1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[lictor616]

- Liberalism is right now the only mindset that can be understood widely allowing humanity to escape raw violence.

- Freedom for most is merely a formal abstraction and science highest achievement is only a suggestion that AGW is real.

Liberal internationalism has seen the worst recorded wars, famine, suffering and senseless destruction then ANY OTHER TIME COMBINED in recorded history...

How anyone with eyes in his head and half a brain can say that it allows "humanity to escape raw violence" is simply beyond my ability to comprehend...

For god's sake! As I type this, 2000 children will die from easily preventable disease, and almost twice as many women will die or suffer serious disability in pregnancy or childbirth for lack of simple remedies and care.

Let me quote from a past essay of mine on just this subject:

"1/United States: Distribution of Wealth

% of US Population % of Wealth Owned

==========================================================

Top 1% 38.1%

Top 96-99% 21.3%

Top 90-95% 11.5%

Top 80-89% 12.5%

Top 60-79% 11.9%

General 40-59% 4.5%

Bottom 40% 0.2%

Source: le monde diplomatique 2003

2/ A U.N. report shows that the income inconsistency among the world 's richest 20 percent of the populace and the poorest 1/5 widened from 30:1 in 1960 to 74:1 in 1997.

3/ About 0.13% of the world’s population controlled 25% of the world’s assets in 2004. Ignacio Ramonet, The politics of hunger, Le Monde diplomatique, November 1998

4/ 20% of the world’s population consume 86% of the world’s goods while 80% of humanity gets just the remainder 14%. (Eileen Alt Powell, Some 600,000 join millionaire ranks in 2004, Associate Press, June 9, 2005)"

This wealth gap continues to amplify with the continued democratization of the world alongside the Liberal/idealist principles which underlines it. With the aforementioned in mind, no pretense of liberty, equality, democracy and togetherness can possibly be entertained.

Your statement about liberalism benny is not only a serious analytical error, but a positively criminal one, with harsh and destructive human penalties.

If you would consider the historical record - you'll find that the more "left wing" an idea: the more meddlesome and usually disastrous it is.

[benny]

"Redress" is not my area, but I think all Canadians should know the real facts.

And the fact is that there were pretty much only explorers and military and traders throughout in North and South America in the 1500's, a hundred years of "conquest", and before settlers and colonies came about, the 95% genocide was already over.

Interesting factoid ... the 'Red Ensign' of Canada is the flag of the British MERCHANT marine.

A social contract is precisely a device that would have allowed Europeans to better allocate resources in between searching for the cause of diseases and financing a gold fever in the New World.

[tango]

sorry then, the Euro-bashers and haters of the West, must take the bitter with the sweet.

"haters of the west" ??

[lictor616]

A social contract is precisely a device that would have allowed Europeans to better allocate resources in between searching for the cause of diseases and financing a gold fever in the New World.

Why is it only up to Europeans to "allocate resources"? What are we lords dispensing food for our brown serfs?

and why make "allocating resources" the priority? why not let those who can GET THEM THEMSELVES?

i'm tired of this "assist-me" mentality...

[lictor616]

"haters of the west" ??

yes tiihihihihi!

People who hate Western Civilization and the ethnicity that created it: so-called "white" Europeans ... you don't think they exist?

[DogOnPorch]

"haters of the west" ??

Richard Dawkins meets a 'hater of the West'.

'Hater of the West' muses of killing 300,000+ with anthrax.

'Hater of the West' tells Arab audiences what he thinks of Australians.

'Haters of the West' chant 'Death to America' before a speech by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. He then goes on to explain how the West created HIV.

Edited April 22, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[tango]

yes tiihihihihi!

People who hate Western Civilization and the ethnicity that created it: so-called "white" Europeans ... you don't think they exist?

Oh I know they exist, but not here.

Edited April 22, 2009 by tango

[lictor616]

Not here.

you really are having a laugh aren't you... I mean this very thread already has numerous slanderous posts about the evils of white people, and their institutions, technology and biology and "da wyte manne's religion" and other assorted specimens of vitriol that are simply aimed to defame and generate hostility and antipathy for "white people" and their civilization.

and I love your typical dismissive, avoiding sneering responses ... "not here" I'm starting to get used to you not being able to do anything but flatly reject without qualifications or explanations.

