Killing Arafat

[Hugo]

They have no right to try to regain their land and freedoms stolen by the creation of the Isreali state?

'Palestine', which never actually existed in its own right, was a part of Jordan, which has denied the Palestinians the right to settle and assimilate in their own country and insisted that they live in refugee camps - they have denied citizenship to their own citizens.

The freedoms of Palestinians were not 'stolen', since Israel allows equality, and has 1.5m Arab citizens and even Arab MPs. The reason why Israel won't grant right of return is as follows:

There are 1.5m Arabs in Israel and 5m Jews. Add 5m Palestinians to that mix, and you have 6.5m Arabs, and 5m Jews, and Israel ceases to exist and becomes yet another nutcase middle-eastern Arab state.

To ask that Israel grant the Palestinians right of return is basically asking them to commit cultural suicide, and I think they had enough of that at Auschwitz, thank you very much!

[Derek]

They have no right to try to regain their land and freedoms stolen by the creation of the Isreali state? They have NO right to fight for their property and the children's freedom? They have NO right to fight for their own freedom? So you're saying the Palestians have absoultely no right to seek their freedom?

Derek, you OBVIOUSLY have no idea what is happening over there, no history of Israel, no history of the Palestinians, nor have you spoken with anyone from that general area. Please learn something before you go around talking like a ignorant, arrogant fool.

No they don't have any right, at all, the land wasn't theirs, It was Israel's, The Jews have obtained that land through many wars with Arab nations thinking they shouldn't be there, they fought for it and should get to keep it. Remember Israel didn't attack them, they attacked Israel. The Jews never did anything to deserve this shit. The Palestinians should stop their acts of terrorism. Plain and Simple. Remember how The United states was formed? We fought for our freedom, it happened here it happened over there. (yea i know the independence was different than Israel fighting to keep theirs. If Israel was under Arab rule right now the people would be oppressed. In Israel right now, there is terrorism at its worst. Don't try to tell me i don't know anything about history.

[nova_satori]

No they don't have any right, at all, the land wasn't theirs, It was Israel's,

Neither was it Israel's, if we wanted to get down to legal rights, it was Britain's. The palestinians were living there before the creation of the isreal state. They "owned" the land (if you can really own land in the grand scheme of things). However, the land was used and lived on by the Palestinans. Many of them lost their property.

The Jews have obtained that land through many wars with Arab nations thinking they shouldn't be there, they fought for it and should get to keep it.

No they didn't. The original land, much of which was occuptied by Palestinans, was given to Israel via the UN and Britain, after WWII. The Israelis gained land through wars with arabs, but that is irrevelent to the topic at hand. Much of the land that Isreali live on was once owned by Palestinians.

The Palestinians should stop their acts of terrorism. Plain and Simple.

They should give up their chance to regain their property and former lives? Would YOU give up your land and freedom simply because some idiot said so?

It's VERY clear you have never spoken with any Middle Easterner. The vast majority of them agree when a Arab or a Muslim fights for their freedom, they are considered terrorists. When a westerner does it, the rest of the world considers him/her a freedom fighter.

If Israel was under Arab rule right now the people would be oppressed

And you would want them to fight for their freedom, but when a muslim or arab does it, you condemn them.

Don't try to tell me i don't know anything about history.

I don't need to. You should look at your own post and be able to tell you know nothing.

Hugo: Do you think that a creation of a Palestinian state, with aid from America would be the best idea in the long run?

Obviously, you can't have that contrast between people, but the Palestianes lost much land and wealth, it seems only fair to at least try to make it up.

[Hugo]

I don't know if creating a Palestinian state would solve anything. The beef of the Arab nations and of the Palestinian groups is not that there is no Palestine, it's that there is an Israel, and I believe that the only way to satisfy them is to destroy Israel. That's no option, really, 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust and many more displaced and I think giving 5 million more Jews a choice between exile or death 50 years later is not terribly humane.

The Jews built Israel by hard work. Of course, they had US aid, but so did South Vietnam, and look what happened to that: national character has to play a part and it's notable that Israel is the only democratic, free and really prosperous state in the entire region. Plus, of course, they were there first, before the Jordanians/Palestinians, before the British, they were there when Pharaohs still ruled Egypt.

