China domestic animals are raised to be killed for their fur

June 19, 2006

Post Removed

Edited June 21, 2006 by Greg

Riverwind · June 19, 2006

What can we do for them? Domestic animals are in big trouble in China

The fate of domestic animals in China is the least of our concerns. I think how China treats its human residents is a much higher priority.

I also don't understand this urban yuppie obsession with 'cute' animals. There are farmers near me that are losing thousands of dollars because of rampaging 'bunnies' and they can't get rid of them because of a city bylaw. I am sure watching any animal getting skinned is quite unpleasant but I don't see why we should be worried about a few cats when much worse happens to pigs, cows and chickens on a daily basis.

betsy · June 19, 2006

Perhaps you guys should try to help dogs and cats and other animals here in Canada first before you go meddling into someone else's turf and dictating about their cultures!

Sorry, but animal rights group had lost some credibility....thanks to zealots who'd gone as far as providing inaccurate and deliberately misleading information and video footage for press releases!

Use the donation you get to help fund animal shelters and help find caring homes for them. You can also get some vets to go town to town to give free spaying and neutering...thereby, preventing a lot of unwanted animals!

Oddman · June 19, 2006

Perhaps you guys should try to help dogs and cats and other animals here in Canada first before you go meddling into someone else's turf and dictating about their cultures!

Hmmmm....sound like a government we know? Anyone? Come one, I'll give you three guesses! :lol:

killjoy · June 19, 2006

Come one, I'll give you three guesses!

France: The Ivory Coast?

China: Taiwan and Mongolia?

Pakistan: It's influence over Afghanistan?

Belgium: Rwanda?

Britain: India?

There are so many.

I give up. Who?

.

geoffrey · June 19, 2006

Who cares, they are animals...

I eat them, wear them, ect... what does it really matter? If you want to protect the cuddly animals, you've got to also protect the skunks and other ugly creatures.

Sounds as bad as McCartney, out protecting the seals, only because they are cute, whilst not being vegan himself. Time to grow up and realise that animals are to be of our use, they have no conscience, they do not care.

theloniusfleabag · June 19, 2006

Dear geoffrey,

Time to grow up and realise that animals are to be of our use, they have no conscience, they do not care.

I beg to differ, but not here. This thread was begun as 'spam' and I sincerely hope it will be deleted.

Oddman · June 20, 2006

Well, as a blanket statement, wouldn't it make sense to use animals for food only. It seems pretty prehistoric that we kill for fashion runways, if you really think about it.

And before people sound off on people's incomes, I think part of evolving is that we can figure out other ways to help build economies. And I should also point out that before slavery was abolished, one of the main talking points for southern American states was that emancipation would hurt the economy. I am in now way equating animals with people, but the braoder argument is essentially the same.

Kindred · June 20, 2006

Seems to me that China has become a prime target for everything imaginable these days. Human Rights Violations, mistreatment of its citizens, starving children and now cats and dogs.

One would almost believe there are villians prowling the streets hunting for innocent little pets who strayed out after dark. This is nothing short of ridiculous - and ignorant to an extreme.

Instead of spouting Media propoganda against China why not just go there and see for yourselves whether these horrors really exist?

China has become the new "bogey man" of the US. Wonder if that means Bush is warming up for a war with China next? If he is going to become Supreme Leader of the world he is going to have to tangle with China sooner or later - start the propoganda machine now so people become bent out of shape over the imagined horrors visited upon the people of China.

News Flash Mao died in 1989. Since then China has been struggling to overcome years and years of suffering and human right violations and injustices.

The progress is nothing short of impressive, excellent Old Age and Disability Pensions, free housing for the poor and destitutie, free "food stores", freedom of religion, a mergence of tourism and capitalism with the "New Communism", improved working conditions and wages, environmental concerns and efforts to combat the effects of a country dependent on coal.

Messages running constantly on the TV to understand and support the mentally and physically disabled, promoting their abilities and programs to assist them .....

As for the terrorist police force in China you would have to really go some to get yourself arrested by the Chinese police. I have witnessed street fights where the police were called, dispersed the crowd, separated the combatants and sent them on their way -- no arrests.

I have witnessed protests outside of the City Halls with workers demanding higher wages and better benefits - kind of like Canada? No problem from the police. Tianamen Square, like Kent State was a long time ago ......

