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Doom and Gloom forecast for Canada


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What federal controls are you making reference to? Have you got a link?

It is the federal government that is totally neglegent in allowing large numbers of immigrants into the country totally disconcerning themselves from the fact 43% of all of Canada's immigrants settle in Toronto.

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/006927.html

It's in this very website's information: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/gener...-provinces.html

Once again, has Ontario asked the federal government to assist in ensuring Toronto is not swamped? Please provide links.

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Manitoba is doing a fine job of bringing in new immigrants at the moment. We could use more but we need to press the federal government to expedite provincial nominee candidates.
According to the Constitution, immigration is a shared jurisdiction. Any province can have "nominees" as you call them - in effect, any provincial government can select its immigrants. It's another matter whether the immigrant will live in the province after arrival in Canada. Heck, it's even a moot question whether the immigration authorities will even know where the immigrant is.

dobbin, the Manitoba programme is small and I wonder how many immigrants are still in Manitoba, let's say, faive years after arrival.

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Leafless, how do you propose we control where immigrants live? Do you want us to have a police state with internal passbooks and registration at the local authorities?

In simple terms, we cannot dicate where an immigrant will live and potential immigrants can promise to immigrate to Flin Flon and then change their minds.

There are controls. The point system makes it easier for immigrants to move to places outside major cities. The problem is that provinces have to be involved through the provincial nominee program to get them jobs and settle them into communities. It is working in some other provinces already. Is Ontario doing that or is it their goal to grow Toronto?

Immigrants can move once they have come to Canada, just like other immigrants but generally when they have a job within a community, they sponsor their families to that community. Historically, that is how various areas of the country have grown. Rural Ontario is dying. Time for Ontario to help facilitate immigration into those areas with the help of those communities.

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According to the Constitution, immigration is a shared jurisdiction. Any province can have "nominees" as you call them - in effect, any provincial government can select its immigrants. It's another matter whether the immigrant will live in the province after arrival in Canada. Heck, it's even a moot question whether the immigration authorities will even know where the immigrant is.

dobbin, the Manitoba programme is small and I wonder how many immigrants are still in Manitoba, let's say, faive years after arrival.

I'd be surprised at how many of them leave within five years. The largest influx have been German speaking immigrants who settle in prosperous Mennonite territory where there are other German speakers. They have jobs and larger than average families. It is perfect place for them.

There has been an influx of Filipinos sponsored in as well. They are filling jobs and have a large community to settle it.

There have been British farmers being sponsored in.

All of these immigrants have communities working to settle them in, train them and keep them in the community.

It is not with new immigrants that Manitoba has a problem maintaining its population. It is with the new grad who was born in Canada. They find the lure of Toronto and Calgary hard to resist.

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250,000 new immigrants each and every year, most from third world countries with poor English skills and often poor job skills and education, and cultures which demand high birth rates. What does that add up to?

Whenever Argus trots out his 250,000 number, I am forced to provide some facts which I have posted elsewhere:

In general (averaged over the past few years), we take in around 200,000 immigrants per year. Of these, about half (100,000) are admitted in the category of skilled workers, about a third (70,000) as family class and the rest (30,000) as refugees. Be cautious however. The 100,000 in the skilled worker category include dependants (children, spouse) so in fact, we only accept about 30,000 skilled workers.

In addition, Canada loses about 70,000 every year through emigration (primarily to the US). Statcan data

Some basic statistics can be found here Citizenship Canada.

On balance, we accept about 130,000 net migrants every year.

----

We cannot reduce migrants in the family class category. We could (and should) alter the criteria for skilled workers so that ability to adapt to Canadian society is a major criteria. We should tighten up the definition of a dependent. (At present, any child below the age of 22 or any child who is still a student gets to immigrate along with mom or dad.) Finally, we simply must change the way we accept refugees.

It is ironic that the Liberal government rewrote the Immigration Act in 2001 and changed its name to the "Immigration and Refugee Protection Act". I'd be willing to bet that few (if any) people on this forum (for the most part political junkies) were ever consulted in any way about the new Act - and I'd bet that many didn't even know that the feds changed the Act.

It is simply sad that so soon after enacting a new immigration act, we are discussing immigration problems. I used to believe (and I still suspect) that Ottawa was a bureaucracy completely out of control. It writes legislation of no earthly value. Maybe the problem was the federal Liberal Party. Time will tell.

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I'd be surprised at how many of them leave within five years. The largest influx have been German speaking immigrants who settle in prosperous Mennonite territory where there are other German speakers. They have jobs and larger than average families. It is perfect place for them.
In 2002, Canada welcomed a total of 228,575 immigrants. Manitoba received 4,594 newcomers representing 2.01 per cent of the national intake.
Link

Of the roughly 4,500 immigrants to Manitoba, about 1500 were accepted as "provincial nominees" (500 as main applicant and 1000 as dependents). This is peanuts. If any province were to try to expand such a programme, immigrants would just lie on their application form and then go elsewhere on arrival.

