Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

[betsy]

Betsy - you keep using terms like " terrorists" and " inflict suffering " to dramatize the view youve painted for yourself of whats going on at the site. Using those words makes me feel like your trying to describe the situation like people are dying and being injured in Caledonia - Because people are occupying a peice of land? Blocking a road forcing people to drive around? im not thrilled with the racist actions of those groups and what theyre trying to do there, even with all their violent tendencies directed towards Native people I couldnt use those terms to describe them. But to clarify, the barricades are all down - people are staying on the site - so explain to me how they are doing anything to the town? or as you so colourfully put it " using an innocent as a whipping post "

On the matter of the Elders taking the matter to parliament - Have you been reading any of the posts on the forum? Im about to come full circle for you once again - Six Nations people have been trying for YEARS to have a government ear listen to them, the government has always side stepped the issue because they had no pressure to listen - the matter could be swept away because the public had no idea what was going on.

Now people are listening, and learning.... even with efforts to villify the protesters, most people see through it.

I was referring to the previous incidents, before the government bought the land and the barricades came down. It's about that time when things got really ugly, with that power thing being pulled down. I haven't been following the news lately, not even MDuffy....so I'm glad to hear that normalcy is back in Caledonia.

I was using the term "terrorism", because I saw it as such, although it may not be like the kind of terrorism we hear about in the news. It may be hard for you to accept it, but I am just being frank about it. I also likened it to extortion. It is this "trade-off" for the normalcy to be brought back to Caledonia. You give me this, and I give it back. You pay me this, and you'll get it back. It looked that same kind of principle behind it. It doesn't sound good I know...and it does paint a very dark picture.

But that is the picture the protest....not me...was showing to the rest of Canada. Hence I've said: it's hurting your cause.

As to why this matter is not resolved for this long....I have to admit ignorance to the intricacies of politics.

I don't know if your elders or chieftains are elected officials by the native people...if they are, then maybe elect somebody else until you find someone who can...and will move things and start the ball rolling. We know how politicians are.

It is easy to assume that the other party is the one who doesn't want to listen....but it is also possible that for some reason, somebody on your own side is not doing their job.

I have read an article about a Native woman activist (don't know her name) and she complained of the corruptions in the reserves, among other things. So with politics, anything is possible.

[Kindred]

Now people are listening, and learning.... even with efforts to villify the protesters, most people see through it

I doubt that is a person in Canada who hasnt heard about land claims, and anyone who went to school has studied Canadian History. That includes the history of the aboriginals.

I think that what you arent really understanding is that people wont accept having their lives disrupted, being cut off from their employment, having their homes burned or having access cut off to their homes and experiencing huge personal loss. It wont win you support.

People I know who used to support Land Claims dont any longer. They have had enough. Your methods are counter-productive.

I am upset over the continuous disregard of one Government after another for the plight of diabled workers in Canada, who IMO are entitled to compensation for accidents while they were working - does that give me the right to take my anger out on my neighbours and disrupt their lives and livelinhood? They arent responsible and I am willing to bet 80% of Canadians have no idea how low disabilitypensions are --

My frustration at the lack of awareness and action doesnt give me the right to break the law and hurt other people.

[betsy]

Enskat,

Yes the incident had gotten everyone looking in that direction of Canada. But as for listening and learning....that remains to be seen. And if they did listened, what have they actually heard and deduced from this situation? It may not be the kind of lesson you'd hoped they'd learn.

Years ago, during Mulroney time, I listened to and learned about a similar stand-off. Can't remember the name of the place or the details of the incident. But I still recall the pictures splashed on the front pages, images of scary-looking big men with kerchiefs covering part of their faces blocking another road or a bridge. I think it's another land claim issue....but am not sure. Sure I learned a thing or two about the Natives, but it came with a negative impression.

When I first heard of the Caledonia blockade....that picture of those scary-looking men was the first image that came to my mind. And as my posts reveal....lo and behold, I'm still quite ignorant about the history of all these disputes! I can't even recall the name of that stand-off place I was telling about, never mind the details that went with it. But I can still see the pictures in my head! Vividly.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here.

[betsy]

Enskat,

Btw, it just occurred to me that at some previous posts on this thread, the media is being accused of being "biased" with their reports and newsclips.

But if the purpose of this protest is to gain attention, of course they'd need the media!

And what you call "villification of the protest by some posters"...was not just something that sprung up from thin air. It's sprouted up from the "seed of learning", after listening to the media.