The best solution I can see is for the Arab world to accept the existence of Israel and Israel's right to exist and for the Palestinians to be accepted back into Jordan, their motherland. Of course, for other Arab nations to welcome Palestinians as citizens would be helpful, but since the Palestinians are actually Jordanian it would seem that the larger part of that burden must fall to them. Israel cannot take them in, even though it recognises Arabs as equals within its borders, for the demographic reasons I've outlined above.

Fat chance, of course. Like Hitler, the Arab leaders have found that "blame the Jews" conveniently answers all the questions their people raise and to give that up would create the possibility that the real answer might come to light i.e. "We are a bunch of despotic and corrupt powermongers."

[Derek]

The Palestinians should stop their acts of terrorism. Plain and Simple.

They should give up their chance to regain their property and former lives? Would YOU give up your land and freedom simply because some idiot said so?

First off, i said the Palestinians should stop their acts of terrorism, terrorists, in my view (so you guys don't jump all over me how im arrogant so on and so forth.) are pussies. They blow themselves up in civilian centers hoping to further their cause, this does nothing. This only instigates Israel to kill more palestinians, I never said in that sentence anything about giving up their land. I simply stated they need to stop the terrorism and actually fight the "right" way. Terrorism is for pussies. If some idiot told me to give up my land I would fight for it, but i wouldnt go down town and blow them up, I would simply load up my 30-30, my .357 Magnum and take as many of those fuckers off the earth as possible, strapping a bomb to your chest and screaming "Praise Allah, Death to America, Death to Israel etc. isn't going to do anything in the long run but kill yourself.

[Craig Read]

I read somewhere [wish i remembered where] that Palestinian kids can recite the Koran but they are illiterate.

Most experts that are not UNO paid apologists feel that Palestine needs the infrastructure of governance before they get the land.

This to me makes sense. Arafat and his thugs make personal profit from terror. He must go.

Then the institutions for peace, education, economic revival and societal construction must be built.

After some time, the land can be given as a state, if they, the Palestinians deserve it.

Otherwise Israel will have no choice but to fight and win this war.

Arafat has to go - better off dead than alive I say.

[nova_satori]

Hugo: I am by no way saying this is the Jew's fault. If it's anyone's, it's the UK and the UN's fault for this whole mess.

I suppose that a state wouldn't really help alot, given the current situation. It's hard to fix things when the militants have a the ultimate goal of complete destruction of Isreal.

Israel is the only democratic, free and really prosperous state in the entire region.

Prosperous in comparsion to its neighbors. However, one would wonder if a dictator ship was installed, things would be more fluid. The labor party seriously doesn't like Sharon, and there is much disunity within the Israeli government. However, i'm curious, since the rise of the Jihad, hasn't Israel gone into the red? I know Saudi Arabia just recently pulled its self back into the black, thanks to a few rational minded princes in the house of Saud.

The best solution I can see is for the Arab world to accept the existence of Israel and Israel's right to exist and for the Palestinians to be accepted back into Jordan, their motherland.

I suppose, but I see a huge clash of religions standing in its way.

What I don't understand is how Israel is going to provide for the people. Their current water levels are already in trouble, and their desalination plants are overworked. However, this seems to be the problem all over the middle east. When war is on, things like that get pushed to the back, but should peace ever come...Israel has alot to work on.

Fat chance, of course. Like Hitler, the Arab leaders have found that "blame the Jews" conveniently answers all the questions their people raise and to give that up would create the possibility that the real answer might come to light i.e. "We are a bunch of despotic and corrupt powermongers."

What bothers me, is if Hitler could have found another way to band his people together, and still used the Jews. Jews at the time were wealth, educated and skilled. Adding their industrial might and wealth, and brains to his empire would have undoubtly prolonged the war, if not ended it in the favor. Few people will say and think that Jews are worthless. I am not one of them.

They blow themselves up in civilian centers hoping to further their cause, this does nothing.

In the minds of the international yes, but to many palestinians, Israel has done so much wrong to them, that suicide bombings are the only way to get back. Vicious cycle.

I simply stated they need to stop the terrorism and actually fight the "right" way. Terrorism is for pussies.