Edited April 22, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

Richard Dawkins meets a 'hater of the West'.

'Hater of the West' muses of killing 300,000+ with anthrax.

'Hater of the West' tells Arab audiences what he thinks of Australians.

'Haters of the West' chant 'Death to America' before a speech by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. He then goes on to explain how the West created HIV.

wow you can just feel the love can't you!

World peace is JUST around the corner (as soon as all Europeans are genocided of course!)

doesn't that make you excited about the "happiness" being planned for westerners by our dear "fellow humans" as liberals would describe them as they fill our cities with peace loving Muslims, magnanimous mestizos, worshipful Haitians and noble Somalians!

Thank you Dogonporch for showing us, as dispassionately as possible, what kind of thoughts very advanced "multicultural" minds are thinking about these days!

Edited April 22, 2009 by lictor616

[jbg]

Before that Englishmen didn't wash more than once a year for fear of catching the "flux"!

The Europeans in the 1500's had no idea that blankets could spread disease. There's no way they could have deliberately used them as a biological weapon.

*********************

This is why sometimes I just give up listening to "the left" ...

The facts don't get in the way of some people. Lictor66 missed the entire point of my post, which is thtat it wasn't Cortez, but smallpox, that wiped out indiginous people and culture in the Americas. Stupid is as stupid goes.

[tango]

you really are having a laugh aren't you... I mean this very thread already has numerous slanderous posts about the evils of white people, and their institutions, technology and biology and "da wyte manne's religion" and other assorted specimens of vitriol that are simply aimed to defame and generate hostility and antipathy for "white people" and their civilization.

and I love your typical dismissive, avoiding sneering responses ... "not here" I'm starting to get used to you not being able to do anything but flatly reject without qualifications or explanations.

If we don't know our own history, who are we?

If we deny our own history, who are we?

It's not about hate, except in your vitriolic posts.

And keep in mind ... you can attack the post, but not the poster.

[jbg]

Mercantilism was the general mindset of Europeans when they started searching for an alternative route to China. We all know now that this political and economic system was morally flawed. So, the time has come to redress the wrongs done by our ancestors.

So, you would benefit individuals who themselves have never been wronged? Both our ancestors and the victims' ancestors are long dead.

I'd prefer to deal with the problems of the living than of the dead.

[lictor616]

The facts don't get in the way of some people. Lictor66 missed the entire point of my post, which is thtat it wasn't Cortez, but smallpox, that wiped out indiginous people and culture in the Americas. Stupid is as stupid goes.

I didn't say anything about the intentionality or lack thereof of the Spaniards to knowingly or unwittingly spread smallpox. Although the 95% death rate figure is completely untenable... the question is nugatory.

[tango]

The facts don't get in the way of some people. Lictor66 missed the entire point of my post, which is thtat it wasn't Cortez, but smallpox, that wiped out indiginous people and culture in the Americas. Stupid is as stupid goes.

Well, I guess you've missed the point of my posts too, but I'm not going to repeat myself.

[jbg]

I didn't say anything about the intentionality or lack thereof of the Spaniards to knowingly or unwittingly spread smallpox. Although the 95% death rate figure is completely untenable... the question is nugatory.

How is a 95% of higher death rate "untenable"?

[tango]

Although the 95% death rate figure is completely untenable...

Source?

[lictor616]

If we don't know our own history, who are we?

If we deny our own history, who are we?

It's not about hate, except in your vitriolic posts.

And keep in mind ... you can attack the post, but not the poster.

the egalitarian, ONE WORLD, claptrap you simultaneously promote?

the problem that you MAKE UP history and then proclaim that Westerners and their unique civilization are cancers on the commonwealth of humanity.

If your version of history (that whites the only malevolent and harm causing people in the races of the world in recorded history) and the prime "doers of evil" then how can one believe in

Europeans, by the irrevocable law of nature fought for limited resources (as every other living organism must) in a competing globe.

However you may think this bad and wicked- it is no different the what the Mongols at one time did, or the Carthaginians, the Ancient Egyptians, the babylonians, the Chinese, the Japanese, etc etc ad infinitam...

[tango]

So, you would benefit individuals who themselves have never been wronged? Both our ancestors and the victims' ancestors are long dead.

I'd prefer to deal with the problems of the living than of the dead.