So you see, it's not working the way you hope it would.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Oh - myself and others understand fully.

You gobble up what the media spoon feeds you, and you want more. Unfortunately, what they are feeding you is poison. I really have no idea about what media you are exposed to out west, but from your comments it just doesnt jive with what ive witnessed with my own eyes. and more through video. I live 20 minutes from Caledonia, and unlike the majority of people expressing opinions on the forum - ive been there and have seen some of what the protesters have to deal with. And of course even the local media doesnt cover both sides, so i can only imagine the version of events people are reading farther away. Take the accounting of events provided from your western standard, then read a Native news source like Turtle Island. I can hear you already asking why you should trust a Native source over your beloved western standard - and hey you dont have to. But considering both sides will put you a lot closer to the truth.

I am currently reading a book entitled " Iroquois Land Claims " find a copy - it may help you to understand what is involved in these situations - the ISBN is 0-8156-0222-7

also " One Dead Indian " about events surrounding Ipperwash ISBN 0-7710-3047-9

First nations people are beginning to Unite, Organise and Protest. Like everyone else they want a timely resolution to these problems.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

If you are interested with the " seed of learning " as you put it - youll need a true source to learn from - without it an inaccurate accounting of the facts will continue to be circulated. Since peoples very important " first impressions " are being provided by one sided reporting, the real story just isnt getting out. The public is much more comfortable believing the first thing they hear or read. They imprint the sensational images seen on the front page of these " scary guys " and thats all they seem to see from that point on.

Enskat,

Btw, it just occurred to me that at some previous posts on this thread, the media is being accused of being "biased" with their reports and newsclips.

But if the purpose of this protest is to gain attention, of course they'd need the media!

And what you call "villification of the protest by some posters"...was not just something that sprung up from thin air. It's sprouted up from the "seed of learning", after listening to the media.

So you see, it's not working the way you hope it would.

[betsy]

Take the accounting of events provided from your western standard, then read a Native news source like Turtle Island. I can hear you already asking why you should trust a Native source over your beloved western standard - and hey you dont have to. But considering both sides will put you a lot closer to the truth.

This is in reference to post #119 on page 8 of this thread:

The Western Standard had quoted one your own people (a legal adviser to the chiefs by the name of Switlo).

I doubt she'd just sit by if they'd mis-quoted her.

One of the posters here claimed....and seemed to verify the Western Standard article. That, "SUPPORT WAS CALLED IN."

And I've been asking the question that no one probably read, hence received no reply at all. I'll ask it again: Support was called in....for what?

Why was support needed at all if apparently the elders were showing goodwill gestures by removing the blockades? That goodwill gesture would've undoubtedly diffused any further tensions!

The Western Standard had maintained that it was only when this support was called in that violence erupted!

The peaceful intention by the elders of this protest was dis-regarded and violated, not by the media....but by the "reinforcement" that came in and those who called for those reinforcements!

[betsy]

If you are interested with the " seed of learning " as you put it - youll need a true source to learn from - without it an inaccurate accounting of the facts will continue to be circulated.

Enskat,

How many people who read the news actually run to the library...or find other resources to dig up the roots of problems...researching...with the intention to really do their own investigative reading? Not unless one is writing a book perhaps.

I am an ordinary folk. Just like millions of other ordinary folks, most of which do not even have any interest in joining political forums, much more digging up history and politics.

The point I'm trying to make is that: accurate or not, people get information and make their own deductions, assumptions, judgments and conclusion through the media. A lot of media sources were talking of and showing the same clips of violence.

What would make an ordinary joe think that what he's seeing on tv and reading in the papers are trumped up by the media to make the Natives look bad? It sounds like a conspiracy theory!

[Temagami Scourge]

Kindred re: post #235

It is unlikely that there are a lot of native burial sites that should impede development in any areas outside the ones mentioned.

Why, because you cited examples from widely divergent areas and decided to apply them to Caledonia? Did you think that the Six nations alreadt adhered to the Christian tradition by time they moved onto the Haldimand tract in the 1700's, and that they buried their people in family plots like their pioneer neighbours did?

Did you also think that some of those pioneers removed headstones and the like to hide native claims to the land in the last couple of hundred years?

No...I doubt it. In typical Canadian fashion, you assume that the burial rites of some Native Nations are somehow applicable to every Native nation across Canada?

Usuing your rationale for First Nations, I guess I can say that you celebrate le Bon fete with the rest of caucasian Quesbec because of your shared European heritage.