I have seen many many times the police blowing whistles and waving their arms and trying to hold back crowds of people from surging across a street before the walk light come on for them ..... they are just ignored. People arent afraid of the police.

Yes there is bribery and some corruption within the police force and Government officials, like there isnt in Canada, or the US?

The people who run into trouble with the police in China are the extremists, those who want to bring back Maoism, those who traffic in drugs and human beings, plus your run of the mill, garden variety crooks, B&E artists and criminals.

I also witnessed a break in at a Canadian School in which many Cdn teachers had passports, money and electronic toys stolen - police showed up, listened to a hysterical witness who "identified" four suspects among the local workers, based on the fact that they were wearing brown shirts -- :blink: and demanded the police arrest them and charge them --

When cooler heads prevailed, telling the police this person had no idea who had broken into her apartment, yes she saw "someone in a brown shirt" - the "suspects" were released and allowed to return to work.

No beatings, no one forced to kneel while he has the back of his head blown off -- no yelling, screaming, torture, or other mistreatment --

One still hears stories of police blocks every mile on the highways demanding "travel documents" and other bullsh*t stories about China ...... go there yourself, talk to the people ......... find out the truth.

There is a amazingly low crime rate in China too. Something we could use in Canada and the US. I feel much safer there than I do in Canada. If they take a hard approach to criminals is that a bad thing?

Oh yah about the cats and dogs, in Northern China they eat dogs, in Southern China they eat cats .... get over it, we eat cows and in some places in this world that makes us total barbarians ......

And you dont see people's pets out for a stroll in the evening in China. Isnt that a novel idea? Pets are walked by their owners, coddled and fussed over and dont become a nuisance to their neighbours ... no packs of wild cats reproducing all the place ...

Countries like Canada and the US should clean up their own mess before they point their fingers at others. If we treated our children as well as the Chinese treat theirs this would be a much much better country to live in.

Why are so many activitists in Canada concerned with the welfare of animals when so many CHILDREN are living in poverty with inadequate housing and essentials? Our society is so screwed up when it comes to things like this ....... protect the doggies and the seals but let the children suffer? Its a collective insanity in Western countries.

Over 5 million people in Canada live in extreme poverty and we point the finger at other countries? Send aid to fight poverty in China? In other countries, pour money into programs to assist the disabled in places like Mexico? While our own disabled are treated like fourth class citizens here, forced to live in extreme poverty without adequate housing, food or clothing?

Women in China can have more than one child if they pay the Medical costs for the additional babies. There arent "abortion police" breaking down doors and counting baby heads ....... and yes, I saw hundreds and hundred of baby girls ... little girls, dressed and treated like little princesses ........

Did I go off the beaten track, get outside the tourist venue, yes I did - into rural China, into Hutongs, into the less than pretty areas of the cities, into fishing and agricultural villages ...

If we gave our disabled workers the same consideration China does we could erradicate a lot of the poverty and suffering in this country ...

If we provided free post secondary education for our young people we could also solve a lot of poverty issues in Canada ..........

Medical coverage provided by employers and the Government. You get sick in China and you get immediate treatment, you are having a CT Scan and seeing a Specialist within the hour. People arent dying on waiting lists.

People hear the word "communism" and the only definition they think of is one planted into their brains by the US propoganda machine --- its appalling that our knowledge of the world stalled back into the 1950's ..... and we've been content to be brain dead since then ........

The problem that the US has with China is that the "New Communism" seems to be working well - for the economy and for the people. The Chinese people emerged from years of oppression, not as surly, nasty, discontents bent on criminal activity as did other oppressed countries, but with a combined unity of purpose and a cohesive mind to make their country great - and a warm and hospitable kindess towards others.

Chinese kids are taught the Analects of Confuscious in primary schools and they embrace the philosophy behind his teachings. This doesnt agree with our "dog eat dog" philosophy in the west .....

A long post but this propoganda against China really frosts my socks, burns my butt, makes me very very angry, the ignorance behind it and the mindless acceptance and perpetuation by our brain dead media of this crap is something I find appalling..

Bogey man China? Give me a break already .......

Riverwind · June 20, 2006

News Flash Mao died in 1989. Since then China has been struggling to overcome years and years of suffering and human right violations and injustices.

Mao died in 1976. You need to get your facts straight. China is a one party state where political dissent is not allowed. People are jailed, tortured and killed for saying anything the makes the gov't look bad. Furthermore, the Chinese gov't makes no apologies for these abuses and has no intentions of changing any time soon.

