Six Nations Crisis- “Canada’s Pandora’s Box?”

[NativeCharm]

Six Nations Crisis- “Canada’s Pandora’s Box?”

With today’s increasing and aggressive actions by Native people to obtain concrete resolutions to land claims, will we see an increase of racism and hostility or an increased awareness of our Native people and Canada’s misinformed history?

The Caledonia carnival of controversy has been stirring up debates all over the country. While some discussions are heated with hostile racism, others have steered to a new road of informative education that many Canadian citizens were completely unaware of. See example of other thread click here

I felt it was necessary to start this thread in a national header as the issues underlying the Caledonia situation and the Six Nations crisis stem from the lack of knowledge in the following areas, treaties, taxation and the constitutional rights of Aboriginal people. Hopefully this thread will shed some much needed insight and knowledge of these issues from a variety of Canadian perspectives.

While I encourage all opinions, it will be beneficial to all to have comments that provide informative links, educational facts or practical solutions for consideration.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The real deal here isn't rocket science. Keep the peace, take your civil suits to court. Civil disobedience is one thing, but violence is another.

[NativeCharm]

Are you meaning to imply that you think the Stand off at Six nations is violent? and if so, from what end? Agressive action does not always trigger violence so much as its simply intended for results...key word here being "action".

[Canuck E Stan]

Are you meaning to imply that you think the Stand off at Six nations is violent? and if so, from what end? Agressive action does not always trigger violence so much as its simply intended for results...key word here being "action".

Key words are "stand-off" and "aggressive" along with "does not always trigger violence" implying violence occurs MOST of the time.

"Intended for results".....like something terrorists would do,without consideration of anything or anyone.

Jerry J. is right,keep the peace and take your civil suits to court(you do have lawyers do you not?)

[geoffrey]

There is a legal method, and a method that should result in jail time.

Six Nation's chose the second, and unfortunately, the leadership isn't being held responsible for disobeying a court order, the massive public property damage (which we all pay for from taxes now), and the violence towards police officers. Someone needs to be fined at the very least, in a major way. The Six Nations at least need to pay for the rail bridge and roadway they destroyed.

What further awareness do I need then this group broke the law? As soon as you did that, everything else went out the window. The time for awareness campaigns and higher learning ended the minute the court order was disrespected.

[jdobbin]

Six Nations Crisis- “Canada’s Pandora’s Box?”

With today’s increasing and aggressive actions by Native people to obtain concrete resolutions to land claims, will we see an increase of racism and hostility or an increased awareness of our Native people and Canada’s misinformed history?

The Caledonia carnival of controversy has been stirring up debates all over the country. While some discussions are heated with hostile racism, others have steered to a new road of informative education that many Canadian citizens were completely unaware of. See example of other thread click here

I felt it was necessary to start this thread in a national header as the issues underlying the Caledonia situation and the Six Nations crisis stem from the lack of knowledge in the following areas, treaties, taxation and the constitutional rights of Aboriginal people. Hopefully this thread will shed some much needed insight and knowledge of these issues from a variety of Canadian perspectives.

While I encourage all opinions, it will be beneficial to all to have comments that provide informative links, educational facts or practical solutions for consideration.

I don't think I know enough about the situation to comment.

I'd like for land claims to settled in a more timely fashion. I'd also like to see more urban reserves because it is the one area where I think there could be some real economic success.

There is a lot of fear out there and only education will help eradicate that fear.

[The UrbaNish]

What is unfortunate is the lack of awareness that mainstream Canada has on issues pertaining to First Nations, why are we not learnig this in school? how are the educational institutions enabling an informed Canada by not providing the REAL history! its a colonizers skewed perspective, which fuels the divide.

don't point the finger at the original landowners this Nation is ready and willing to stand up against the racist facist regime of the Canadian government, it is our duty to do so.

Did we learn anything from the Hollocaust, Hilter got his idea for concentration camps from CANADA with the implementation of the reservation system and the mistreatment of the First Nation! or even what Nelson Mandella stood for and what South Africa is trying to reclaim, and let us not forget Alcatraz 1968-1973, no blood shed; yet many Native peoples stood their ground, we got a heightend sence of our own Native pride and power, and was born The American Indian Movement and the National Brotherhood, now called the Assembly of First Nations.