[Temagami Scourge]

Kindred re: post #237

"

So if you are doing so well and everyone is riding on your coat tails then whats your bitch

?"

Here..I'll explain it in the most simplistic terms I know: I live off-reserve in Ontario, so I am a taxpayer. I live in what is called a "have" province, in that my province kicks in untold billions of dollars into the federal coffers, so that the federal government can take my money and send it to the "have not" provinces like yours- British Columbia. This being fact, you get on here and gripe about your tax dollars supporting "lazy" Indians, when this Indian (me) has to pay his tax dollars to bankroll your province and ensure the upkeep of the services you enjoy.

Hence the irony of it all...that a whiny belly-acher like you has to be supported by one of the lazy Indians you so loath.

some may think it amusing, but I think it insulting.

Now, having taken the time to teach you this little lesson in basic Canadian civics, the least you can do is offer me thanks for the tax money I spend to keep you driving around on good roads, or support your health care, or whatever it is that your province needs my money for.

I work for everything I have, I never stood around whining and crying that the Government owes me a free ride.

Oh...you work ...well. let's get out an award, or are you trying to tell me that I don't because of my race? I like how people like you love to say that, when here in Toronto, almost every homeless person sacked out on the street is Caucasian. How 'bout we trade Kindred? I'll send you a bunch of homeless Caucasians, and you can send me some homeless Natives so we can feel at home?

Where is that "Native Pride" we hear so much about

?

Well, read some of the posts here by my native brother's and sister's and you can feel the pride emanating from their beliefs and experiences. Of course, you call it "terrorism", but we've learned that whenever we dare stand up for ourselves, our non-Native neighbours can't handle it. They prefer that we remain in our place, but that isn't our style...

If you are suggesting I am taking a free ride on the tax payers or receiving any kind of Government Assistance you are jumping to some pretty stupid assumptions. Your post is so irrational and garbled its hard to understand.

I already explained it earlier in basic english in the hope that you'll understand. If you need flash cards, just write and I'll try to accomodate you. I apologize that you never learned proper comprehension, but I blame that on the school system that taught you, not on you yourself.

Maybe if you just dropped all the personal insults and stupid comments based on ... nothing .. it would make more sense ?

Why...you haven't?

As a friend of mine once explained it to me "you have to understand that Natives arent capable of looking after themselves so we have to look after them -". Is that what you want the world to believe? I dont believe it, I know some pretty capable indians. Len Marchand was one.

It appears that you are the one with the problem with believing that you need to care for the Natives. I'm the one with the problem that my tax dollars goes to support your province through transfer payments, and you don't have the ability to comprehend that. I also know a good white person. His name is Bob. I know another one whose name is Jim, and a decent black lady named Joan.

don't give us this "I know Indians" because you know shit about Caledonia, whereas I actually go there and bother to talk to people in the firsthand. You can stick to crying about fish harvesting or something you may have some knowledge on.

I stated my case, I am tired of living in an arpatheid society where one class, based on race, is priviliged.

Me too. That's why I'm standing up for my rights and it's driving the priviledged Caucasians batty for not just staying in my place.

I am tired of my tax dollars supporting able bodied people who choose not to work.

Of course...because we all know that Natives don't work...not even Len Marchand, whoever he is...

As one poster said 10 billion dollars a year for aboriginal affairs and programs - thats a helluva drain on tax payers. On a per capita basis its horrendous.

Hey enskat, gc and NC...don't you notice how people like kindred make this point, and yet forget to follow it through to its logical conclusion that the doctors, pharmacists, pharmaceutical companies, boards of education, lumber suppliers and all the other non-Native people and businesses who sell Health, Housing and Education services to Native people see the majority of the money, whereas the natives actually don't? How come some Canadians don't understand basic economics?

The difference between white people living in shacks with broken windows is they dont expect the Government to build a new house for them, if they want a new house they have to go to work and make the money to buy one. They dont expect the tax payers to buy one for them.

Wow...are you sure you even know white people? The poor whites and their activist friends that protest at the provincial parliament buildings here in Toronto certainly believe that they are owed housing. I don't think their intrinsic "whiteness" automatically means otherwise, but this comment certainly makes me wonder about your intellectual capabilities. Earlier, you said that we are all equal, and now you are telling me that white people naturally think of supporting themselves while Natives don't.

hummm? equal, eh?

How many natives were in residentail schools in relation to those who are living on assistance and demanding more and more?

