Killing Arafat

[Whistler]

In an exclusive interview today with ABCNEWS' Bob Woodruff, Arafat responded to the Bush administration's accusation that he is not doing enough to stop attacks on Israeli civilians.

Woodruff: Is it international pressure that has kept the Israelis from moving against you?

Arafat: I have been elected by my people under international supervision. Even President Carter was one of the observers who was supervising the election campaign.

Woodruff: But the [israeli government] did make a threat against you. Do you take it seriously? Do you fear for your life?

Arafat: For your information, I am here under siege for about three years. And not only that, the damage and what we have faced from their airplanes, from their tanks. But the most important thing is not what we are facing here, although it is against international law, but what our people are facing.

<snip>

Woodruff: President Bush said yesterday, on Thursday, that you are a failed leader.

Arafat: This is what he's saying, but he has to remember that President Clinton was dealing with me, his father was dealing with me. And he was in the beginning with me.

Woodruff: Are you saying you are the only one who can make peace for the Palestinians?

Arafat: No, the Palestinian leadership, which I am one of them, [is] making the peace, and I've been accepted to make the peace with the Israelis.

Woodruff: Are you able to control the street?

Arafat: I am doing my best.

Woodruff: Does Hamas have more control than you?

Arafat: You have to know we are the authority of the Palestinians — that has been recognized by all the Palestinians.

Woodruff: If you want to control suicide bombers, can you stop them?

Arafat: We have stopped them and we've succeeded.

Woodruff: Can you stop them again?

Arafat: Yes, and yesterday they had called, they are ready to return back to truce.

Woodruff: Do you want to stop them now?

Arafat: What?

Woodruff: Do you want to stop the suicide bombers now?

Arafat: Ask them and ask your American representatives how many times we have succeeded to stop the suicide bombers and arrest them.

Woodruff: But do you have the power now to stop them?

Arafat: You are not fair and thank you.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/a...afat030919.html

"You have to know we are the authority of the Palestinians..."

Is he reveling with this dodge that Hamas are not Palestinian?

“Yes, and yesterday they had called, they are ready to return back to truce.”

Yeah, Arafat is a player...not.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

Your post about Arafat dodging definitions sounds far more like Clinton's impeachment defense argument that anything I have heard on the news regarding Arafat.

Dear Whistler,

I agree, it seems Arafat has no control over HAMAS or Islamic Jihad, it only looks like he does for prestige reasons.

Dear Mr. Read, Once Israel implements it's peace accord, it can dictate to the corpses of all palestinians what peace means to Ariel Sharon. Did you forget that Palestine was 'disbanded' as a nation to create Israel? And do you forget the difference between 'Israel' and 'Y'israel'?

Dear FastNed,

You are right that Arafat is not the leader of a recognized nation. Y'israel refuses to recognize it, even though they are standing on it. The same goes for the Muslims who refuse to recognize Israel.

Dear all,

The time has come to end such foolish games, for no one yet has been so 'correct' as to rise above the others. The correct answer and the wrong answer lie within us all.

[nova_satori]

what I don't understand, is how Isreal keeps destroying the infrastucture of the Palestines, yet demands that the Palestine Authority crack down on militants.

That's like robbing someone of all resources then demanding that they stop their siblings from comming crimes.

Doesn't make any sense.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Nova,

That's like robbing someone of all resources then demanding that they stop their siblings from comming crimes.

While I am 'playing the same position', left wing, lol, I don't understand this bit.

[KrustyKidd]

That's pretty silly Nova. Hamas is not controlled from a headquarters of any kind. They operate out of their homes and cafes. To take them out there would cause unecessary casualties (something the Palistinians would never consider trying to avoid) That is why the goons that are their leaders are taken out when they pop up comming out of houses and driving in their cars. Taking away Arafat's trappings of legitimacy bit by bit is a graded punishment. The alternative is taking him out, or just flattening the whole country. Surely this is better than that.

As for hampering the effectiveness to stop Hamas? You make it sound like terrorists are a totally separate entity. They are your brother, cousin, neighbor, not like they are an army apart from society. To stop them all it takes is a single order and somebody that is willing to listen to it. That order can be given by smoke signals or a scrawled note on toilet paper, you don't need any complicated infastructure to do that.

[nova_satori]

While I am 'playing the same position', left wing, lol, I don't understand this bit.

Then I will clarify. The IDF has hit palestinian authority buildings, outposts and police centers. They kill their staff on a regular basis, as well as freeze their resources. They destroy their infrastucture. They essentially make the PA useless. Then they demand that the PA crack down on militants. Then they get pissed off when the PA doesn't. Then the go blow more stuff up. Then make the same demands.

How are you suppose to do that when you have no resources or power?

Hamas is not controlled from a headquarters of any kind. They operate out of their homes and cafes.

Hamas is the not subject at hand. The PA and Hamas are not the same. While they may be linked, they are by no way the same entity. BTW, i called the millitants their siblings.

That order can be given by smoke signals or a scrawled note on toilet paper, you don't need any complicated infastructure to do that.