We have seen standoffs over the years....nobody wants another OKA or IPPERWASH, nobody! but until everyone is educated and informed, the current standoff in Caledonia will always be the situation it will result too.

As First Nations people's we already know and understand our history, it is not written in HIS-tory, we live our legacy. Perhaps it is the responsibility of Nay sayers to seek the truth and uncover what our Canadian National Pride is really all about or Find your roots, look into your history and discover your motherland!

We are firmly planted on what the ancestors left for us and we will defend our legacies

"by any means necessary"

I invite you to do your research http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/pr/trts/hti/site/index_e.html or read this book from Harold Cardinal "The Unjust Society" or Bonita Lawrence "Real" Indians and Others" you may find some interesting issues that still pertain...you may even begin to educate yourself on what First Nations peoples have known for years....let us trully understand the history of this nation that we are building!

chi meegwetch,

Anishnawbe Kwe--The UrbaNish

weyha hey!

[Riverwind]

I'd like for land claims to settled in a more timely fashion. I'd also like to see more urban reserves because it is the one area where I think there could be some real economic success.

Reserves of any type simply perpetuate the racist policies that created the mess that exists today. I see no problem providing aboriginal groups with some land (with fee simple title) and cash to compensate them for historical wrongs, however, the entire concept of 'aboriginal title' is racist and has no place in a democratic egalitarian society. I would like to see the education system spend more time explaining what 'aboriginal title' really means and how granting 'aboriginal title' to a minority ethnic group will create endless social conflicts in the future.

[jbg]

Did we learn anything from the Hollocaust, Hilter got his idea for concentration camps from CANADA with the implementation of the reservation system and the mistreatment of the First Nation!

Canada did not deliberately exterminate anyone. That is not fair.

Smallpox took the laboring oar.

[jdobbin]

I'd like for land claims to settled in a more timely fashion. I'd also like to see more urban reserves because it is the one area where I think there could be some real economic success.

Reserves of any type simply perpetuate the racist policies that created the mess that exists today. I see no problem providing aboriginal groups with some land (with fee simple title) and cash to compensate them for historical wrongs, however, the entire concept of 'aboriginal title' is racist and has no place in a democratic egalitarian society. I would like to see the education system spend more time explaining what 'aboriginal title' really means and how granting 'aboriginal title' to a minority ethnic group will create endless social conflicts in the future.

The elimination of the reserves probably has to come from aboriginal people themselves, I believe. I certainly am open-minded to a discussion of how to remedy the problems of First Nations. I just don't think it can be done unilaterally.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

What is unfortunate is the lack of awareness that mainstream Canada has on issues pertaining to First Nations, why are we not learnig this in school? how are the educational institutions enabling an informed Canada by not providing the REAL history! its a colonizers skewed perspective, which fuels the divide.

Probably for the same reason we don't teach our kids about the influx of Ukaranians or anybody else, small numbers dude.

don't point the finger at the original landowners this Nation is ready and willing to stand up against the racist facist regime of the Canadian government, it is our duty to do so.

Original landowners? That is the big arguement here? Does that mean the nations need to turn back the clock a few thousand years and roll everything over to some ancient being. I thought that the "Tribe" owned the land, are you suggesting that the individual band members themselves own the land and therefore they have an ancient title to it? Give me a break, what kind of nonsense is that, what the sins of the father is your arguement so punish the decendants? Back the truck up buddy, we the citizens of the nation whose leaders you call facists and racist have done nothing to you other than build you schools and houses and literally pay you. For this we get what? We ask nothing of you in return for what you have been given by us. We are not talking about old Uncle Fred's grand daddy here, we are talking you and me.

Did we learn anything from the Hollocaust, Hilter got his idea for concentration camps from CANADA with the implementation of the reservation system and the mistreatment of the First Nation!

Where the hell did you get that notion from! Go back and check your facts! The British created concentration camps in the Boer War to handle civilian detainee's. Wasn't the reserve system what was asked for in the first place. A allotment of land specific for your own use, that was what was asked for and granted by the government of the day.

or even what Nelson Mandella stood for and what South Africa is trying to reclaim,

Again go back and check your facts my friend. South Africa had a population of a few thousand Pygmies at the time the British began to colonize it. Everybody else was imported into that land. What Mandella stood for was human rights, are you suggesting that you have no human rights in this country?

and let us not forget Alcatraz 1968-1973, no blood shed; yet many Native peoples stood their ground, we got a heightend sence of our own Native pride and power, and was born The American Indian Movement and the National Brotherhood, now called the Assembly of First Nations.

