Discipline/Spanking Children

[slimm]

What do you think;

Do all children need discpline to correct poor behaviour, or do they just "grow out of it"?

Is spanking really necessary?

[BubberMiley]

It's never necessary but some people enjoy it because it relieves a whole lot of frustration.

[slimm]

I agree, but do you think never disciplining a child allows them to grow up in a negative way?

[BubberMiley]

Children have to be constantly disciplined, and violence can be quite effective in getting desired results. The only problem with it is kids usually see their parents as role models, so if the parents behave violently, the kids will too.

[Riverwind]

Do all children need discpline to correct poor behaviour, or do they just "grow out of it"?

It is impossible to say for sure. It depends on the kid and the over relationship with the parent. The vast majority of kids grow up with no problems if disciplined appropriately. However, there are kids who are harmed by spanking. In other words, parents should look for alternatives because there is a risk.

Is spanking really necessary?

I might have said yes before I had kids. Now I say no. There are many alternatives available that don't involve physical violance. However, finding alternatives may require creative thinking and you have to know what motivates your kid.

[Slavik44]

I think it is a very dangerous and slippery slope to be on when we equate Spanking for punishment. While Punishment needs to be used for control of children when they do something wrong, it is a mistake to think that the form of punishment must be a spanking. Every parent tells their children that they are unique, one of a kind and special, it seems somewhat absurd then that peoples first hand recomendation for punishment is always spanking, as if spanking is the only punishment or the best form of punishment for any and every child, completely and utterly absurd. Perhaps before anyone jumps on the spanking bandwagon they should first try multiple methods of punishment in good faith to the method and not some half assed job. Perhaps you could sit down and watch super nany for a while, hey she seems to get some of the biggest brats in the world under control, with out spanking, in less then a week.

I think sometimes spanking is over rated, a guy at work went on about how spanking was the best method of punishment and it worked so well for his kids, of course his daughter got knocked up at age 14. For me I say bulshit to the effects of spanking, it never stopped me from doing anything bad, I never had that thought, I might get spanked, in my mind at all. It wasn't until after I did something wrong that I tried to cover it up and when I couldn't cover it up I got scared shitless. Just the word spanking was enough to scare the hell out of me, the word is etched in my mind as being nothing more then a crude form of psychological terrorism. But when you're having fun out playing in the mud you never think that, hey I might get in trouble for this. I have a very big bone to pick with people who wave spanking around as some sort of miracle cure for all societies ills. Its not, there are better methods, more effective methods, and less harmfull methods, Punishment might be better then no punishment at all but don't belive for a second that spanking is always the best method of punishment, or neccasary for a proper up brining.

Most members of this forum, have posted their opinions in a thread titled "Child Discipline", the thread was originally started by Betsy, and it was in the moral and religous issues section, a quick search could probabley find it. You could probabley read through that to get an understanding of most members opinions and after that give your own, it may be easier to renew a debate from that thread then simply starting another one.

[slimm]

yes, but my "debate" is focusing more on disciplining children, not so much on spanking.

[betsy]

What do you think;

Do all children need discpline to correct poor behaviour, or do they just "grow out of it"?

Is spanking really necessary?

Do children need discipline to correct poor behaviour? I'd say, yes. Definitely.

Even adults have to have discipline. Self-discipline, that is.

But what kind of discipline? That depends.

[sahara]

I have 4 children all pretty much grown( ihave a 3 yr old grandchild) I would like to say i never spanked my kids, but yes they got the occasional swat. However my one son had/has ADD and ODD and it is different to parent these children. With him I didn't "sweat" the little stuff and i don't beleive i ever spanked him as it would have been useless anyway. I don't think there is a "right" way to discipline a child. Do i beleive in spanking, in retrospect i don't beleive I do,but my dad gave me some swats and I certainly had more respect then some (NOT ALL by any MEANS) kids i see around today. Hard thing.

[Moron-X]

I think it's safe to say that the way kids are acting today is far different then from how they acted in past years. Historically if you misbehaved in school, you were given the strap or the switch. Today if a teacher yells at a kid, the teacher is in the wrong.