Ok...maybe I'm just dense, but does anyone else not understand this question? Can these be two separate thoughts spliced together by nothing in particular? However, I do see the attempt at humour by referring to residential schools at residentail, considering all the butt rape that the priests and reverends committed on the native children in those schools.

If they signed the Treaties they can now claim they didnt and want their land back ...

Actually, the problem is more that the Natives did sign agreements, like the Haldimand Tract. Having a legal basis for a defined plot of land is creating all kinds of issues for the province and the Feds. The unfortunate point is that only now are rank and file Canadians are aware that the land on six miles on either side of the Grand is under question.

Natives didnt spring from the dirt in Canda, they migrated here just as everyone else did.

Europeans didn't spring from the dirt in europe, and yet we acknowledge Europe as their homeland. I guess we should just all go back to Africa....

If you want to be called Canadian then act like one ...

This is funny...someone who has exhibited no knowledge of Canadian law, nor of Canada's legal relationship with Natives is trying to say that someone else is "not" Canadian!? Well, if being Canadian means living in utter ignorance, then you certainly have a lock on being Canadian, Kindred. I don't think I could "un-learn" enough to get down to your level.

[Temagami Scourge]

Until the matter is settled, like it or not, the simple fact is as it is.

Some may have been given special PRIVILEGES (or certain rights that may have been bestowed), but until the court...or whoever it is or what body it is that decides how this dispute is going to end...no wishful thinking or spin, nor aggressive posturing and childish tantrums claiming MINE! will change the present or current rightful scenario.

ALL CANADIANS have all the EQUAL rights to be in Canada, partaking of all rights and privileges granted to all citizens, and EQUALLY obligated to uphold and be governed by the laws and government of this country.

Canada belongs to ALL CANADIANS .........of the past, present and the future.

Betsy: I can't understand it. you've been coming to this thread for how long and you still have no clue about the Indian Act. How can you ignore specific Canadian legislation that ensure that status Indians do not get the same treatment as "all" Canadians?

Give up on this "equality" crap. There is no equality with this Act, so take some time to learn Canadian history, please. It's starting to become embarassing because you are one of the better writers on these threads, but you can't comprehend legal fact.

On second thought, you seem to be in good company here...

[Temagami Scourge]

Kindred:

I must say I object to people "quoting" comments I never made - there have been several such "quotes" from Temagami Scourge. The other posters read his quotes and respond to them - perhaps if posts were being read in their entirity and then addressed it would be a more equitable discourse.

Who wants to discourse with someone who already feels that Natives are inherently lazy, and whites are inherently industrious? We can't convince you of anything because you've already been programmed...all that is left is to point our your errors in assumption about Native people.

I have somehow become someone living on Govt assistance, then complaining about native assistance, someone who claimed there are no natives taking advantage of post secondard education, someone who said I hate all natives based on the colour of their skin and advocate shooting all of them - and I dont know what else ... frankly the posts tend to be hard to follow when they become an insulting rant ...all things posted by Temagami Scourge, and things he claims I have said.

No...let me clarify. You are not living on government assistance, but your province is. My taxes pay for your provinces' upkeep, because your taxes can't. Hence, I pay indirectly for your livelihood. You can work all you want, but I'm still bankrolling your services. You can move here to Ontario, if that would make you feel better, but we have lots of people from all over the world living here, so you might feel better living in alberta. It, too, is a "have" province, and it would be much more "monochromatic" for your tastes.

In fact what I have said is I am fed up with living in an arpatheird society and having people disrupt and destroy others lives, that natives in Caledonia dont have their livelihood threatened, they havent suffered huge economical impacts and disruption to their lives. As others have said THIS IS THE ISSUE.

Ooops.....looks like another lost soul has been taken in by the greqt media machine. I guess word hasn't made it as far as B.C. yet that the boycott Six Nations people have put on racist Caledonia is affecting business more than the Caledonians expected. Six Nations folks aren't using the banks, or going to Zehr's. or going to Canadian Tire and dozens of other businesses in town anymore...They don't like being accosted because of their skin colour, and I can't blame them.

..and yet the mainstream media talks of the terrible suffering Caledonians are going through! Oh...how terrible it is for those drunken Caledonians to spend all hours of the night throwing rocks, shooting fireworks and hurling insults at Natives....I can imagine the lack of sleep those poor, poor Caledonians face, being busy at all hours of the night.