Forget Alcatraz? I can't forget it because I don't think I ever heard anything about it. What happened there?

We have seen standoffs over the years....nobody wants another OKA or IPPERWASH, nobody! but until everyone is educated and informed, the current standoff in Caledonia will always be the situation it will result too.

As First Nations people's we already know and understand our history, it is not written in HIS-tory, we live our legacy. Perhaps it is the responsibility of Nay sayers to seek the truth and uncover what our Canadian National Pride is really all about or Find your roots, look into your history and discover your motherland!

We are firmly planted on what the ancestors left for us and we will defend our legacies

"by any means necessary"

Poor attempt at a threat! You have to hide behind words better than that. Give me a break.

I invite you to do your research http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/pr/trts/hti/site/index_e.html or read this book from Harold Cardinal "The Unjust Society" or Bonita Lawrence "Real" Indians and Others" you may find some interesting issues that still pertain...you may even begin to educate yourself on what First Nations peoples have known for years....let us trully understand the history of this nation that we are building!

chi meegwetch,

Anishnawbe Kwe--The UrbaNish

weyha hey!

This nation is a political mess. There should not be a need to discuss First Nation issues because you should already have self government and it should not be any of my business. I find the subject way out of my league, its like my opinion about abortion. I am a man, so what does my opinion mean when I will never have to face the decision.

[The UrbaNish]

Did we learn anything from the Hollocaust, Hilter got his idea for concentration camps from CANADA with the implementation of the reservation system and the mistreatment of the First Nation!

Canada did not deliberately exterminate anyone. That is not fair.

Smallpox took the laboring oar.

My God this is the reason educating the mainstream is critical, You want to talk about fairness! come on. Canada inforced manditory sterilization for First Nations women, not only canada but all of the Americas, and imposed starvation tactics on First Nations by the Empire to control the Native populations, and the mass slaughter of First Nations peoples so that their scholars can determin the physical characteristics of an indian, they were trying to determin and decide if the First Nations were an equal race, what is fair? the canadian legistaltion of First Nations Identity, take a look at the Indian Act, all the many vairations it comes in Pierre Trudeau and Jean Creatien were there to support the white paper, back in the late 60's and early 70's, and what about the residential schools, you take the children away from thier roots and culture so that they can become civilized...how civilized were those priest when they were taking children as thier own muse. Dirty I say. take a look at the Hudson's Bay Company aboloshing the traditional trade routes so that they can become the founding enterprise! small pox on those lovely blankets - ever wonder why Native people needed those blankets, why their food was rationed, and why soo many First Nations people were dying, It wasn't because we didn't know how to survive in our own territories.

Canada may not have been as obvious as the slave trade, because they don't want to recognize their dirty deeds, they want you to believe in the illusion of Multiculturalism, and equal prosperity, but how was this nation built, who determined and decided the manifest destiny of this Nation.

Chi Meegwetch

Anishnawbe Kwe- The UrbaNish

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Granted a lot of injustice did happen, no contest on that. That is ancient history, Attempting to use the mistakes of the past to profit from is a little over the top don't you think?

You want land? Which land, is it occupied? You want money? How much? What is it that you truely seek?

[jdobbin]

Did we learn anything from the Hollocaust, Hilter got his idea for concentration camps from CANADA with the implementation of the reservation system and the mistreatment of the First Nation!

Canada did not deliberately exterminate anyone. That is not fair.

Smallpox took the laboring oar.