I don't entirely agree, because I do believe it is important to know and understand our own history in relation to other peoples. After all, we do continue to reap the benefits of the brutal conquest of North America today, every day of our lives.

Canada's economy, for example, is entirely dependent on resources from land held 'in trust' for Indigenous Peoples, and most still don't get a say in the use of that land, or a share in revenues. This despite treaties and rulings of the Supreme Court in their favour, which our local, provincial and federal governments continue to ignore.

These are the problems of the living, so I guess I do agree, but it's absolutely necessary, imo, for us to understand and respect the historical context.

Edited April 22, 2009 by tango

[lictor616]

Source?

Fenner, Frank (1988). Smallpox and Its Eradication (History of International Public Health, No. 6). Geneva: World Health Organization.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/9241561106.pdf

Smallpox killed Europeans, africans (61 000 years ago it CAME from africa) and it destroyed huge swaths of Asians, and every race known to man.

In all cases smallpox never was able to completely eradicate even one village. a 95% infection AND DEATH rate is untenable... except perhaps if the Aztecs had a very different genetic makeup.... which you would probably deny because of your belief in Marxist or rather "marxian" egalitarianism (a religious marxism).

and immunologists will tell you that a death rate higher then 30% for smallpox has NEVER BEEN RECORDED.

Your 95% number is only meant to defame Europe's outright conquest of the land using a tiny number of themselves and a few thousand Caribbean Indians. as is evidenced by your use of quotation marks for the word "conquest"

you want to make it appear as if Europeans did nothing to take the land... smallpox civilized, conquered, innovated and built and traveled Spaniards ...

[tango]

the egalitarian, ONE WORLD, claptrap you simultaneously promote?

where did I say that? (cite please)

the problem that you MAKE UP history

where? (cite please, and prove me wrong)

and then proclaim that Westerners and their unique civilization are cancers on the commonwealth of humanity.

Actually I'm not a cancer, I'm a leo.

(Sorry. Couldn't resist. Your claims are so utterly outrageous.)

If your version of history (that whites the only malevolent and harm causing people in the races of the world in recorded history) and the prime "doers of evil"

Where? (cite please)

I never said that. However, we ARE the ones who are accountable for our own actions, and we are accountable for the history and the present state of the Americas ... because we live here and benefit from the land 'acquired' by conquest.

I see no value in denying and not knowing our own history. How can we then make any sense of our present?

then how can one believe in Europeans, by the irrevocable law of nature fought for limited resources (as every other living organism must) in a competing globe. However you may think this bad and wicked- it is no different the what the Mongols at one time did, or the Carthaginians, the Ancient Egyptians, the babylonians, the Chinese, the Japanese, etc etc ad infinitam...

You think maybe we take just a bit more resources than we need? I do.

I also think a very few people take a whole lot more than they need, and we all suffer for it. There's your evil: greed, today known as 'corporate' America.

Just as it was during the 100 year long 'conquest' of North America. hmm ... Some things don't change.

It isn't about us. We're just the little people. (Don't let them use you.)

But I'll be damned if I'll line up to salute corporate greed and the ongoing destruction of the Americas. :angry:

Edited April 22, 2009 by tango

[lictor616]

I don't entirely agree, because I do believe it is important to know and understand our own history in relation to other peoples. After all, we do continue to reap the benefits of the brutal conquest of North America today, every day of our lives.

Canada's economy, for example, is entirely dependent on resources from land held 'in trust' for Indigenous Peoples, and most still don't get a say in the use of that land, or a share in revenues. This despite treaties and rulings of the Supreme Court in their favour, which our local, provincial and federal governments continue to ignore.

These are the problems of the living, so I guess I do agree, but it's absolutely necessary, imo, for us to understand and respect the historical context.

Canada's economy would be an asian colony if the Europeans hadn't taken it first.

The natives would now own NOTHING - and their economy would still be largely composed of fur trading today without outside intervention. The indians never did or indeed: could have made any impact on the land and its resources because they possessed a stone age culture without the know how or technology to maintain more than a scarce and rudimentary (to not say primitive) culture and economy.

With Japan or Russia's or China's relative proximity to north America, what on earth makes you think that the indians wouldn't have suffered the same fate (if not FAR FAR FAR WORSE) then the one they did at the hands of europeans? Remember what the chinese did to Tibetans? Imagine what the INUITS would have suffered!