Past teachers put the fear of god into children, and you know what....THEY BEHAVED.........otherwise, they got whacked harder. Physical dicipline would drasitcally change how our kids behave in society. I believe our schools would run smoother, there would be fewer violent issues, and our kids would grow up better people.

But hey......Thats me.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Moron-X,

Past teachers put the fear of god into children, and you know what....THEY BEHAVED

Indeed, one of my old signatures was "Corporal Punishment is better than General Mayhem". There certainly must be a limit, and a balance, of what constitutes 'reasonable force' when it comes to discipline, and I am personally glad that the courts recently upheld the 'spanking laws'.

Our society has made it too easy to avoid personal responsibility, and some form of discipline is needed to teach children that there are consequences to actions. Sometimes it should be a reward, sometimes it needs to be 'hot backside'.

[Charles Anthony]

"Corporal Punishment is better than General Mayhem". There certainly must be a limit, and a balance, of what constitutes 'reasonable force' when it comes to discipline, and I am personally glad that the courts recently upheld the 'spanking laws'.

In the entire history of mankind, corporal punishment is practically tradition. It is only recently that people are considering the possibility that corporal punishment actually breeds subsequent generations of people who think it must be natural to use violence to settle disputes between eachother.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Charles Anthony,

It is only recently that people are considering the possibility that corporal punishment actually breeds subsequent generations of people who think it must be natural to use violence to settle disputes between eachother.

It is also 'only recently' that people are able to argue that they should be able to do what they want and have a good chance of suffering no consequences for their actions. I recently saw a teenager 'jostle' a man (and then threaten to have he and his friends kick his ass) on the C-train, and then use the excuse "I'm a minor, you can't touch me" to avoid repercussions, is a direct sympotom/result of having that kid growing up with nothing to fear. If my dad found out I did something like that (being an asshole in public, disrespecting my elders, etc.) I would have had my ass whooped. Looking back, I would say it would have been well-deserved.

[Charles Anthony]

"I'm a minor, you can't touch me" to avoid repercussions, is a direct sympotom/result of having that kid growing up with nothing to fear.

The trouble is that the kid is right. The laws have changed to make it so.

What leads the kid to developing that attitude? I believe it is a result of them using their parents example to suit their own ends.

If my dad found out I did something like that (being an asshole in public, disrespecting my elders, etc.) I would have had my ass whooped. Looking back, I would say it would have been well-deserved.

However, if your parents ever made a mistake so that occasionally you did not fully understand your actions vis-a-vis your corporal punishment (some parents are not prudent when they dish out punishment) you may grow up developing the instinct that the one with the more strength or power can physically control those who do not have the power. If a child feels he is punished unfairly, he WILL NOT learn discipline, he will learn to exert force. Kids immitate their parents (or "care-givers").

I believe that the increase in "minor, cant touch me" attitude governing youth violence is a direct combination of the new laws mixed with kids who learned violence.

I believe kids were not born violent.

I believe kids learn violence from their surroundings.

HOW kids interpret the use of violence is the responsibility of their parents.

[geoffrey]

I wouldn't mind giving some of those kids you see on the c-train coming home from work a good smack every once in awhile.

There has been a decline in corporal discipline over the years, and a decrease in the respect children give to adults/police/ect.. Is there a link? I don't know.

[Charles Anthony]

Should we have corporal punishment for adults who commit crimes???

[Rue]

Spanking in itself is not the issue. What we are really talking about is what kind of tools should a parent engage in when disciplining a child, because of course children need to be disciplined.

The notion that spanking is bad is simplistic. A slap on a child's bumb when it is screaming and trying to do something dangerous is sometimes necessary.

Sometimes a child needs a concrete physical reaction to calm them down.

You can not debate or reason with a child of 2 or 3 or 4. In fact trying to reason with them only makes their tantrums worse.

No I can see where we have to draw a line at hurting children and using too much excessive force and/or in trying to understand that being violent or abusive or losing our tempers at children is dangerous and harmful but a simple spank on the bum or a slap on the hand if a child is trying to touch something hot may be necessary.

I think what happened in the 60's is that a lot of people took Dr. Spock's book on child rearing very seriously and this is where the notion came from that we should reason with children.

Well it brought up a whole bunch of spoiled baby boomers who have gone on to be large assholes precisely because no one has said no to them.