I have witnessed protests outside of the City Halls with workers demanding higher wages and better benefits - kind of like Canada? No problem from the police. Tiananmen Square, like Kent State was a long time ago ......

Americans are free to talk about what happened at Kent State and criticize the gov't for the mistakes it made. The Chinese actively punishes anyone who tries to question the official explanation for Tiananmen.

Chinese kids are taught the Analects of Confucius in primary schools and they embrace the philosophy behind his teachings. This doesn't agree with our "dog eat dog" philosophy in the west .....

Chinese kids are taught to never question authority and to accept that they are only allowed to learn the things that the gov't wants them to learn. China blocks all Internet sites that talk about heresies such as 'democracy' and 'human rights'.

Bogey man China? Give me a break already .......

The are 1.3 billion people in China being kept ignorant of the outside world by a corrupt gov't that only cares about staying in power. This is an extremely dangerous situation that could lead to WW3.

Shady · June 20, 2006

The fate of domestic animals in China is the least of our concerns. I think how China treats its human residents is a much higher priority

Agreed.

China is a one party state where political dissent is not allowed. People are jailed, tortured and killed for saying anything the makes the gov't look bad. Furthermore, the Chinese gov't makes no apologies for these abuses and has no intentions of changing any time soon

Exactly.

Americans are free to talk about what happened at Kent State and criticize the gov't for the mistakes it made. The Chinese actively punishes anyone who tries to question the official explanation for Tiananmen

Exactly.

Riverwind pretty much nailed it. Kindred, attacking America while defending China is about as ridiculous as it gets. There is no equivalence between the government of China and any free Democratic Republic. Pretty ignorant.

Kindred · June 20, 2006

Have either of you actually lived in China? Where do you get your information from? China is not a closed country as you seem to think it is

News Flash China cable carries CNN, and BBC and they actually have satelite dishes and can watch whatever they want to on TV. Movies are for sale by the millions - on the street, in stores, everywhere you go there are DVDs of the latest and classic movies ........

Jeeze, stop spouting stupid crap that you heard somewhere --

"Ignorant of the rest of the world" when most of their graduates are going to Canada, the US and England to University? And have for years, we have met dozens of students who have attended university in Canada and the US and returned to China to live and work --The training and education of international students in Canada alone has an estimated $4 billion economic impact.

There is also a significant number of Canadian and American students studying in China, the communication and cross cultural exposure flows both ways ........ do you think these students, teachers, business people, tourists dont talk to Chinese people? Dont make friends in China? Dont get into discussions with them?

110 million private users are on the internet in China, and those are estimates. Every block has two or three internet cafes ..... the Chinese are talking with people from all over the world. I have routinely accessed dozens of sites that contain information about democracy, world affairs, history, whatever - millions of people are taking online courses from inside China.

China does NOT block these internet sites, you are believing lies, propoganda and fairy tales .... how can you just swallow all of this and not question how valid it is?

Almost every hotel room, rental accomodation comes with an internet connection.

They have bookstores in China and some of them even carry books like "Wild Swans" I found it in a library in China -- have you ever read it? Books on politics, democracy etc. And every book of Classic Literature you can think of or want to read ........

There are thousands of "English Corners" and discussion groups in China, informal gathering of young people and foreigners that get together to discuss anything ... and everything ......

Canadian High Schools, English High Schools, American Highschools are all over China, the teachers are from Canada, the US, and England, Australia, Europe, from all over the world .... they teach history and world politics etc.

Get real ...... you have NO idea what you are talking about ........

I have talked to dozens of people about Tianamen Square, and surprise no one was killed, tortured or jailed! This includes people employed in the media in China, Chinese people. The Chinese people love to talk to foreigners, they ask about the cost of living, the living conditions, working conditions, our Social Programs, our Government etc.

You are right I did get the dates for Mao's death wrong. I apologize.

As I said I am fed up with people spouting off a bunch of propoganda crap they "learned" from the popular media -

Your so called facts are fiction heresay

The people in Canada and the US are more ignorant of the conditions and lives of the people in other countries than the Chinese are .... how many discussion groups comprised of young Canadians and Americans do you know of?

Seems to me Canada, England and the US are adverse to torturing "political dissidents" and "suspected terrorits" - holding them in jail for years without formally charging them, torturing them ?