Then the US is a pussy. Contra anyone? What is the right way? Argue with Sharon? LOL. that will do alot good

I would simply load up my 30-30, my .357 Magnum and take as many of those fuckers off the earth as possible

There are plenty of gun battles in that area. The Isreal push into Jenin Time Article, was a large gun battle, as well as suicide and remote bombings. They are fighting the way you described. Please keep the swearing to a minium if you have to, and if you can, cease the usage.

Most experts that are not UNO paid apologists feel that Palestine needs the infrastructure of governance before they get the land.

True. They also need functioning police and civil services. the IDF likes to blow those up.

I read somewhere [wish i remembered where] that Palestinian kids can recite the Koran but they are illiterate.

I read somewhere [wish i remembered where] that American Adults can recite the Bible but they are illiterate.

Arafat has to go - better off dead than alive I say.

Better alive and imprisoned than as a martyr for the disguntled of the Middle East to rally upon.

[SirRiff]

i dont think its wrong to point out Isreal itself was a creation of violence and terrorist activism. a fanatical devotion to land and religon.

thus its only after the passage of time does Isreal gain legitimacy and palestinians are considered savage.

i'm sure the first zionists where known to be savage in thier own time.

of course the people most suffering from palestinian terror are the palestinians, mostly the young people who will be doomed to a life of poverty and occupation.

their leadership is corrupt like most arab states, and unfortunately when you have nothing, you are far more likely to devote your life to whatever you have left, yoru religion or land or family.

the best way to stop extremism is to creat a middle class that ismore worried about soccer games, and morgages, and getting to work then dodging bullets and burying thier kids.

expect desperate people to act desperately

Sirriff

[Derek]

Then the US is a pussy. Contra anyone? What is the right way? Argue with Sharon? LOL. that will do alot good

Please explain further.

I will try not to swear as much sry.

[nova_satori]

Honduras - In 1988, US troops entered Honduras to prevent Nicaraguan forces from making incursions into Honduras to combat US-supported Contra terrorists. This deployment successfully stopped Nicaraguan incursions into Honduras, thereby providing the Contra terrorists with a safe haven to launch their attacks into Nicaragua.

Although the Nicaraguan issue has been settled for years, US troops remain in Honduras to present. Today this consists of an infantry task force that works with the Honduran military.

Contra 1

This took place during the Contra War, which consisted primarily of a series of terrorist attacks against Nicaragua carried out by bands of US funded mercenaries, dubbed “freedom fighters,” by the Reagan administration.  According to congressional investigations conducted at the time, Reich reported directly to the notorious Colonel Oliver North, later convicted in the Iran-Contra scandal, where weapons were covertly sold to Iran by US government operatives, with the proceeds used to fund the Contra terrorists in defiance of US law. 

Contra 2

It was particularly disheartening to hear National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice welcome the coup, for it was she who selected Abrams to advise her on democracy and human rights. There is no greater champion of democratic values than Abrams. True, he’s a convicted Iran-contra perjurer, and he led cheers for Salvadoran army mass murderers and contra cutthroats. But hey, everybody has their bad days. Negroponte, our ambassador to the U.N., apparently was out of the coup loop. Back in the day, however, as Ambassador to Honduras, he was a great fosterer of democracy -- or at least its illusion. (Hey, you got to start somewhere.) The Reagan Gang erected a democratic facade in Honduras so the true powers, Negroponte and the army, could run the show, crush dissent and harbor Nicaraguan terrorists. Yep, Reagan’s beloved contra “freedom fighters” -- “the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers” -- were terrorists: They routinely targeted civilians for rape, torture and murder -- and the “murder” portion was justified in a manual the CIA wrote for and distributed to the contra terrorists.

Contra 3

Not good for Ray-Gun. lol.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Nova,

I had owned a copy of that CIA 'terrorist' handbook. Mostly it was civil disobedience, and sabotage. Still, when congress found out about it, the CIA got 'mildly' spanked.

[nova_satori]

lol. Imagine how bad they would have been spanked if they gave away the "anarchist's cookbook."

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Read,

A very good post, but Israel will not give up the land later, if they claim it to be 'providential' now. Palestine (which does not exist now, for the Israeli's claim it to be theirs, and everyone else calls it 'the occupied territories') cannot stop fighting at this time for if Israel settles it, they will just have to fight later. Israel has the same thinking on this one.