I have two daughters and never raised a hand to them but their mother had a wood spoon (she never used) and they knew she would have used it so they never messed with her. Me I was a push over but there were certain things they knew I would not compromise on, i.e., their safety.

So no I wouldn't worry about a spanking unless it becomes violent and an expression of anger and abuse.

Used with care and control and for a specific purpose, it can be useful or helpful. Particularly if you have a child trying to touch something hot or who runs in front of traffic. In such cases they need an immediate message of negativity attached to their consequence. In that respect they are no different then a dog. If youd on't discipline them immediately they don't attach any discipline to the deed. Behaviour modification on a dog and child is similiar. Its all in the tone of your voice. A good trainer never has to hit their dog or if they do its a small tap that isn't designed to hurt. Its like a horse, if they try bite you, you have to slap them to show you are in charge but never to hurt them or humiliate them. Children too. The name of the game is not to hurt or humiliate and obviously the older they get the less necessary it becomes until the pt. where you can just rely on words and tone of voice.

At least that is what I think.

Then again I was severely beaten as a child many a time, so please do not think I condone abuse. But I also think some parents are very loving who give a slight spank on the bottom.

I also think we should be careful to balance protecting children from violent abuse from mild incidents where this is not the case but someone intervenes and over-reacts. I know its tought to differentiate and as a child I often wished someone would have noticed my black eyes or bruises but in those days no one talked about it.

[betsy]

Should we have corporal punishment for adults who commit crimes???

That's something to think about. Repeat offenders perhaps? Depending on the type of crime?

In addition to incarceration.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Charles Anthony,

you may grow up developing the instinct that the one with the more strength or power can physically control those who do not have the power.

This is an inherent learning, from the first time a kid squashes a bug. It is also the basis of 'rights theory'. It is up to the parents to teach the child where and when to use that power, and when not to.

I believe kids were not born violent.

I believe kids learn violence from their surroundings.

I agree, and am a believer in the theory of 'tabula rasa', with some exceptions. Kids also grow up with the notion of 'Gimme! Now!' and in the absence of discipline, they will couple what they learned (like the band named "Me First and the Gimme Gimmes") of immediate gratification and the power over life and death (like the bug) to find that it is in their hands.

HOW kids interpret the use of violence is the responsibility of their parents.

I totally agree.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Should we have corporal punishment for adults who commit crimes???

That's something to think about. Repeat offenders perhaps? Depending on the type of crime?

In addition to incarceration.

We used to. For sex offences.

Don.

[Melanie_]

When we punish a child, generally the idea is to let the child know that their behaviour was inappropriate; I think it is just as important to teach the appropriate behaviour in a given situation. Kids are learning all the time, and they really don't know all that is expected of them, so they will make mistakes; they also don't have great impulse control, so even when they know that they shouldn't do something, the lure of doing it can be powerful. A parent's job is to help them learn right from wrong, and to learn how to be in charge of their actions, so when they are on the C-train they know better than to be rude to people and they are able to act on that knowledge. Physical punishment might help them fear the consequences of behaving badly, but it doesn't really teach them to make good choices for the sake of good choices. Often I think spanking is more about relieving the parent's frustration or exerting power than it is about teaching the child good behaviour.

[Chakote]

I agree with all of you in the sense that there's too much oversensitive BS butting its nose into this issue.. As we evolve (someone mentioned baby boomers) we turn more and more ever few years into soft, disorder-diagnosing, employee-empowering, euphemism-using pussies, and not enough parents today know how to discipline their kids. There isn't much that bothers me more than seeing a parent taking their disruptive, misbehaving, and undisciplined kid to a psychologist for "ADD" or some other dumb mental disorder to convince themselves they aren't bad parents. As far as to what extent this kind of thing should be permitted, people have common sense (I'm making a generalization here), and need to apply it when they discipline their child. I'm not going to bother outlining how much I think is too much (you can all use your own common sense for that) but there is nothing wrong with slapping your kid across the butt with a spoon in response to a well-strung out temper tantrum.

And children don't learn violence from us; if the only way a human can learn violence is by observing another violent human being, we wouldn't have been able to get the violence bandwagon rolling in the first place. I don't think cats learn that they're supposed to catch mice because they watch other cats doing it. Who taught the first cat?