Of course the reason is that you see Europeans as the only malevolent people extant in the world. You're incapable of seeing the real issues.

[lictor616]

where did I say that? (cite please)

where? (cite please, and prove me wrong)

Actually I'm not a cancer, I'm a leo.

(Sorry. Couldn't resist. Your claims are so utterly outrageous.)

Where? (cite please)

You think maybe we take a bit more resources than we need? I do.

I also think a very few people take a whole lot more than they need, and we all suffer for it. There's your evil: greed, today known as 'corporate' America.

Just as it was during the 100 year long 'conquest' of North America. hmm ...

It isn't about us. We're just the little people.

But I'll be damned if I'll line up to salute corporate greed, as the destruction of the Americas continues. :angry:

corporate greed? we're talking about pre-industrial Europeans...

not the crypto communist liberals of today (whom you seem in perfect ideological lockstep with)

ours is a leftist economy now... right wingers don't run the show at all... liberal internationalism is the great spoiler of the world.

Edited April 22, 2009 by lictor616

[jbg]

The natives would now own NOTHING - and their economy would still be largely composed of fur trading today without outside intervention. The indians never did or indeed: could have made any impact on the land and its resources because they possessed a stone age culture without the know how or technology to maintain more than a scarce and rudimentary (to not say primitive) culture and economy.

The FN's were plenty good at setting forest-clearing fires and driving buffalo over cliffs to kill them. In fact the huge herds of buffalo and the explosion in numbers of their predators, mainly wolves, may have been due to the smallpox deaths of the U.S.'s Native Americans from smallpox.

With Japan or Russia's or China's relative proximity to north America, what on earth makes you think that the indians wouldn't have suffered the same fate (if not FAR FAR FAR WORSE) then the one they did at the hands of europeans? Remember what the chinese did to Tibetans? Imagine what the INUITS would have suffered!

Of course the reason is that you see Europeans as the only malevolent people extant in the world. You're incapable of seeing the real issues.

The Chinese and Japanese are indeed beneficent occupiers.

[tango]

Fenner, Frank (1988). Smallpox and Its Eradication (History of International Public Health, No. 6). Geneva: World Health Organization.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/9241561106.pdf

Smallpox killed Europeans, africans (61 000 years ago it CAME from africa) and it destroyed huge swaths of Asians, and every race known to man.

In all cases smallpox never was able to completely eradicate even one village. a 95% infection AND DEATH rate is untenable... except perhaps if the Aztecs had a very different genetic makeup.... which you would probably deny because of your belief in Marxist or rather "marxian" egalitarianism (a religious marxism).

and immunologists will tell you that a death rate higher then 30% for smallpox has NEVER BEEN RECORDED.

Your 95% number is only meant to defame Europe's outright conquest of the land using a tiny number of themselves and a few thousand Caribbean Indians. as is evidenced by your use of quotation marks for the word "conquest"

you want to make it appear as if Europeans did nothing to take the land... smallpox civilized, conquered, innovated and built and traveled Spaniards ...

There were many diseases. It was over the course of 100 years, remember.

You can stop trying to pigeon hole me. I'm not a pigeon ... nor a Marxist. In fact, I pretty much don't belong to anything, on principle.

Read some more. You will find that there is considerable agreement among scholars on the 95% extinction of Indigenous Peoples of the Americas between 1492 and 1607.

I'm not surprised nor upset by your emotional reaction to this. That's the problem: We don't know the truth, and we should.

[lictor616]

The FN's were plenty good at setting forest-clearing fires and driving buffalo over cliffs to kill them. In fact the huge herds of buffalo and the explosion in numbers of their predators, mainly wolves, may have been due to the smallpox deaths of the U.S.'s Native Americans from smallpox.

The Chinese and Japanese are indeed beneficent occupiers.

you know while reading your simpering nonsense, I was reminded of the following immortal and incontrovertibly true words of Thucydides:

"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

And then it got me thinking about Caledonia and Nunavut and a native welfare protest that occurred in Montreal a few months back

"It is a general rule of human nature that people despise those who treat them well, and look up to those who make no concessions."

maybe that explains why modern Westerners are so hated today...

next you'll be saying smallpox "un-invented" the natives' technology... leftist blame shifting as usual.

Edited April 22, 2009 by lictor616