My God this is the reason educating the mainstream is critical, You want to talk about fairness! come on. Canada inforced manditory sterilization for First Nations women, not only canada but all of the Americas, and imposed starvation tactics on First Nations by the Empire to control the Native populations, and the mass slaughter of First Nations peoples so that their scholars can determin the physical characteristics of an indian, they were trying to determin and decide if the First Nations were an equal race, what is fair? the canadian legistaltion of First Nations Identity, take a look at the Indian Act, all the many vairations it comes in Pierre Trudeau and Jean Creatien were there to support the white paper, back in the late 60's and early 70's, and what about the residential schools, you take the children away from thier roots and culture so that they can become civilized...how civilized were those priest when they were taking children as thier own muse. Dirty I say. take a look at the Hudson's Bay Company aboloshing the traditional trade routes so that they can become the founding enterprise! small pox on those lovely blankets - ever wonder why Native people needed those blankets, why their food was rationed, and why soo many First Nations people were dying, It wasn't because we didn't know how to survive in our own territories.

Canada may not have been as obvious as the slave trade, because they don't want to recognize their dirty deeds, they want you to believe in the illusion of Multiculturalism, and equal prosperity, but how was this nation built, who determined and decided the manifest destiny of this Nation.

Chi Meegwetch

Anishnawbe Kwe- The UrbaNish

This all may be true. How can the problems be solved today?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Give them self government. Give them elected representatives in the Commons. Stop giving them money and grant them the right of self determination. Let them act in their own best interests.

[kilkee]

We have a real historical problem here that most Canadians are hardly aware of.

The Indians were granted this land for their huge representation in the early wars of this nation.

The Indians accepted this land -- five miles on either side of the Grand River.

It was too much land for the Indians to even occuppy.

It was given to them as a group -- not as individuals. Therefore individual Indians do not own this property. The tribe ownes it. Therefore individual Indians cannot sell their property. They too are caught in the trap of history -- tribal system versus Canadian judicial system.

And Canada is caught in the historical trap of being unable or unwilling to change these early Indian treaties.

The police are not about to get too much involved in this dispute when one of them was already charged with murder -- Dudly George.

We do not seem to have one politician with enough guts or brains to sit down and hammer this problem out.

[Riverwind]

Give them self government. Give them elected representatives in the Commons. Stop giving them money and grant them the right of self determination. Let them act in their own best interests.

Most native bands are too small or live in economically unviable locations. This means that self gov't is only possible if it is subsidizied by taxpayers.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Give them self government. Give them elected representatives in the Commons. Stop giving them money and grant them the right of self determination. Let them act in their own best interests.

Most native bands are too small or live in economically unviable locations. This means that self gov't is only possible if it is subsidizied by taxpayers.

Those bands can choose to stay where they are, I do not suggest that they should be moved. But they need to start to take control of their lives. If they choose to stay there, and live off of the land that would be their business wouldn't it? Personally the small town I live near, has a school but there is no stores or even a gas station, but I choose to live here. That is my choice.

I simply don't buy the arguement that since they live in an economically unviable location, which is where I live by the way, is an excuse to have the tax paying citizens cover the costs of their existance. That does not apply to me, why should it apply to them? Are they somehow more deserving of this government largess than I? Why doesn't the taxpayer subsidize my location?

I believe in equality.

[Riverwind]

If they choose to stay there, and live off of the land that would be their business wouldn't it?

Living off the land without the benefits of modern technology is a recipe for a brutal and short life by today's standards. I have never heard a native claim that they want to do that. For that reason it is not possible to have both self gov't and self sufficiency.

In any case, you misunderstand my argument. I am not trying to justify the subsizies - I am simply pointing out that your solution of 'self gov't' will not work without subsidies.

[gerryhatrick]

Why doesn't the taxpayer subsidize my location?

I believe in equality.

What about if all of your peoples children had been snapped up against their will and put in state-run schools where they were subject to physical and sexual abuse?

What if this went on for decades, and left a legacy of despair, mental illness, and substance abuse?

You think this is ancient history? It's not.

And that's not even mentioning all of the treaties.

So yes, we do owe our original citizens a debt.

You say "equality", but what you mean is screw them.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If they choose to stay there, and live off of the land that would be their business wouldn't it?

Living off the land without the benefits of modern technology is a recipe for a brutal and short life by today's standards. I have never heard a native claim that they want to do that. For that reason it is not possible to have both self gov't and self sufficiency.

In any case, you misunderstand my argument. I am not trying to justify the subsizies - I am simply pointing out that your solution of 'self gov't' will not work without subsidies.