Stop taking your frustrations out on innocent people. You are losing support and sympathy when you promise "mayhem" in Canada, something you, Temagami Scourge, did say you support - the people's who's lives your detroy will NOT be lobbying their pols to settle these claims, in fact just the opposite.

the folks at Six Nations were doing nothing other than inconveniencing some builders, and their staff, at Douglas Creek. Then the OPP struck first and tried to muscle the Natives out, so the native expanded their blockade by about 200 yards to incorporate Hwy. 6. since then, Caledonians have been whining and, quite frankly, lying about the torture they endure. I've spent enough time in the area to know this is bullshit, as have many Caledoanians who raise their eyebrows at their neighbours and wonder what "harm" has come to them. When the natives took off the blockade on Hwy. 6, it was the bad caledonians who decided to continue their blockade, and started beating on Natives walking to Tim Horton's.

...and yet it's Caledonia that suffers this unbearable Calvary.....oh...boohoo....

I also said you are creating and promoting racism and this agenda will escelate into a race war if it isnt stopped. Pretty simple things to understand really.

somehow Kindred, I get the impression that this is exactly what you want. I'd rather see Canada abide by its own laws, but the Crown rarely does it, with little complaint from Canadians in general.

The natives wont back down and neither will the non-natives, the difference is we arent going into your homes and reserves and creating mayhem and threatening your safety and day to day lives.

I haven't seen nor heard of anyone from Six Nations entering a Caledonian home, unless it's their own (Yes Kindred, there are people from Six Nations who own homes in Caledonia and get threatened by their neighbours for being Indian...but I see you don't know nor care for those people...). Can we see some proof of this accusation?

The natives wont back down and neither will the non-natives, the difference is we arent going into your homes and reserves and creating mayhem and threatening your safety and day to day lives.

Hostage-taking? What hostages...where? Even at the height of the protest, you could get all over Caledonia, and I don't recall the Natives grabbing anyone and making them a hostage, so would you mind giving us the names of these hostages?

[Temagami Scourge]

Take the accounting of events provided from your western standard, then read a Native news source like Turtle Island. I can hear you already asking why you should trust a Native source over your beloved western standard - and hey you dont have to. But considering both sides will put you a lot closer to the truth.

This is in reference to post #119 on page 8 of this thread:

The Western Standard had quoted one your own people (a legal adviser to the chiefs by the name of Switlo).

I doubt she'd just sit by if they'd mis-quoted her.

One of the posters here claimed....and seemed to verify the Western Standard article. That, "SUPPORT WAS CALLED IN."

And I've been asking the question that no one probably read, hence received no reply at all. I'll ask it again: Support was called in....for what?

Why was support needed at all if apparently the elders were showing goodwill gestures by removing the blockades? That goodwill gesture would've undoubtedly diffused any further tensions!

The Western Standard had maintained that it was only when this support was called in that violence erupted!

The peaceful intention by the elders of this protest was dis-regarded and violated, not by the media....but by the "reinforcement" that came in and those who called for those reinforcements!

Heavens to Betsy:

I think you are confusing two separate events here Betsy. The "support called in" is in relation to the April OPP raid on the protestors, who were overwhelmed by the police, but got radio calls to friends and family on the reserve, who then rushed down to the protest and moved the OPP back off the site.

The Elders called for removing the Hwy. 6 roadblock as a show of good faith in late May, which lasted mere moments because the racist, drunken caledonians set up a blockade and began beating Natives in their cars. this precipitated the fight that we saw on T.V. and the setting up of the blockade again. It also was the moment when the Caledonians changed their tune about the OPP, because they were upset that the OPP block was facing the Caledonian faction and not the Native faction. The reason the OPP were facing the Caledonians is because even they recognized that the Caledonians STARTED IT!

Therefore, it appears quite clear that whatever media sources you review are woefully inaccurate, as everything you've stated is, in essence, incorrect in fact.

I hope this helps clarify things. But then again, you also refused to believe Enskat's video of drunken Caledonian caucasians throwing rocks and making insults at Native people, so it is obvious that the truth matters little in your world.

I understand. that is the canadian way...

[Canuck E Stan]

The Elders called for removing the Hwy. 6 roadblock as a show of good faith in late May, which lasted mere moments because the racist, drunken caledonians set up a blockade and began beating Natives in their cars. this precipitated the fight that we saw on T.V. and the setting up of the blockade again. It also was the moment when the Caledonians changed their tune about the OPP, because they were upset that the OPP block was facing the Caledonian faction and not the Native faction. The reason the OPP were facing the Caledonians is because even they recognized that the Caledonians STARTED IT!

