1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really

[lictor616]

Depending on which side of his mouth he is talking from, Lictor doesn't call him a political failure either...

perhaps not "political failure" ...certainly military failure though...

correct he was a political genius, and captivating orator- who blundered a lot...

[jbg]

Still are....now we call them "legal abortions".

oh woow... quite the feat in mental gymnastics there...

as if a mangled piece of unconscious tissue is equivalent to a fully conscious human...

And the abortion controversy has what to do with 1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really a Paradise?(link)

[ToadBrother]

perhaps not "political failure" ...certainly military failure though...

correct he was a political genius, and captivating orator- who blundered a lot...

And also was responsible for the deaths of somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 million Jews and about that many others (including Gypsies, Poles, Communists, Jehovah's Witnesses and so forth).

Whatever accomplishments Corporal Hitler may have made, his regime is pretty much considered one of the most evil in history (although I don't think enough attention is given to other mass murderers like Mao or Stalin, though to some degree you have to give Mao the benefit of the doubt, as the whole system under his rule was populated with people too terrified to tell him the truth).

[bush_cheney2004]

And the abortion controversy has what to do with 1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really a Paradise?(link)

Absolutely nothing save for the continuum of "human sacrifice" in the Pre-Columbian Americas.

[lictor616]

Absolutely nothing save for the continuum of "human sacrifice" in the Pre-Columbian Americas.

"Human" ... except a fetus is not quite "human".

[jbg]

And the abortion controversy has what to do with 1491, or, Was Pre-European "White Man" America Really a Paradise?(link)

Absolutely nothing save for the continuum of "human sacrifice" in the Pre-Columbian Americas.

My point is that this is "thread drift" on steroids....and more "thread drift" while I was posting:

"Human" ... except a fetus is not quite "human".

Edited April 29, 2009 by jbg

[benny]

Still are....now we call them "legal abortions".

Bush and Cheney were not afraid of overpopulating America because they needed so much soldiers to wage all their pompous wars.

[bush_cheney2004]

My point is that this is "thread drift" on steroids....and more "thread drift" while I was posting:

Lots of thread drift around here....seize the day.

[benny]

In 1491, overpopulation was already a problem in Europe.

[ToadBrother]

In 1491, overpopulation was already a problem in Europe.

Not according to what I know. My understanding is that by 1500, Europe had finally recovered to the levels of the 12th century, due in large part to the massive die-off from the Black Death and associated plagues.

What really drove European expansion was, in fact, that every die-off, which essentially undermined the feudal system, created an upwardly mobile working class, and created a huge number of new opportunities for trade and commerce.

[benny]

Not according to what I know. My understanding is that by 1500, Europe had finally recovered to the levels of the 12th century, due in large part to the massive die-off from the Black Death and associated plagues.

What really drove European expansion was, in fact, that every die-off, which essentially undermined the feudal system, created an upwardly mobile working class, and created a huge number of new opportunities for trade and commerce.

What really drove European expansion in the New World was a plague much worse than the Black Death: auri sacra fames.

[jbg]

What really drove European expansion in the New World was a plague much worse than the Black Death: auri sacra fames.

Why not write in the Canadian language rather than Latin?

[benny]

Why not write in the Canadian language rather than Latin?

There are two official Canadian languages and one of them is directly linked to Latin.

[Wild Bill]

There are two official Canadian languages and one of them is directly linked to Latin.

Actually, they're BOTH directly linked to Latin! I took 4 years of Latin in high school, just before it was dropped from the Ontario ciriculum.

But I shouldn't pick apart your model instead of your point!

[benny]

Actually, they're BOTH directly linked to Latin! I took 4 years of Latin in high school, just before it was dropped from the Ontario ciriculum.

But I shouldn't pick apart your model instead of your point!

Christopher Columbus' schooling was entirely in Latin.

[jbg]

There are two official Canadian languages and one of them is directly linked to Latin.

I'm fro the U.S. and don't know much about Canada. Don't most of you speak in Canadian?

[Wild Bill]

I'm fro the U.S. and don't know much about Canada. Don't most of you speak in Canadian?

Yeah, most of us do but some of the posters on this board speak it doubleplusungood!

[benny]

I'm fro the U.S. and don't know much about Canada. Don't most of you speak in Canadian?

For this thread what you should know is the reason why "Latin" appears in the name Latin America.

[jbg]

Yeah, most of us do but some of the posters on this board speak it doubleplusungood!

Chretien and Dion are well-known people for whom Canadian was their primary language.

[benny]

Chretien and Dion are well-known people for whom Canadian was their primary language.

There are Canadians and Canadiens (French) like there are Christians and Chrétiens.

[jbg]

Thread contnues here (link).

[yarg]

I am wondering, since the concept of a virus causing diseases wasn't known until the 1700's how did europeans intentionally infect aboriginals 200 years before that? Unintentional intentional germ warfare? "Hey so we don't have the first clue where disease comes from but these blankets look suspicious, lets use em to kill the natives!" Not only that, but you would think that if the europeans knew the blankets were a source of disease that they wouldn't have handled them, but then if they knew they had a greater immunity than the natives it might not have been an issue. But of course to believe they knew any of that is lunacy. You might want to consider the plague outbreaks in england and france in the 16 and 1700's before you start squawking about germ warfare 200 years earlier, they didn't know enough about disease to prevent mass deaths of their own citizens let alone use disease as a purposeful weapon 200 years before.

[Shwa]

I am wondering, since the concept of a virus causing diseases wasn't known until the 1700's how did europeans intentionally infect aboriginals 200 years before that? Unintentional intentional germ warfare? "Hey so we don't have the first clue where disease comes from but these blankets look suspicious, lets use em to kill the natives!" Not only that, but you would think that if the europeans knew the blankets were a source of disease that they wouldn't have handled them, but then if they knew they had a greater immunity than the natives it might not have been an issue. But of course to believe they knew any of that is lunacy. You might want to consider the plague outbreaks in england and france in the 16 and 1700's before you start squawking about germ warfare 200 years earlier, they didn't know enough about disease to prevent mass deaths of their own citizens let alone use disease as a purposeful weapon 200 years before.

Did whites ever give Native Americans blankets infected with smallpox?

Germ Theory of Disease

Microorganisms were first directly observed by Anton van Leeuwenhoek, who is considered the father of microbiology. Building on Leeuwenhoek's work, physician Nicolas Andry argued in 1700 that microorganisms he called "worms" were responsible for smallpox and other diseases.

[Tilter]

mikedavidoo said

I'm sure natives back then weren't whining and crying about saving trees and such. They were probably too busy enjoying new found riches and a new quality of life.

yeah, like beads and disease

[yarg]

Did whites ever give Native Americans blankets infected with smallpox?

Germ Theory of Disease

And none of that was accepted or even common knowledge until well after the disease outbreaks killed so many, revisionist history, did the blankets carry the disease, maybe, were they used as a purposeful weapon or war or genocide? There is zero evidence to support that, you would think that we did enough bad things to native populations around the world without this folklore being treated as fact.