[Craig Read]

I believe Israel will give up the land once they are convinced that Palestine is moving forward to establish peace, Arafat and his thugs who steal money are gone, and the land borders between the 2 states could be made secure [a wall in some areas would be vital, check points, military fences and the like also quite necessary].

The newer generation in Israel would probably support such a move. But the key is Arafat - he has to go.

Rather strange that an Egyptian suddenly is the 'voice of his people' in Palestine.

[Craig Read]

From the former head of Romanian intelligence: [WSJ Sept 25th]

ION MIHAI PACEPA

---------------

"Before I defected to America from Romania, leaving my post as chief of Romanian intelligence, I was responsible for giving Arafat about $200,000 in laundered cash every month throughout the 1970s. I also sent two cargo planes to Beirut a week, stuffed with uniforms and supplies. Other Soviet bloc states did much the same. Terrorism has been extremely profitable for Arafat. According to Forbes magazine, he is today the sixth wealthiest among the world's "kings, queens & despots," with more than $300 million stashed in Swiss bank accounts.

* * *

"I invented the hijackings [of passenger planes]," Arafat bragged when I first met him at his PLO headquarters in Beirut in the early 1970s. He gestured toward the little red flags pinned on a wall map of the world that labeled Israel as "Palestine." "There they all are!" he told me, proudly. The dubious honor of inventing hijacking actually goes to the KGB, which first hijacked a U.S. passenger plane in 1960 to Communist Cuba. Arafat's innovation was the suicide bomber, a terror concept that would come to full flower on 9/11.

In 1972, the Kremlin put Arafat and his terror networks high on all Soviet bloc intelligence services' priority list, including mine. Bucharest's role was to ingratiate him with the White House. We were the bloc experts at this. We'd already had great success in making Washington -- as well as most of the fashionable left-leaning American academics of the day -- believe that Nicolae Ceausescu was, like Josip Broz Tito, an "independent" Communist with a "moderate" streak."

the article goes on....

Time to kill him.

[Whistler]

Very informative article indeed. But no one’s hands are clean here. Should they both go?

"Sharon's first documented sortie in this role was in August of 1953 on the refugee camp of El-Bureig, south of Gaza. An Israeli history of the 101 unit records 50 refugees as having been killed; other sources allege 15 or 20. Major-General Vagn Bennike, the UN commander, reported that "bombs were thrown" by Sharon's men "through the windows of huts in which the refugees were sleeping and, as they fled, they were attacked by small arms and automatic weapons".

In October of 1953 came the attack by Sharon's unit 101 on the Jordanian village of Qibya, whose "stain" Israel's foreign minister at the time, Moshe Sharett, confided to his diary "would stick to us and not be washed away for many years". He was wrong. Though even strongly pro-Israel commentators in the West compared it to Lidice, Qibya and Sharon's role are scarcely evoked in the West today, least of all by journalists such as Deborah Sontag of the New York Times who recently wrote a whitewash of Sharon, describing him as "feisty", or the

Washington Post's man in Jerusalem who fondly invoked him after his fateful excursion to the Holy Places in Jerusalem as "the portly old warrior"."

http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon.html

"Details of the massacre: The massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps occurred between September 16 and 18, 1982, after Israel Defense Forces (“IDF”) then occupying Beirut and under Ariel Sharon´s overall command as Israeli Defense Minister permitted members of the Phalange militia into the camps. The precise civilian death toll most likely will never be known. Israeli military intelligence estimated that between 700 and 800 people were killed in Sabra and Shatilla during the sixty-two-hour rampage, while Palestinian and other sources have claimed that the dead numbered up to several thousand. The victims included infants, children, women (including pregnant women), and the elderly, some of whom were mutilated or disemboweled before or after they were killed. Journalists who arrived on the scene immediately after the massacre also saw evidence of the summary execution of young men. To cite only one contemporaneous account, that of Thomas Friedman of the New York Times: “[M]ostly I saw groups of young men in their twenties and thirties who had been lined up against walls, tied by their hands and feet, and then mowed down gangland-style with fusillades of machine-gun fire.”

By all accounts, the perpetrators of this indiscriminate slaughter were members of the Phalange (or

Kata´eb, in Arabic) militia, a Lebanese force that was armed by and closely allied to Israel since the outbreak of Lebanon´s civil war in 1975. It must be noted, however, that the killings were carried out in an area under IDF control. An IDF forward command post was situated on the roof of a multi-story building located some 200 meters southwest of the Shatilla camp.