But you do need a complicated infrastucure to stop them. The IDF destroys that yet demands crackdowns. Doesn't make any sense.

If anything, you'd build up the non-corrupt PA factions.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear KK,

I beg to disagree.

There was a period when there was no attacks on Israel, short lived though it was. (OMG, that sounded like Yoda)

To the point, the 'terrorists' did cease action while it seemed ther might be peace. Both sides, though, think that violence will solve the problem. No chance, though, if both sides continue to reproduce.

Not everyone has access to Arafat's toilet, so it would seem that the orders for suicide bombings come from beyond Arafat's control. Same would go for any successor.

[KrustyKidd]

It would seem that these Palestinians want a cease-fire after all. Note that the Islamic group also wants the destruction of Israel but for now will stop shooting only to later kill everybody when it is a little more convenient for them or the weather improves I suppose. In either case how would you deal with this?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.j...l?itemNo=312743

“Here are the texts of the statements released yesterday by Hamas and the Islamic Jihad groups in Gaza City and by Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement in the West Bank, declaring the beginning of a truce to halt attacks against Israelis.”

“Fatah declared a six-month truce, while the Islamic groups' cease-fire is three months. Also, the Fatah

statement notes the goal of a Palestinian state in all of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jerusalem, while the Islamic groups demand an end to Zionist occupation of Palestinian land, which can be interpreted as including Israel. The Islamic groups do not accept a Jewish state in the Middle East.”

KK

As for Arafat not having control over these thugs that is good. Not being a leader he therefore can be taken out like a common terrorist. And not having anybody in control verifies my contention that they are all just violent hoods rather than a people united with a noble purpose such as co existence with it’s neighbors, care of it’s own but rather destruction of anything they do not like. In reality however, he is in charge. It is a screwed up Arab kind of in charge but he is the man. If he wasn't you want to know one of the terrorist groups would be the spokesman instead of he.

[nova_satori]

the only way the IDF can fight terrorism successfully is to turn the population aganist the militants. Obviously, they aren't doing that.

[KrustyKidd]

Might be happening without Israel.

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/...2003091912.html

Seems there was a little altercation between the good ol' boys in Gaza. This came from an Arabic news source so I'm not sure of the reality of it but who knows?

[Whistler]

Sense we’re now talking about the entire Palestinian / Israel conflict I’m going to attempt to summarize my whole philosophy on the subject as simple minded as it might be.

A little background (not that anyone here needs it):

Some people forget that the Jewish National Fund established in the early 1900 was collecting money and buying land around Jerusalem in hopes of establishing their own homeland. Israel was partitioned after WWII out of Transjordan with both self-owned and annexed land in such a fractured geographic manner the boarders were indefensible. The size of which did not allow for the expansion the Jewish nation was striving for. Israel, attacked the day after its birth by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, not only beat those armies back they captured lands that would allow the boarders to be better defended and allowed for expansion. Try as they might Israel’s neighboring countries could not match Israel’s grit, determination and most of all fire power in their quest to rid what they considered Arab land of the Israelis. The PLO is formed. Palestinians are not allowed to buy now Jordanian land. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

The Arabian people as a result now have a point of focus, in Israel, to release all their anger and despair. ‘Rulers’ of these weak mostly family dictator welfare countries exploit that sentiment. Every year Arab League nations gather and pledge great sums of money in a game of one-us-man-ship to the Palestinian cause to satisfy their people and keep the focus on Palestine’s plight and away from the true cause of the peoples despair.

If anyone other than the Palestinians themselves truly wanted a Palestinian homeland, they would have had one many years ago or been absorbed into other populations as second-class citizens. God /Allah knows billions upon billions of dollars has been thrown at this problem from both sides for many years.

As a result, the Arab people focus away from their true problems allowing the ‘Rulers’ to maintain leadership while appearing to fight ‘the cause’. Israel now has a defensible boarder large enough to expand within and is very reluctant to relinquish any part. It is also fighting, for the most part, only the Palestinians. A smallish unorganized population, on one front in lieu of multiple countries on multiple fronts in a major conflict.

Sadly, until the Arabian people are helped into the twenty-first century and able to see hope in their own future, will continue to be the way things have to be.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Orgs/jnf.html

http://www.mideastweb.org/arableague.htm

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Whistler,

A very good article.

[nova_satori]

If the militants left Isreal alone for 2 months, Isreal would tear itself apart. The sole thing keeping the government together is the threat of terrorism.

[Hugo]

Is "nova satori" Latin for "idiotic sweeping statements made without a shred of justification?"

It should be. If you can't at least put up an argument, don't bother shooting your mouth off, because somebody will make you look foolish (again).

[FastNed]

Very nice post, Whistler.

[nova_satori]

Is "nova satori" Latin for "idiotic sweeping statements made without a shred of justification?"

It should be. If you can't at least put up an argument, don't bother shooting your mouth off, because somebody will make you look foolish (again).

I don't see you dropping dump trucks of counter-evidence.