And I'd still be curious to see residency stats about these 1500 people several years from now.

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Another immigration thread/rant started by Argus. Righttttt.

I'll make you a deal, August. How about Quebec gives up its language laws and we settle 150,000 non French speakers in your province every year. Then I'll stop complaining about immigration.

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Well maybe not screw business, but look man some of these folks have had it pretty rough in this life and moving to Canada gives them a shot a something better.

Immigration is supposed to benefit Canada, not foreigners. I don't expect our politicians, who I pay, to put the interests of foreigners ahead of the interests of Canada. Anyway, billions have had it "pretty rough". Do you propose to bring them all here?

What on earth is wrong with that? We need workers, and they are willing to work, so what is the problem I say.

Gee, crime, poverty, pollution, urban sprawl, the disapearance of farmland, the collapse of our social service net, transportation systems and health services. For a start.

Urban sprawl is a problem for the folks living in the big cities true enough. Having said that I don't think immigrants from some brutal former country are really going to make it a whole lot worse, and the point needs to be made that you guys should deal with that problem anyway.
Have a look at cities with high numbers of immigrants. Have a look at the crime and who's commiting it. Have a look at the social service net, the public housing, the slums, and who's in it.
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Manitoba is doing a fine job of bringing in new immigrants at the moment. We could use more but we need to press the federal government to expedite provincial nominee candidates.
According to the Constitution, immigration is a shared jurisdiction. Any province can have "nominees" as you call them - in effect, any provincial government can select its immigrants.

Not quite. Only one province gets to select and control immigration: Quebec. Ontario asked for the same deal a year or two back and the feds refused. Then again, Quebec's determination to only accept French speakers hasn't exactly gotten them the best of the best.

In 1976, when the all-but-separatist Parti Québécois won provincial control, it appointed as its first immigration minister a priest and retired missionary to Africa, Jacques Couture. Mr. Couture was determined to do two things: bring more French-speakers to Quebec and open the province to the poor and suffering. In what could not have been a more disastrous choice, he decided on Haiti as the perfect source for new Quebeckers. Haiti was French-speaking, in a primitive way, and it was the most desperately poor, backward place in the hemisphere. Haitians would provide both a fresh dose of francophone vigor and an opportunity for white Quebeckers to open their hearts to the downtrodden.

Mr. Couture worked his “wretched refuse of your distant shores” policy with a vigor that would have astounded Emma Lazarus. Rather than take in the best Haitians he sought the worst. Full-blooded Africans were poorer than mulattoes, so his policy favored the blackest and the poorest. New Canadian citizens suddenly began to appear with legal first names like Pas-Besoin (not needed) or Assez-Filles (enough girls). These are names that Haitians give an unwanted child when they already have seven or eight they can't feed.

The population of Montreal, where most of the Haitians ended up, is now 30 percent non-white. Thanks to Mr. Couture, it got an instant underclass that behaves almost exactly like its counterpart in the United States. Black neighborhoods have become violent, crime-ridden, drug-sodden slums. French newspapers have invented a new word to describe the transformation: se bronxifier, or to become like the Bronx. Without so much as a hint of the “400 years of slavery and oppression” that is supposed to account for black failure in the United States, Canadian blacks are in exactly the same social and economic position as their brothers to the south.

Other aspects of Mr. Couture's experiment mirror the United States. Although Quebec could not possibly have recruited more poverty- and crime-prone immigrants, their failures are inevitably blamed on white racism. Whenever a white policeman shoots a black criminal, for example, there are shouts of “racism.”

Journalists and even the police have been so intimidated by charges of racism that it is nearly impossible to report on the extent of black crime in Quebec. In one notorious case last fall, police arrested hundreds of Haitians who had forced women into a huge prostitution business. The women invariably white—were treated abominably. Some were branded like cattle. Others were forced to eat their own menstrual tampons. Some of the Haitians liked to shove a gun barrel up a woman's vagina and threaten to shoot her.

Police are normally eager to publicize big successes, but not in the charged, whites-are-always-to-blame racial atmosphere of Quebec. As the Montreal Gazette, which finally broke the whole sordid story explained (11/17/90), “police say they could hardly afford to call a news conference to say they had been arresting young Haitians by the hundreds.”

This is an old article, but still awfully timely.

Great White North

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Immigrants can move once they have come to Canada, just like other immigrants but generally when they have a job within a community, they sponsor their families to that community. Historically, that is how various areas of the country have grown. Rural Ontario is dying. Time for Ontario to help facilitate immigration into those areas with the help of those communities.