If you want the benefits of modern technology then move into the city. I thought the idea was preservation of ancient culture and language, my mistake. So you are stating very clearly that delf government is not the answer. First Nations peoples are not capable of taking care of themselves and wish to remain wards of the state, is that correct?

I guess I have misunderstood your arguement. So we throw out self government as a possible solution, fine with me. What do you suggest is a viable answer? Just to warn you ahead of time that I am not in favor of throwing tax dollars around without value to the taxpaying citizen.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Why doesn't the taxpayer subsidize my location?

I believe in equality.

What about if all of your peoples children had been snapped up against their will and put in state-run schools where they were subject to physical and sexual abuse?

What if this went on for decades, and left a legacy of despair, mental illness, and substance abuse?

You think this is ancient history? It's not.

And that's not even mentioning all of the treaties.

So yes, we do owe our original citizens a debt.

You say "equality", but what you mean is screw them.

Lets take this from the top shall we;

What about if all of your peoples children had been snapped up against their will and put in state-run schools where they were subject to physical and sexual abuse?

All, as in every single individual child? You state that everyone was kidnapped and mistreated. Everybody? Look, I am more than willing to discuss the issues but I will not do so without honesty. I offer you my honesty and request the same in return. I will not embellish a statement to prove my point and I will request that you act in like manner, okay?

Now having said that I will agree that there were numerous cases of documented abuse. There was a legal remedy made and therefore a conclusion to this issue correct?

What if this went on for decades, and left a legacy of despair, mental illness, and substance abuse?

I give you the same response phrased differently. Said cases were brought before the court system which ruled in your favor and a legal remedy of monetary compensation was made to provide a conclusion to the legal proceedings.

You think this is ancient history? It's not.

Nice spin, I was making a referance to treaty obligations not this case of abuse on a national scale.

And that's not even mentioning all of the treaties.

That is what I was mentioning about history, the treaties. Having solved the first problem question in your post lets move to the second one, treaties. The sovereign nation that undertakes a social contract such as a treaty it is bound by the contract language contained within it. If a modified arrangement is made after the original was signed then the modified contract is the binding one. That is my spin on treaties. Lets take a look at the next problematic statement you made.

So yes, we do owe our original citizens a debt.

Where does this debt come from? What is it that you seek?

You say "equality", but what you mean is screw them.

How is it that you think you know my mind? However you came to that conclusion, you are in error. Your error offends me, was that was your intent by making that statement? This is how negotiations fall to achieve anything. Some people must simply make things up and try and sell them as the genuine article. It is not as if you and I could resolve these issues on our own, yet you feel the need to attack and offend the very individuals interested at undertaking debate in an effort to understand the issues. This kind of behavior does little to forward the cause of the First Nations in their quest.

[Riverwind]

I guess I have misunderstood your arguement. So we throw out self government as a possible solution, fine with me. What do you suggest is a viable answer? Just to warn you ahead of time that I am not in favor of throwing tax dollars around without value to the taxpaying citizen.

I think the solution has to come from the native communities themselves which need to overcome a toxic culture of victimization and entitlement. Japanese Canadians in WW2 had all of their property confiscated, spent several years in concentration camps and were then forced to relocate in new provinces with nothing more than the clothes on their backs. They recovered and their children and grandchildren are not trapped in a cycle of poverty today. The successful natives that I have met are people that don't spend a lot of time whining about historical injustices and demanding special rights. Instead, they work carving out their own niche within the society that exists.

I agree with your previous comment that compensation to individuals wronged in residential schools is justified and has nothing to do with the self gov't or aboriginal rights issue.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

So take two steps back and give them the space and time to formulate answers in their own way? I can live with that.

[gerryhatrick]

All, as in every single individual child? You state that everyone was kidnapped and mistreated. Everybody?

No, obviously not everybody was abused. All children were taken.

Now having said that I will agree that there were numerous cases of documented abuse. There was a legal remedy made and therefore a conclusion to this issue correct?

This shows how little you understand about the issue.

Go speak to those who suffered in residential schools and the children of those who suffered. Ask them if a "conclusion" has been reached.

You don't even know the facts, there has been no legal remedy and there has been no societal remedy.

In your mind aboriginals have been treated fairly and the issues are settled. There's no need for something like the Kelowna Accord, correct?