Findings of the Kahan Commission:

In February 1983, the three-member Israeli official independent commission of inquiry charged with investigating the events known as the Kahan Commission named former Defense Minister Sharon as one of the individuals who "bears personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre."

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/06/isr0622.htm

[Craig Read]

No, that attack was a reprisal for attacks on Israeli villages including schools and hospitals.

Arafat IS the problem.

Lance the boil I say and let the Pus run.

[Whistler]

"let the pus run"

[nova_satori]

Craig: What makes you believe that everyone will forsake the memory of the one who fought aganist Israel for Palestine? THe one who fought aganist a western backed country who has killed thousands of their country men?

I find it hard to believe that people would simply not rush to the fires of his memory and let loose even more attacks on Israel should Arafat be assissinated.

[Craig Read]

Raising Palestinian kids to cite the Koran but who cannot read is pointless. Lacing the bras of young 17 yr old girls with Semtex and paying off their families as they destroy themselves is murder. Stealing money for personal gain is criminal. Not establishing proper institutions immoral. Killing innocents Jews and not even uttering the word Jew incomprehensible.

He is a criminal, a terrorist, a thief and an immoral liar.

Kill him. And Kill him slowly.

[nova_satori]

that doesn't answer the question. That is simply your opinion on what he does. Many of the palestinanes see this as a way to fight their oppresor.

Raising Palestinian kids to cite the Koran but who cannot read is pointless.

Raising American kids who think pop culture is the best thing since slice bread is pointless.

Lacing the bras of young 17 yr old girls with Semtex and paying off their families as they destroy themselves is murder

To whom? Giving their lives in a war to free thesmelves from Israel's oppression is murder or martyrism?

money for personal gain is criminal.

You sure you want to go there?

Not establishing proper institutions immoral.

That's a opinion. Not a fact.

Killing innocents Jews and not even uttering the word Jew incomprehensible.

Killing and maiming thousands of innocent palestinaisn via Israeli airstrikes is wrong. Even the Israel pilots feel so. Here's the article

[Whistler]

errrr ex-pilots.

[Craig Read]

Get serious. The UN, the EU and lie-berals like yourself apologist for Hussien, Allende, Terrorists, Bin Laden and Palestinian attacks on Jewish civilians.

I will repeat this again - JORDAN IS A PALESTINIAN homeland under the British 1917 demarcation.

Hello ? Do you understand english ? Jordan is the homeland of the Palestinians. Is that clear ?

If the current crop of PA leaders want ANOTHER homeland then I suggest they get rid of Arafat, stop the corruption, start building the institutions that they have promised to build since 1948.

The refugee camps at Jenin and elsewhere were supposed to be temporary. They have become permanent swamps of anti-Jewish terror recruitment.

And no one has answered the question i posed - Jordan which is a Palestinian state - does not want the PA or its people. Care to take a guess as to why ?

[KrustyKidd]

With the ouster of security chief Mohammed Dahlan, it appeared even less likely that the Palestinian security forces would begin dismantling militant groups

I wonder if there is any other way Palistinians can screw up getting their own homeland? If there is, better let them know quick as it seems they are running out of destructive ideas here and are actually having to resort to pretending to give a hoot..

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-09...estinians_x.htm

[KrustyKidd]

Killing innocents Jews and not even uttering the word Jew incomprehensible.

Killing and maiming thousands of innocent palestinaisn via Israeli airstrikes is wrong. Even the Israel pilots feel so. Here's the article

Signatory of Israel pilots' letter says regrets signing petition

By Amos Harel and Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondents, and Haaretz Service

Colonel Ran, one of the 27 signatories of the pilots' letter of refusal, in which they stated that they would not participate in operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, said Sunday he regretted signing the letter, and was changing his mind.

The move came after a slew of criticism of the pilots' move from government figures and from fellow Israel Air Force airmen.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, speaking in a holiday interview to Israel Radio on Friday condemned the letter, saying it

reminded him that there had also been an attempt to overthrow a democratically-elected government during the 1982 Lebanon War.

Sharon's comments were an apparent reference to the Amram Mitzan's decision to resign during the Lebanon War. Mitzna was commander of the IDF Command College at the time.