily fluids of someone infected.

The whole native genocide via smallpox overlooks that many millions of Europeans also died from the same disease

[jbg]

You can stop trying to pigeon hole me. I'm not a pigeon ... nor a Marxist. In fact, I pretty much don't belong to anything, on principle.

I don't tihnk that my Marxism has any bearing on my belief in the efficacy of smallpox to destroy 95% of prior inhabitants.

[Visionseeker]

Quite jejune....I suppose then you don't believe there is such a thing as Irish culture...cause very few irish, certainly less than the total number of south americans who speak a native language, speak gaelic....

...and I suppose there is no such thing as German culture, (aside from public nudity and forming human pyramids) cause no one sacrifices humans to Wottan anymore....

Well played... Oh so well played.

For the record, I've been looking to sacrifice to Wottan. I just haven't found a compliant subject. I think my ethics are getting in the way.

[lictor616]

There were many diseases. It was over the course of 100 years, remember.

You can stop trying to pigeon hole me. I'm not a pigeon ... nor a Marxist. In fact, I pretty much don't belong to anything, on principle.

Read some more. You will find that there is considerable agreement among scholars on the 95% extinction of Indigenous Peoples of the Americas between 1492 and 1607.

I'm not surprised nor upset by your emotional reaction to this. That's the problem: We don't know the truth, and we should.

I was posting that to whoever inquired about the 95% number being impossible... perhaps this isn't addressed to the right poster.. ..

[jbg]

Clothes and such can carry the virus, but tend only to be infectious if 'wet'...ie containing bodily fluids of someone infected.

Also European soldiers were no suicide jockeys and someone had to get te infected blankets where needed. The sterile transport business was not quite up to snuff in those days.

[tango]

Also European soldiers were no suicide jockeys and someone had to get te infected blankets where needed. The sterile transport business was not quite up to snuff in those days.

It is reported by Elders who carry the oral history that boatloads and wagonloads of blankets were delivered by either missionaries or soldiers to any village of Indigenous Peoples who would take them, in Canada. Then they got sick all at once, and most died.

It's quite rude to be snide and flippant about genocide.

Edited April 22, 2009 by tango

[DogOnPorch]

Also European soldiers were no suicide jockeys and someone had to get te infected blankets where needed. The sterile transport business was not quite up to snuff in those days.

Knowledge about variola circa 1600-1900 was limited to say the least. Edward Jenner was the first to stumble upon the link between cowpox and variola...and that was just a start on the 'problem'.

[DogOnPorch]

It is reported by Elders who carry the oral history that boatloads and wagonloads of blankets were delivered by either missionaries or soldiers to any village of Indigenous Peoples who would take them, in Canada.

Then they got sick all at once, and most died.

Cite.

[tango]

Cite.

Fair.

I've heard two separate accounts, one in a film - boatloads on the west coast - and one in person - wagonloads in northern Ontario.

However, I can't provide links to either.

But it makes you realize how silly all this kafuffle and 'truther and denial' is over the Euro-history and whether indeed any infection was deliberate.

Indigenous people know their history in North America (and more).

Why didn't some 'scholar' just go and ask them?

[DogOnPorch]

More likely...the poor bastard 'handing out blankets' had the virus and it spread from there.

[DogOnPorch]

Also European soldiers were no suicide jockeys and someone had to get te infected blankets where needed. The sterile transport business was not quite up to snuff in those days.

Indeed; it is far more likely one of those myths twice told then told again.

This is 'The Straight Dope's' call on the deal...

[tango]

and all your directions will be observed.

the following spring smallpox was reported to be raging among the Indians in the vicinity.

What do Canadian law and government policy have to say about Oral histories of Aboriginal Peoples?

I know historians collect them.

later ...

Edited April 22, 2009 by tango

[DogOnPorch]

.already reported.

[lictor616]

It is reported by Elders who carry the oral history that boatloads and wagonloads of blankets were delivered by either missionaries or soldiers to any village of Indigenous Peoples who would take them, in Canada. Then they got sick all at once, and most died.

It's quite rude to be snide and flippant about genocide.

lol i'd love to see a citation for this...

[DogOnPorch]

lol i'd love to see a citation for this...

From the Native Indian persective, it might have well seemed that the Europeans were unaffected by variola. Certain general resistances in the population were present. That didn't mean Europeans didn't get variola, too, though. It just meant all those with no resistance in the European population were already dead from this disease. Circa 1700, nobody knew the dynamics of variola other than that it spread incredibly easily in a group of people. That some back then would muse that blankets (I assume not filthy...otherwise why would anyone want them?) would be an effective medium for it shows how little they did know.

[lictor616]

From the Native Indian persective, it might have well seemed that the Europeans were unaffected by variola. Certain general resistances in the population were present. That didn't mean Europeans didn't get variola, too, though. It just meant all those with no resistance in the European population were already dead from this disease. Circa 1700, nobody knew the dynamics of variola other than that it spread incredibly easily in a group of people. That some back then would muse that blankets (I assume not filthy...otherwise why would anyone want them?) would be an effective medium for it shows how little they did know.

especially when you consider that 7 to 9 months out of the year with freezing temperatures further complicating the distribution of tampered cloaks and covers and killing the virus ...