Rural Ontario is dying? Why? Because it doesn't have enough slums or drive-bys? Because it's kids can go to school without being intimidated and beaten by immigrant gangs? Because the teacher in their classes can speak English and not have to stop every thirty seconds to try to get the 50% of the class who don't speak English very well to understand?

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In 2002, Canada welcomed a total of 228,575 immigrants. Manitoba received 4,594 newcomers representing 2.01 per cent of the national intake.

Link

Of the roughly 4,500 immigrants to Manitoba, about 1500 were accepted as "provincial nominees" (500 as main applicant and 1000 as dependents). This is peanuts. If any province were to try to expand such a programme, immigrants would just lie on their application form and then go elsewhere on arrival.

And I'd still be curious to see residency stats about these 1500 people several years from now.

Those were 2002 results which indeed were pitiful. The nominee program was in its infancy in the province. By 2003, there was a 40% increase from the previous year and Manitoba is trying to get the numbers up to 10,000 a year.

Manitoba takes in 70% of provincial nominees. That is what's crazy. Other provinces could take in a lot more as they direct immigrants to where jobs and communities await them.

The tracking of nominees is being done in the lastest statistics report for Manitoba but the preliminary results is that retention from 1998 on has been excellent. It is one reason why business and communties want to increase numbers.

And even if nominees leave, they are more likely to go to Alberta rather than Ontario if statistics on overall numbers are to be believed. And Alberta is desperate for workers.

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Rural Ontario is dying? Why? Because it doesn't have enough slums or drive-bys? Because it's kids can go to school without being intimidated and beaten by immigrant gangs? Because the teacher in their classes can speak English and not have to stop every thirty seconds to try to get the 50% of the class who don't speak English very well to understand?

What is the solution for rural Ontario then with a demographic that sees their population decline to ghost town status?

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Not quite. Only one province gets to select and control immigration: Quebec. Ontario asked for the same deal a year or two back and the feds refused. Then again, Quebec's determination to only accept French speakers hasn't exactly gotten them the best of the best.

So your solution is to eliminate all immigration?

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250,000 new immigrants each and every year, most from third world countries with poor English skills and often poor job skills and education, and cultures which demand high birth rates. What does that add up to?

Whenever Argus trots out his 250,000 number, I am forced to provide some facts which I have posted elsewhere:

In general (averaged over the past few years), we take in around 200,000 immigrants per year. Of these, about half (100,000) are admitted in the category of skilled workers, about a third (70,000) as family class and the rest (30,000) as refugees. Be cautious however. The 100,000 in the skilled worker category include dependants (children, spouse) so in fact, we only accept about 30,000 skilled workers.

In addition, Canada loses about 70,000 every year through emigration (primarily to the US). Statcan data

On balance, we accept about 130,000 net migrants every year.

August thinks it's great that skilled engineers, doctors, pharmacists, computer scientists and architects who grew up in Canada are moving to the US while Canada is filling up with illiterate African goat herders, Arab and Pakistani Muslim fundamentalists, Jamaican and Haitian drug dealers and gang members, and Chinese farm peasants.

But then, these people aren't flooding into Quebec. Because Quebec won't let them in. Quebec, in order to help protect its culture, only allows in French speaking immigrants, and requires they attend French schools. And it takes a miniscule number of immigrants as compared to Ontario. August doesn't care about English Canada's culture. Then again, neither do the political and cultural leaders of English Canada.

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Rural Ontario is dying? Why? Because it doesn't have enough slums or drive-bys? Because it's kids can go to school without being intimidated and beaten by immigrant gangs? Because the teacher in their classes can speak English and not have to stop every thirty seconds to try to get the 50% of the class who don't speak English very well to understand?

What is the solution for rural Ontario then with a demographic that sees their population decline to ghost town status?

Perhaps you'd like to tell me when this "ghost town" status is going to arrive? Link to these demographics, if you please.

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Not quite. Only one province gets to select and control immigration: Quebec. Ontario asked for the same deal a year or two back and the feds refused. Then again, Quebec's determination to only accept French speakers hasn't exactly gotten them the best of the best.

So your solution is to eliminate all immigration?

We have no real need for immigration. There are no logical economic or demographic arguments to support anything near the level of immigration we now have, much less the types of immigrants we're getting.

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Perhaps you'd like to tell me when this "ghost town" status is going to arrive? Link to these demographics, if you please.

Why don't you show me the links to where smaller communties in Ontario are growing?

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We have no real need for immigration. There are no logical economic or demographic arguments to support anything near the level of immigration we now have, much less the types of immigrants we're getting.