Its okay when we do it? Is that how it works?

From a Christian Magazine online

Most striking is what appears to be a public admittance by Beijing that Christianity is not only on the rise but is growing rapidly - and that the church is benefiting a spiritually hungry population that is growing more "individualistic.".........."Christianity is growing quickly here, faster maybe than in any other part of the world," says Gao Ying, vice president of the Beijing Christian Council. "Individualism is growing, and people need to feel love and community."

The Bible is legally printed and sold in China. Jewellry stores carry Christian crosses and symbols.

From the Open Doors website : The last 30 years have seen great progress for the cause of religious liberty in China, resulting in remarkable opportunities for overseas Christians to serve and witness in Chinese society. The ideological oppression of the Cultural Revolution (1966-76) is long gone, and as China opens up its economy to global forces, it is now possible to work legally within China and partner with local Christians, albeit primarily with the official church as yet.

More than thirty million Bibles have been legally printed and sold since 1987.

I will admit that change and tolerance is slower in coming to remote rural areas of the country. The Chinese version of NA's "redneck intolerance of different cultures, races and religions".

Even the Rolling Stones and other groups have toured in China.

The first visit to China by the Rolling Stones was officially announced by promoters, who said the band would play on April 1 in Shanghai and on April 4 in Beijing. The Ministry of Culture, which once viewed rock music as ''spiritual pollution,'' approved the concerts in early February but plans for the shows were completed only this week, said Chen Jixin, a promoter. Despite its approval, the ministry might not agree with Ms. Chen's assessment that ''the Rolling Stones concert in Beijing will be the most significant event in China's performing arts history.''

From Yale University Dept of Public Affairs

The educational dimension of the Deng Xiaoping's reforms

An important ingredient of Mr. Deng's Open Door Policy was an understanding that progress would be promoted by greater openness in education. In October 1978, Mr. Deng said,

"I support the increase in the number of students going abroad for further study, up to thousands and tens of thousands. On one hand, it serves to raise the standards of our own colleges and universities Éand we can learn more about situations and problems in need of solving."

Mr. Deng correctly foresaw that this development would help China to modernize its technology and its economy. What he did not emphasize at the time was how the flow of students across borders would also lead to greater mutual understanding. We have developed a deeper appreciation for the distinctive elements in Chinese and western cultures while at the same time recognizing our common humanity and our common interest in working together.

Have we really? Or are people in the west still woefully ignorant of what China is like? People who have never set foot in China, never talked to the people, never taught the young people of China, never participated in open discussion groups, never lived in China. :rolleyes:

Kindred · June 20, 2006

So how many people have been interrogated and arrested in the US for speaking out against the Government and been put on a hit list of "suspected terrorists"? Seems to me I saw a doc about that just a few days ago ...........

Oddman · June 21, 2006

Literally thousands of doctrines written by Chinese scholars have been discovered to be forged from their students who are slowl surpassing their elders in many areas of intellectual prowess.

And if Tibet is any example, China is still very far away from being a model country.

Charles Anthony · June 21, 2006

First, I would like to extend a warm welcome to all of the employees of the Chinese government who are paid to troll the internet and spread Chinese government lies.

Second, I would like to extend my deepest sympathies to the victims of China's evil industrial empire: its own people.

This thread was begun as 'spam' and I sincerely hope it will be deleted.

Unfortunately, this thread seems to have taken a turn beyond its origins.

Where do you get your information from?

We get our information from Chinese people who have left China. We do NOT get our information from Chinese people who work for the Chinese government.

The ironic thing about China's "New Communism" is that it has become the most horrifying realization of what Karl Marx predicted would become of a capitalist society: an elite class controlling, enslaving and abusing a labor class.

Riverwind · June 21, 2006

Have either of you actually lived in China? Where do you get your information from? China is not a closed country as you seem to think it is

I tried posting on a English discussion forum in China. My posts were deleted in within a few minutes because I politely suggested that the future of Taiwan should be decided by the people of Taiwan. Most western companies cut deals with the Chinese gov't in order to offer their services. See the recent deal Google made. Here is another article which illustrates how the Chinese gov't seeks to keep its people ignorant of the world. If Chinese people are so free then why does the Chinese gov't want to control their access to the Internet?