Therefore, it appears quite clear that whatever media sources you review are woefully inaccurate, as everything you've stated is, in essence, incorrect in fact.

I hope this helps clarify things. But then again, you also refused to believe Enskat's video of drunken Caledonian caucasians throwing rocks and making insults at Native people, so it is obvious that the truth matters little in your world.

I understand. that is the canadian way...

Of course this didn't happen.......just a BC visitor and six others ........all made up by the media.......in Caledonia

B.C. woman accused in Caledonia violence arrested

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

I guess the only people who will conduct their own research are those interested in the TRUTH.

So all these " ordinary folks " like yourself just cant be bothered to investigate the other sides viewpoint.

I think this is partly because you just cant be bothered to click any of a number of links provided here and actuall read and digest whats being said. Secondly, as i said previously - its just so damn easy to read an article in your rag then post on the forum with absolutely no understanding of any of the background surrounding the land claim issue. On this forum alone you have been provided resources to educate yourself ( only a click away ), but you have chosen not too in favour of disseminating what youve read in the standard as truth, without so much as an independant thought that all the reports in the media regarding the protest site are from the Caledonia protesters point of view. Weird huh? even though youve been provided with the means to develop a fair understanding, you instead choose to dramatize those aspects of the media coverage which are obviously blown out of proportion.

What would make an ordinary joe think that what he's seeing on tv and reading in the papers are trumped up by the media to make the Natives look bad? It sounds like a conspiracy theory!

What should make you think something is amiss is the fact that non-native media has totally centred on the comments from some of the Caledonia residents. The fact that you took in all this media info and the issue of the opposing viewpoint never even entered your mind is curious to say the least. Wouldnt be the first time the media would be guilty of lies of omission.

Read up on the Indian Act - some parts of that were a conspiracy....

http://www.ammsa.com/classroom/CLASS4indianact.html

click - click - clicky - You only risk being educated

[Temagami Scourge]

The Elders called for removing the Hwy. 6 roadblock as a show of good faith in late May, which lasted mere moments because the racist, drunken caledonians set up a blockade and began beating Natives in their cars. this precipitated the fight that we saw on T.V. and the setting up of the blockade again. It also was the moment when the Caledonians changed their tune about the OPP, because they were upset that the OPP block was facing the Caledonian faction and not the Native faction. The reason the OPP were facing the Caledonians is because even they recognized that the Caledonians STARTED IT!

Therefore, it appears quite clear that whatever media sources you review are woefully inaccurate, as everything you've stated is, in essence, incorrect in fact.

I hope this helps clarify things. But then again, you also refused to believe Enskat's video of drunken Caledonian caucasians throwing rocks and making insults at Native people, so it is obvious that the truth matters little in your world.

I understand. that is the canadian way...

Of course this didn't happen.......just a BC visitor and six others ........all made up by the media.......in Caledonia

B.C. woman accused in Caledonia violence arrested

Actually Canuck, this a third separate event in the last hundred days, but if you want to keep on mixing all these events into the same day, then feel free to do so...that hasn't stopped others here from doing the same.

go nuts.

[Kindred]

Oh...you work ...well. let's get out an award, or are you trying to tell me that I don't because of my race? I like how people like you love to say that, when here in Toronto, almost every homeless person sacked out on the street is Caucasian. How 'bout we trade Kindred? I'll send you a bunch of homeless Caucasians, and you can send me some homeless Natives so we can feel at home?

Your content shows a woeful lack of knowledge, too many irrelevant and ridiculous comments to even respond to.

No one said you didnt work, you were the one who suggested I didnt. This is becoming infantile and childish with the amount of irrelevant insults and comments being posted against people who dont agree with you.

I did not say natives were lazy, I said there are too many with an over inflated sense of entitlement. You are the one hurling race insults. Just you.

If you want to gain support for your "cause" you sure are going about it the wrong way. In more ways than one. But thats good, because your attitude and comments ultimately support my side ,

Lying, making up crap and insulting people has this strange way of getting people pissed off so they say "yah right, over my dead body". YOU are the kind of person who is doing more harm than good to your cause. Thank you for adding fuel to "my" side.

I feel from reading the posts that you have been responded to with respect and courteously from all the posters who disagree with the violence and hostage taking tactics of any Land Claim Actvists. Pity that doesnt work both ways. I have had to use a great deal of restraint myself when you are start with the insults and racial slurs, and your lack of knowledge becomes to apparent in your posts.