Or is it perhaps because you don't like opposition? Thinking about alternatives is NEVER acceptable. We MUST shoot first and NEVER ask questions.

Hmmmm

More lies eh Hugo?

But hey, We don't have to listen to anything we don't want. All Dissidence is wrong! We never need to hear an alternative! Who needs a different view point, they might see something important that we fail to notice, na, we don't need to know anything!

[Hugo]

I don't see you dropping dump trucks of counter-evidence.

You made the contention, so the burden of proof is upon you.

Israel has, since its inception, remained the most stable state in the Middle East and has had a constant democratic government.

If a coalition government comes apart, and new elections have to be held, I wouldn't call that a country "tearing itself apart."

But you keep kidding yourself that what you say is new and interesting. The fact is that everything you say has been said before, and in a better way. There are leftists on this board whom I respect, but you are not one of them, since your debating skills are very lacking, your viewpoints are extremely unoriginal and you back them up with very shaky evidence, or more usually, none at all. You've only shown us that you've read two books, and you don't show that you even understood them.

You need to examine more evidence from both sides of each argument, and more importantly, you do have some maturing to do. 17-year-olds often believe that they know everything, but as the years go past they usually realise that they knew nothing. It's all very well to wax lyrical on socialist principles when you are a student or welfare claimant on the receiving end, but when you are working, trying to support a family and watching thousands of your tax dollars being wasted on socialist boondoggles things look a little different.

[nova_satori]

But you keep kidding yourself that what you say is new and interesting.

When did I do this? I never said it was new or even interesting.

There are leftists on this board whom I respect

Like Craig respects any leftists?

You've only shown us that you've read two books, and you don't show that you even understood them.

have you read the books?

17-year-olds often believe that they know everything, but as the years go past they usually realise that they knew nothing.

Of course I know nothing. No one knows anything. We simply believe what we think is true. The wisest man is the one who acknowedlges that he knows nothing. The oracle of delphi granted Socrates the title of wisest man because he believed he knew nothing. It matter not what age you are, you know nothing, but believe much. Unless you'd like to say that everything you believe, you know.

It's all very well to wax lyrical on socialist principles when you are a student or welfare

So asking questions and learning from the past is a socialistic principal? Promoting ethical capitalisim is a socialistic principal?

[nova_satori]

Getting back to the subject:

Do you believe that the US support for Isreal is a good thing?

(beyond the huge weapons testing ground)

And why do US politicans support Isreal, is it for their own gain via the Jewish vote, or do they geniunily care for a country that has done little to help the US?

[Hugo]

Do you believe that the US support for Isreal is a good thing?

A good thing? I thought you were a moral relativist, in which case - good for whom?

And why do US politicans support Isreal, is it for their own gain via the Jewish vote, or do they geniunily care for a country that has done little to help the US?

Probably a little from column A and a little from column B, but you would have to ask them since I don't know their own thoughts.

[nova_satori]

Good for the US I mean.

[Derek]

Kill arafat, send the fuckers packing, they have no right, to keep attacking Israel's people and not their military, try using sucide bombers on tanks, wouldn't work, see everybody those bastards use underhand tactics, and cheap shit to further their cause, like all terrorists, they have got to go. Arafat, says one thing does the opposite.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Derek,

While Arafat may be Janus-faced,

Kill arafat, send the f*#kers packing

is hardly a well though out plan. You are right, in the fact that the Palestinians should be attacking the Israeli Military rather than civilians, though. Some sense of morality should come into play, but if it is for Islam, all infidels may be targetted.

Israel should be required to prove in an international court that G-d 'promised them' the holy lands, and Islam as a whole should be required to prove the Koran as a counter to that, if any one of them can fight over 'what G-d said. Judea and Samaria have not 'existed' for thousands of years, yet Israel still lays claim to them. Can anyone say 'Byzantium' is theirs? Can Germany take Poland back because they once had it?

Y'israel has resorted to foolish and underhanded tactics too, including murdering innocents. Neither side has much of a leg to stand on.

[nova_satori]

Kill arafat, send the fuckers packing, they have no right, to keep attacking Israel's people and not their military, try using sucide bombers on tanks, wouldn't work, see everybody those bastards use underhand tactics, and cheap shit to further their cause, like all terrorists, they have got to go. Arafat, says one thing does the opposite

They have no right to try to regain their land and freedoms stolen by the creation of the Isreali state? They have NO right to fight for their property and the children's freedom? They have NO right to fight for their own freedom? So you're saying the Palestians have absoultely no right to seek their freedom?

Derek, you OBVIOUSLY have no idea what is happening over there, no history of Israel, no history of the Palestinians, nor have you spoken with anyone from that general area. Please learn something before you go around talking like a ignorant, arrogant fool.

[Whistler]

If the militants left Isreal alone for 2 months, Isreal would tear itself apart. The sole thing keeping the government together is the threat of terrorism.

Nova, If guaranteed not to be attacked from neighboring countries I’m confident Israel would enjoy the opportunity to try just that.