Yahoo, Microsoft, Google, Cisco and other major Internet service and equipment providers have come under scrutiny for helping China to monitor and censor content available to China's 100 million Internet users.
Chinese Internet experts say Google and Yahoo routinely exclude sensitive political or religious information from searches conducted by users in mainland China. Microsoft's MSN has come under attack for restricting the content of Web logs, or blogs, it hosts in China

mcqueen625 · June 21, 2006

SIGN PETITION TO PRESIDENT OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA AND CHINESE EMBASSIES
International Organization for the Animal Protection (OIPA) and our site Animalprot.com

What can we do for them? Domestic animals are in big trouble in China

When you visit our petition-page you will find a link to the video files of this cruelty.

Dogs and cats killed for fur Video

VERY IMPORTANT: We ask people with unstable nervous-system not to watch this, and don't give children to watch this as well!

If you are are agree with us - enter your name, SIGN THE LETTER this letter, maybe it will help to save one small, beautifull cat or someone's best dog-friend.

With the level of taxation in Canada, many of our own residents may have to resort to doing the same thing in order to stay warm. I could care less about their stupid animals, and the only animal I can get excited about that is being abused in China is their own people.

Kindred · June 21, 2006

So much better to sit on your butt and take someone else's word for what something is like.

You should be able to research, find out things for yourself, investigate, ask questions, talk to people, and formulate your own answers based on research, not just parrot things you have heard or read through very selective reading, and only one point of view ........

There are Americans coming to Canada trying to claim refugee status and claiming they are being persecuted and their lives are in danger in the US. There will always be dissidents from whatever country of origin. That doesnt mean we accept their stories at face value - think of the millions of refugees we would be allowing into the country if we just accepted what people say - and didnt make an effort to learn the truth behind the stories.

Of course it benefits these "refugees" to tell tales of horror, they want to live in Canada.

There are thousands of legitimate refugees applying to canada, but most people want to come here for economic reasons.

There are people in prisons in China who are wrongly or unjustly accused, there are people in Canadian prisons who have been wrongly commited by corrupt officials, and in American prisons as well. David Milgard, (sp?) Stephen Trucott .....

Its almost laughable to hear someone talking about Human Rights Violations in any country and then presenting the US or Canada as an example of "democracy and respect for human rights".

Those Chinese people who have come to tell their stories were imprisoned and persecuted following Tianimen Square, before the new Government came into power.

Yes they were treated badly, horribly, but that is now history. China isnt the same China it was back then, thats what you dont seem to get ---- What was happening in Canada in the 1980's ?

Canada News Archives Clip A Supreme Court ruling comes down, and a Northwest Territories mechanic named George Klippert is on his way to jail. His crime is that he is a homosexual. In this CBC Radio clip, Bud Orange, Klippert's MP, says he hopes the government is forced to make a move as a result of the ruling. Justice Minister Pierre Trudeau responds that proposed changes to the criminal code will prevent more cases like Klippert's.

Wow should we believe this is still the case in Canada today? Of course not, no more than China is still the China of the 1980's and Mao years.

BUT what about Human Rights in Canada today?

TORONTO, FEBRUARY, 2006 -- It seems that Black History Month is an

appropriate time to reflect on the case of one Douglas Gary Freeman (the

former Joseph Coleman Pannell, Jr.), a 56-year-old African American man

sitting in a Canadian jail almost two years as he fights extradition to

the United States.

Supporters of five Muslim men being held without charge by Ottawa protested and presented petitions to the Prime Minister's office yesterday. The detention of the men seems to be shrouded in mystery. They were held on the basis of 'security certificates' by the Canadian Security Intelligence Sevice (CSIS).

Somehow, this story has been percolating for at least two years and it's only starting to get some attention now. Perhaps, that's due to fear on the part of family members and friends of the detainees. After all, if these guys can be held without charges or trial, what's to stop CSIS from arresting anyone who speaks out against the arrests.

And another case.........

The four men at the Kingston holding centre, as well as Montrealer Adil Charkaoui (who was released on bail in 2005), are known as Canada's Secret Trial Five. They have been imprisoned without charges for up to five years and face possible deportation and torture. One of the organizers of the weekend event, Tatiana Gomez, explained the shortcomings of public inquiries, which are usually arranged by the state. "Who gets to speak is very selective," she argues.

Omar Khadr

Detained in July 2002 near Khost, Afghanistan at age 15 accused of killing a U.S. serviceman

Being held in Guantanamo Bay.