Yes I had my mind made up when I joined this thread and now, thanks to you it is set in stone. No way in hell if I have anything to say about it, and I do have a vote if it goes to referendum. I also have family members and friends who vote

When Len Marchand arrived in Ottawa in June 1968 as Canada's first aboriginal MP, he had just beaten the indomitable Davie Fulton in the British Columbia riding of Kamloops-Cariboo. In his first speech to the House of Commons, he spoke about the frustrations and the despair of our First Nations. He also spoke about hope - hope for a proud people which had lost belief in themselves. He said that his people must begin to understand that they could become whatever they wished, and that they could aspire to become whatever they were capable of becoming.

. 1st Session, 36th Parliament,

Volume 137, Issue 47

Thursday, March 19, 1998

The first native MP in Canada and you dont know who he is, you really know your stuff dont you?

You are dreaming if you think Ontario is carrying the rest of Canada. Alberta pays the most in Equilization payments, not Ontario.

[Argus]

Oh - myself and others understand fully.

You gobble up what the media spoon feeds you, and you want more. Unfortunately, what they are feeding you is poison.

Because we all know how vicious, hateful and racist the mainstream media is and how hostile they are towards aborigines and other minorities.

Right?

[Argus]

I guess the only people who will conduct their own research are those interested in the TRUTH.

So all these " ordinary folks " like yourself just cant be bothered to investigate the other sides viewpoint.

I think this is partly because you just cant be bothered to click any of a number of links provided here and actuall read and digest whats being said.t he's seeing on tv and reading in the papers are trumped up by the media to make the Natives look bad? It sounds like a conspiracy theory!

The links you post are invariably biased. They can't be relied on for any kind of accuracy. As for the mainstream media, it has long been known to be softheaded and softhearted over matters like native and minority rights. The idea they are somehow conspiring to make the natives look bad is ludicrous. If the media is biased it will be towards the natives, not against them.

[Canuck E Stan]

I guess the only people who will conduct their own research are those interested in the TRUTH.

So all these " ordinary folks " like yourself just cant be bothered to investigate the other sides viewpoint.

I think this is partly because you just cant be bothered to click any of a number of links provided here and actuall read and digest whats being said. Secondly, as i said previously - its just so damn easy to read an article in your rag then post on the forum with absolutely no understanding of any of the background surrounding the land claim issue. On this forum alone you have been provided resources to educate yourself ( only a click away ), but you have chosen not too in favour of disseminating what youve read in the standard as truth, without so much as an independant thought that all the reports in the media regarding the protest site are from the Caledonia protesters point of view. Weird huh? even though youve been provided with the means to develop a fair understanding, you instead choose to dramatize those aspects of the media coverage which are obviously blown out of proportion.

What would make an ordinary joe think that what he's seeing on tv and reading in the papers are trumped up by the media to make the Natives look bad? It sounds like a conspiracy theory!

What should make you think something is amiss is the fact that non-native media has totally centred on the comments from some of the Caledonia residents. The fact that you took in all this media info and the issue of the opposing viewpoint never even entered your mind is curious to say the least. Wouldnt be the first time the media would be guilty of lies of omission.

Read up on the Indian Act - some parts of that were a conspiracy....

http://www.ammsa.com/classroom/CLASS4indianact.html

click - click - clicky - You only risk being educated

Maybe the rag reading should be done on both sides of the coin.....even reading your own rag....again, and try to see the message beyond the words written.

The Indian Act - Serious Internal Error: Discontinue use

But for the 600-odd band councils in Canada, it's the alpha and omega of day-to-day life

In many First Nation communities there is a serious split between those who have embraced the Indian Act system and those who have not. That is a very painful division that does great harm to these communities.

The traditional people call the band council supporters sell-outs and traitors. The band council supporters are outraged by such serious attacks. They are frozen between where they'd like to be (serving their people with honor in the traditional way as they believe their pre-contact leaders did) and where they feel they must be (functioning in a modern world in the best possible way.)

The average reserve community has a population of a few hundred people. The band council performs a similar function to that of a municipal government for those people but there are crucial differences between the two political systems.

In most cases, the Aboriginal leaders of the time saw themselves to be representing separate nations; they were allies, not subjects, of the Crown.

The philisophical problems of the Indian Act are only the beginning of the many problems facing Aboriginal governments. A band council or tribal council with an annual budget of $40 to 50 million dollars (Saskatchewan's Meadow Lake Tribal Council and Ontario's Six Nations are both in that range) has a complex job to do as it goes about providing services for its membership. It's a job that is on the same scale as that faced by a good-sized town council.