I don't think that our ancestors would have had that demeanor either. It all seems so counter-productive ...

but leftists love to quote "learned" oral tradition "speakers" ... i.e. glue sniffing natives with chips on their shoulders to defame Europeans...

I agree entirely.

[DogOnPorch]

especially when you consider that 7 to 9 months out of the year with freezing temperatures further complicating the distribution of tampered cloaks and covers and killing the virus ...

I don't think that our ancestors would have had that demeanor either. It all seems so counter-productive ...

but leftists love to quote "learned" oral tradition "speakers" ... i.e. glue sniffing natives with chips on their shoulders to defame Europeans...

I agree entirely.

As mentioned, it is far more likely that variola spread through North America via the 'traditional' and most effective method.

[tango]

lol i'd love to see a citation for this...

I'd love to comply ... but the best I can do is some references for information about the state of the discussion about oral histories...

Treaty Elders of Saskatchewan: Our Dream is that Our Peoples Will One Day be Clearly Recognized as Nations;13

They Will Have Our Words: The Dene Elders Project, Volume 2;14 and

They Knew Both Sides of Medicine: Cree Tales of Curing and Cursing as Told by Alice Ahenakew15

contain important commentary about western Canada, Indigenous research and presentation

techniques, oral history and, as significantly, Canadian constitutional matters.16

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstrea...-DaumShanks.pdf

And the government says ...

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ap/tln-eng.asp

oral history: Evidence taken from the spoken words of people who have knowledge of past events and traditions. This oral history is often recorded on tape and then put in writing. It is used in history books and to document claims.

Edited April 22, 2009 by tango

[lictor616]

I'd love to comply ... but the best I can do is some references for information about the state of the discussion about oral histories...

Treaty Elders of Saskatchewan: Our Dream is that Our Peoples Will One Day be Clearly Recognized as Nations;13

They Will Have Our Words: The Dene Elders Project, Volume 2;14 and

They Knew Both Sides of Medicine: Cree Tales of Curing and Cursing as Told by Alice Ahenakew15

contain important commentary about western Canada, Indigenous research and presentation

techniques, oral history and, as significantly, Canadian constitutional matters.16

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstrea...-DaumShanks.pdf

pure snake oil...

[tango]

I was editing so you missed this:

And the government says ...

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ap/tln-eng.asp

oral history: Evidence taken from the spoken words of people who have knowledge of past events and traditions. This oral history is often recorded on tape and then put in writing. It is used in history books and to document claims.

Edited April 22, 2009 by tango

[benny]

Why is it only up to Europeans to "allocate resources"? What are we lords dispensing food for our brown serfs?

and why make "allocating resources" the priority? why not let those who can GET THEM THEMSELVES?

i'm tired of this "assist-me" mentality...

The liberal mindset includes this negative vs. positive liberties debate.

[benny]

So, you would benefit individuals who themselves have never been wronged? Both our ancestors and the victims' ancestors are long dead.

I'd prefer to deal with the problems of the living than of the dead.

Generations overlap.

[Wild Bill]

So the answer to your question is 'no'.

Well, there ARE other views! Here's one link, just for kicks.

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/Article....aspx?e=1294957

"Little is known about the Neutrals, who were likely massacred or expelled around 1650 by the Iroquois."

Here's another:

http://www.tourniagara.com/history/aboriginals-in-niagara/

"The New York Iroquois, wanted control of the Niagara region for its abundant beaver stocks, and in 1652 they moved into the region destroying the Neutral Indians villages and claiming them as their own. Many of the Neutrals were forced eastward to Albany New York, however the majority of the Neutrals were systematically killed by the Iroquois and they ceased to exist as an Indian Nation by 1653. Surviving Neutrals assimilated with the Seneca and Huron tribes."

Seems there's still some debate.

[benny]

How a few White men could conquer so great country like the Aztec Empire with such ease?

Indians were afraid of horses, guns, cannons, and had a legend about the god of wind Quetzalkoatl (or Quetzalcoatl, taken from Toltecs, name means “feathered serpent” or “plumed serpent”, probably a merge of two deities) - a good white and bearded god, who gave them laws, alphabet and taught many technological inventions, then departed to the East Sea, and who some day would return from East on a “winged ship” to punish bad people and help poor and oppressed (every second Indian culture in Central America had a myth like that, so you may find also another versions of this legend). Therefore at the beginning Cortes was taken for Quetzalkoatl (Quetzalcoatl). And even if Montezuma II was not sure Quetzalkoatl (Quetzalcoatl) really returned, he had to take into account beliefs of his subjects (i.e. people who lived under his rule).

http://www.geocities.com/historymech/rewpcamer.html

[lictor616]

Generations overlap.

Maybe we should give a couple of billions in rice rations to the Chinese for having been oppressed by the mongols then...

How about some plows and tractors for the Ukraine?

you do realize how baseless your argument is right?