I meet Hassan here in Canada, at the Toronto West Detenton Centre near Pearson International Airport. In these first encounters, in the spring of 2005, he tells me his story. Since October 2001, his home has been a nine-by-12-foot concrete cell. A small window well above his head lets in a little natural light. A fluorescent tube otherwise lights his cell, dimming slightly at night. His bed is a concrete slab with a thin mattress. A metal table is affixed to the wall. He has no chair. The door to his cell is steel; his meals are passed through a slot. Every day, he is allowed to leave his cell for a shower, always under supervision. A few times a week, he is permitted to stroll for a few minutes in an outside enclosure -- concrete walls on all sides, but with an open sky above.....................

Why indeed is Hassan in solitary confinement in a Canadian prison? He laughs again: "The government thinks I am a terrorist, that I am a threat to national security!" Hassan has not been charged, has not even been able to learn the reasons for his detention, only the damning allegation that he is a danger to the Canadian public. Any national security evidence that the government holds against him is kept secret and neither he nor his lawyers nor the Canadian public can challenge that. The government has successfully convinced a federal judge that Hassan is a security threat, that he should be deported and, until that time, held in custody........

Hassan is a Muslim, as are all the detainees. His security certificate was issued in October 2001, only weeks after Sept. 11. Those were panicked times, amid accusations the hijackers had entered the United States from Canada. George W. Bush was aggressively telling the world that countries were either with the U.S. in its war on terror or against it. Canada, meanwhile, was scrambling to put together a coherent anti-terror policy.

.

Not in Canada 'eh?

As for Taiwan, I have noticed how Canada has so happily embraced the idea of Quebec separating from Canada over the years - and BC and Alberta joining the US --- of course any country other than China would welcome and assist those provinces and territories that want to separate. No one would ever oppose it - not us, not the "good guys" ........ nothing like that could or would ever happen here .........

1969 July: Increasing number of riots and bombs as politicians adopt an increasing number of anti- democratic measures vis-à-vis francophones; Oct. - Dec.: James Cross, head of the British Trade Commission in Montréal, and subsequently Pierre Laporte, Québec Minister of Labour and Manpower, kidnapped by the FLQ; Oct. 17. Trudeau invokes War Measures Act, imprisoning all those opposing federalist ideas. Pierre Laporte is found, assassinated. Cross is freed Dec. 3.

As I said before "not in Canada 'eh?" People in glass houses......

I have posted to this topic on the internet with no problem, perhaps it was the moderator of the group who didnt care for what you had to say .... if my posts were deleted from here I wouldnt blame the Canadian Government :rolleyes:

How many people would China have to employ to monitor EVERY forum, EVERY internet site, EVERY post, EVERY single thing said on the internet? Anyone want to figure that one out?

Riverwind · June 21, 2006

There are people in prisons in China who are wrongly or unjustly accused, there are people in Canadian prisons who have been wrongly commited by corrupt officials, and in American prisons as well. David Milgard, (sp?) Stephen Trucott .....

Give me one example where the Chinese gov't has admitted it made a mistake, paid compensation to the victim and held a public inquiry to find out what went wrong?

As for Taiwan, I have noticed how Canada has so happily embraced the idea of Quebec separating from Canada over the years

Taiwan is a seperate country today. The only reason it is not acknowledged as a seperate country is because the Chinese gov't threatens to break relations with any country that does not pretend that Taiwan is a province. The entire issue is a joke and simply illustrates how the Chinese gov't is irrational and dangerous.

How many people would China have to employ to monitor EVERY forum, EVERY internet site, EVERY post, EVERY single thing said on the internet? Anyone want to figure that one out?

Why does the Chinese gov't threaten to shut companies like Google, Yahoo and Microsoft out of China if they do not help the Chinese gov't supress information on topics like democracy, Tiawan and Tibet?

Kindred · June 21, 2006

My point in posting is that ignorance breeds hate and fear and war and if you prefer to hang onto your ignorance and hate then go for it - people like you are dangerous, you embrace your ignorance as if it were the Holy Grail. Lets fight the whole world, dominate everyone who isnt just like us, who dont think like us, believe in our hypocritical preaching about how perfect the West is ......and ignore our own Human Rights Violations .........

I have lived in China, I know what its like for the people, and I know how much lies and propoganda there is about China ...