I'd like to see the report that says Canada doesn't need any immigrants. Is it a government report? A business report? A think tank? What are the numbers that says Canada can do without immigrants entirely. And do you mean refugees as well?

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Manitoba takes in 70% of provincial nominees. That is what's crazy. Other provinces could take in a lot more as they direct immigrants to where jobs and communities await them.

Ontario has about 200,000 people on welfare. Wouldn't it make sense to ship you them instead?

We'll pay the train fare.

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What federal controls are you making reference to? Have you got a link?

It is the federal government that is totally neglegent in allowing large numbers of immigrants into the country totally disconcerning themselves from the fact 43% of all of Canada's immigrants settle in Toronto.

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/006927.html

It's in this very website's information: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features/gener...-provinces.html

Once again, has Ontario asked the federal government to assist in ensuring Toronto is not swamped? Please provide links.

The ONLY commitment on the part of the federal government PERTAINING to provinces is:

" A commitment, on the part of the federal government, to work with the provinces to help INTEGRATE immigrants into Canadian society". For starters the feds are not applying equal treatment for all provinces as Quebec receives more money per immigrant than any other province in Canada and of course Ontario does not get to choose it's immigrants.

This has got nothing to do with allowing large numbers of immigrants to settle where ever they wish, besides provinces hands are tied by being hampered with federal immigrant legislation:

" Ensuring the Act is applied in a way that is consistent with the principles outlined in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, including the principles of equality, freedom from discrimination, and the equality of French and English as Canada’s two official languages;

Respecting Canada’s multicultural character;

Supporting the development of minority language communities in Canada ;

Ensuring the Act is applied in a way that meets Canada’s international obligations;"

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Another immigration thread/rant started by Argus. Righttttt.
You don't seem to understand that it is NOT Toronto having problems adjusting to it's huge increase of immigrants but rather the federal government is at fault for allowing huge numbers of immigrants choosing Toronto as the place to live.

There are no federal controls.

Leafless, how do you propose we control where immigrants live? Do you want us to have a police state with internal passbooks and registration at the local authorities?

In simple terms, we cannot dicate where an immigrant will live and potential immigrants can promise to immigrate to Flin Flon and then change their minds.

Give me a break!

What Canada is doing is not what you would call normal immigration.

Canada is conducting MASS IMMIGRATION a lot of it from third world countries and countries where degrees are not recognized on the same level as Canadian qualifications.

It definitely should be federal responsibility to screen and allocate these unqualified immigrants and send them on their way to where the jobs are, in a compulsory manner.

I consider it deplorable to bring unqualified immigrants into Canada, some who can't even speak English, some uncivilized by our standards and set them off any where they desire or let them choose where it's culturally acceptable or where climatic conditons are more favourable.

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What is with you people on this forum! In a country that claims a multicultural heritage I am hearing a hell of a lot of racist like commentary. The more I hear from you people in central and eastern Canada the more I want to distance myself for you guys. Its like a crime to some of you that because we live in a nanny state that some of our best trained and educated citizens move to the states where they can make some money and live as they choose to! You are not happy for them, and congratulating them for advancing themselves instead you worry about the pressures on the socialist programs we are being taxed to death for! Why do you think they left in the first place, better pay and less taxes!

You don't want some low life from another country to come here and bust their butts for minimum wage to make a better life for themselves. Instead you want to keep Canada for Canadians! Good Lord you people deserve to keep this nation all to yourselves!

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What is with you people on this forum! In a country that claims a multicultural heritage I am hearing a hell of a lot of racist like commentary. The more I hear from you people in central and eastern Canada the more I want to distance myself for you guys. Its like a crime to some of you that because we live in a nanny state that some of our best trained and educated citizens move to the states where they can make some money and live as they choose to! You are not happy for them, and congratulating them for advancing themselves instead you worry about the pressures on the socialist programs we are being taxed to death for! Why do you think they left in the first place, better pay and less taxes!

You don't want some low life from another country to come here and bust their butts for minimum wage to make a better life for themselves. Instead you want to keep Canada for Canadians! Good Lord you people deserve to keep this nation all to yourselves!

Here, here. At least on the stand on immigration. <heh>

As for the brain drain, there have been examples in the last year that it is starting to flow back to Canada. It will be interesting to see the total numbers next year but some all star scientists and doctors are making their way back to Canada because of favourable research conditions and well funded institutes.

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Whether or not an individual stays or leaves is up to them, its a free country. Or at least it should be for crying out loud.

You know this goofy country of ours still hasn't figured out that us low life citizens are not happy about losing our property rights in that scap of paper we call a constitution. Its kinda hard for them to figure out that people coming to Canada might actual want to go to the places that have a ton of services just around the next corner and a bunch of low cost housing. Go figure.............

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