You're like a puppet on the end of a string - mindless blind acceptance -- never questioning, never leaving the comfort of your own narrow little space, never finding out the truth for yourself --

Any country, any culture, any race that isnt a cookie cutter shape of yours is wrong. And yours is perfect of course --- Its this blind, ignorant, oblivious narrow minded secular society in the West that is so damn dangerous in its lack of knowledge, curiousity and awareness of other cultures, other people. Hell even its OWN Human Rights Violations etc.

I would dare to guess you may have run into Falun Gong people. A cult that is engaged in criminal activity, brain washing, extortion and who's purpose is to elimnate all gays, homeless people, the poor, the disabled and anyone who opposes them and their agenda. Many of the followers have killed their families, homeless people, gays etc in fact more than 1600 people have already been killed in China by Falun Gong.

And yes, they are in Canada and the US and very vocal and running into trouble here already - they have damaged media outlets in China, hampered the SARS efforts, because Hongzhi told them it was punishment from heaven for evil people, plotted against the Government, Master Li Hongzhi is the supreme being, the Creator and his purpose is to rule the world, guess he and Bush will have to fight for that right .........

So yah they are being arrested for their activities and then crying foul all around the world ...

Riverwind · June 21, 2006

My point in posting is that ignorance breeds hate and fear and war

I think everyone knows that the human rights record of most western countries in not perfect, however, you can't ignore the fact that in Canada people are free to disagree with gov't without fear of being thrown in jail. Some Canadians seem to be willing sacrifice some human rights to fight the war on terror, however, no one believes the gov't should try to censor the internet in order to protect public safety. I think everyone would trust the Chinese gov't more if they believed that the Chinese people had access to all the information they need to make informed decisions about their society and the world. The Chinese gov't can never earn that trust until it stops blocking information from the rest of the world and allows the Chinese people to publically criticize the gov't.

Kindred · June 21, 2006

Ok I am going to say this again, they dont block internet sites, because of the HUGE volume of internet traffic in Asia at certain times of the day its hard to get onto many sites, even hotmail at times.

The Chinese Government does want internet servers and sites to register with them - they have a real thing for organization in China.

And I mean a REAL THING for organization. If people are getting together for a picnic or cherry picking they want to assign everyone a number and have you travel in numeric order - and this is just the average Chinese citizen. Too bad they dont do the same when it comes to queuing -

And once again in China I can access cbcnews.ca and ctvnews.ca and the BBC, and the cnn and msn and canoe, and Al Jazerra and whatever news site I want to - including Rabble and my local news site - any newspapers I want to access. A lot of people have satelite dishes - and our cable had CNN news and BBC news, and a movie channel - hollywood movies.

You can listen to internet radio - I found a reggae station to listen to -- and you can access all kinds of forums from China, access to information is NOT restricted in China, in any way.

The last Empress Dowager sent hundreds of people to school in England, Canada and the US, Mao closed down the country to any outsiders, closed schools and punished scholars and educated people, since his death and the fall of Maoism thousands of students are attending university in the West.

Hundreds of students from the West are attending schools in China.

And as I said before there are a lot of Canadian, American, and English highschools and colleges in China with teachers from those countries and Europe and Australia and from all over the world --

So for the last time, China does not restrict access to information. china is really heavily into electronics and believe me the information highway is wide open and accessible to anyone ............[/b

As for monitoring internet use have you checked to see what spyware you installed on your computer if you ihave nstalled printer software? Its everywhere these days - you think Canada and the US arent monitoring your internet ?

the program, found on the Lexmark X5250 installation software, embeds itself in the registry and monitors the use of the printer through DLL files in the c:\program_files\lexmark500 folder.

The program sends the information, which includes print and scanning data, and sends it a datebase owned by Lexmark

look for a nasty little file called lx_CATS.ini

The US government has succeeded in persuading some color laser printer manufacturers to encode each page with identifying information. That means that without your knowledge or consent, an act you assume is private could become public. A communication tool you're using in everyday life could become a tool for government surveillance. And what's worse, there are no laws to prevent abuse.

It all sounds very sensationalist, doesn't it? What has set alarm bells off is the news that the FBI has been collecting documents on non-violent groups such as the ALCU, Greenpeace and United for Peace and Justice. The concern here being that the FBI will be able to find out who has been printing what.

Riverwind · June 21, 2006

Ok I am going to say this again, they dont block internet sites, because of the HUGE volume of internet traffic in Asia at certain times of the day its hard to get onto many sites, even hotmail at times.

You are living in denial:

Google has offered a Chinese-language version of its search engine for years but users have been frustrated by government blocks on the site.
The company is setting up a new site - Google.cn - which it will censor itself to satisfy the authorities in Beijing.

Google's reputation was severly damaged by this move. Why would a company like Google do something like this if the Chinese gov't provides free and open access?

You are making the claim based on your anecdotal experience that Chinese have access to any information they want. Yet, huge company like Google tells a US senate committee that it is censoring searches inside China because of restrictions imposed by the Chinese gov't. Based on the evidence available to me now I believe Google is telling the truth because they have no incentive to lie about this issue.

You claim the Fan Lung Gong is a dangerous cult yet we have no problems with the number members living in Vancouver. They seem to be quite peaceful - even if their belief systems are quite wacky. Their opinions on gays are no worse than the opinions of many Christians. The behavoir makes it hard to believe the Chinese gov't claims that they are a dangerous cult.

Kindred · June 21, 2006

The only problem I had with google in China was all the porn sidebars it dumped on my computer that were impossible to get rid of - they denied that of course, which IMO means google cant be believed no matter what they say - everyone who used google in China had problems with porn sidebars. Now why would the Chinese Govt want to dump porn on peoples computers?

As Andrew Brown recently reported on openDemocracy, Google collects mountains of IP-address-linked data about the search behaviour of all its customers. The more services you sign up for with Google (Gmail, Desktop, Homepage) the more Google knows about you, knowledge that it shares with third parties, for example, to make better-targeted ads. This is its core business model, and the reason why small ads are so successful. To keep our information flowing into the Googleplex, Google relies on a high level of either ignorance or (one hopes, more likely) trust from its users.................So our next question should be, how much data are you logging about your new Chinese customers, Google? And what will you do when the Chinese authorities ask you to hand it over? In fact, this question has already been put privately to a senior contact at Google by British web commentator Bill Thompson, who is awaiting a response.

The questions don't end there. Google has obviously been taking a lot of time and care with its launch in China. In June 2004 it bought a 2.4% stake in China's biggest search engine, Baidu, to get a feel for the place. Then, in April 2005, it paid a rather large sum of money (in Chinese terms) to wrest control of the google.cn domain name from an enterprising cyber-squatter. And in September last year Google saw off a lawsuit from Microsoft to secure the services of the latter's Vice President, Lee Kai-Fu, as Google's man in China. Kai Fu was joined by Johnny Chou, with the aim of building a fifty-strong research and development team inside PRC.

One clue might lie in the feature of google.cn that sets it apart from the other global search providers, like MSN and Yahoo!, operating inside China. This feature – much lauded in the official statements given by Google on the day of the launch – is that google.cn tells its customers when their search results have been "filtered". How Google got that concession from the Chinese authorities might go some way to explaining why it took so long to release google.cn. But the question then has to be, what did Google offer in return?

Sorry there is no such message popping up when you "google" in China, google lies - its all about them collecting huge amounts of data on their users that they can sell to the highest bidder - Google is a public company and like all big companies profit is the bottom line ........

Seems to be that all of China is on ADSL China telecom , and it can be totally swamped at times ....... imagine if most of us had one server and one time zone. But then of course I am probably just lying about the problems often experienced in getting onto the internet in China ... being a Chinese Govt Official and all that --

Live From China · June 21, 2006

OK, my first post, and I am really writing from China!

Kindred is not in denial. According to the logic used by some posters, I should not be able to access this site because it is criticizing the Chinese government. In fact, I routinely access sites that criticize the government, e.g., Amnesty International. But of course, I am probably an agent of the Chinese government, right?

No one, especially Kindred, has admitted that China is perfect. But that is changing, slowly but surely. Kindred's ideas seem well researched and all her critics are just naysaying. Hardly the basis for well-informed discussion. Seems to me that someone who has lived here, should probably know more about the country. Please critics, get on a plane to Beijing and spend some time here! I promise I won't have you arrested!

Again, no one said that the Middle Kingdom was perfect. Yes, there have been human rights abuses. And so what if the government hasn't admitted to their mistakes. This is changing, and China is well aware that its abuses are front and centre on the world stage. You can talk about Tiananmen Square. You can buy "Wild Swans" here without much problem. Not everyone here is an agent of the government.

I pretty well agree with everything Kindred says. Of course, she is probably an agent of the regime!