But unlike in a municipal government's budget, there is no money in the Indian Affairs budget for a full-time planner or legal department or other professional supports. As the population in First Nations grows (and the Aboriginal population is growing at a faster rate than the overall population) the pressures on band councils will grow accordingly.

Robert Manuel, a former chief of British Columbia's Neskonlith band who ran unsuccessfully for national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, has seen the pressure and complexity of the job of chief or councillor grow during his quarter-century in politics. He believes the Assembly of First Nations must become a counter-bureaucracy that can handle the complex political manouvering that is required so bands can hold their own when faced with government policies that are contrary to the best interests of band members. That's only because there is no money for each band council government to set up their own collection of skilled help.

So as I see it,600 band councils each have a population of a few hundred to take care of with a budget of $40 to $50 million dollars a year.

The natives have so much in-fighting between themselves and the other bands that without solidarity between everyone, nothing gets accomplished to improve the lives of all natives.

Aboriginals expect to buy full time planners and other professional support to solve their problems

And this has been going on for decades and decades.

Is the problem the damn Indian act, or is the fact fact that natives don't have the leadership to fix their own internal problems to get out of the mess that thas been created for themselves.

I've asked this question before,where are the native leaders?

Where are your spiritual leaders?

Where are your legal leaders,your medical leaders,your engineers,capenters,anyone who feels so strong they will work for the betterment of all in these communities.

Six Hundred band councils means 600 hundred communities of a coulple of hundred people.

Life hasn't changed in these communities for decades, and why because natives lack the leadership that will promote the desire and sacrifice to chan

Getting money and land rights are not the natives biggest issues.

Leadership is.

If you're not part of the solution,you're part of the problem.

[betsy]

But then again, you also refused to believe Enskat's video of drunken Caledonian caucasians throwing rocks and making insults at Native people, so it is obvious that the truth matters little in your world.

Well, as somebody accused the media of "altering" and editing videos....the same thing is possible for any videos.

Besides, I've given my opinions regarding those insults and racial slurs. They're part of the whole shebang!

As for being ignorant with legalities...yes I am. Oh silly, don't be embarrassed for me. I'm not! Why should I?

I would be embarrassed I think if I find myself incapable of giving my views and discussing without being abrasive and insulting.....since slipping down is quite easy and mustering one's composure (especially in this highly-charged topic) is quite a challenge, don't you think so?

I've always maintained in this thread that my concern was for the unlawful disruption of Caledonia. It's never been about the legality of your land dispute....but somehow, it's always being brought up, and I always seemed to find myself sucked in.

My rant about "equality for all" was a response when what's-his-name ranted about Canadians paying tax to the wrong people, that Caledonians should've not built their homes there etc..,

Enskat,

Yes, the media can be guilty of omission at times...but to have them all (from the right to the left-leaning outlets), showing and reporting practically the same things give more credibility to the story.

If it's any consolation, I've always thought that the protesters were vicious right from the start....until the Western Standard stated about the peaceful intention of the elders, and that it only got really ugly when those imported supporters from Toronto came.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

A positive step forward dont you think?

This clip from an article that pretty much sums up how a lot of people feel on both sides of this debate

from Turtle Island News.

June 21, 2006

Caledonia residents are right, land claims need to be

settled now

DOUGLAS CREEK LANDS, SIX NATIONS- Six Nations people engaged in a peaceful reclamation of lands they

have been alienated from for almost 200 years wish to express their gratitude, and agreement with Caledonia residents, protesting in Toronto today, that it is time for the federal and provincial governments to begin serious negotiations on returning the Douglas Creek lands to Six Nations. An estimated 60 Caledonia residents made their way to Toronto, on Aboriginal Solidarity Day, Wednesday, to vent months of tension and frustrations. Six Nations residents have been waiting more than 200 years for a resolution to its land issues. Spokeswoman, Janie Jamieson said “I would like to thank the Caledonia Citizens’ Alliance for taking a step towards uniting, with Six Nations, to push the government to resolve land claims. It is even more significant today, because they took our fight to the Premier (Dalton McGuinty) on Aboriginal Solidarity Day.” Spokeswoman Hazel Hill commented today, “we have been trying for 113 days to get the governments to understand this issue is about the land, not the Caledonia people. We are pleased to see the Caledonia Citizens’ Alliance agrees with us, that government needs to move on this, today.” She added, “In the past 113 days our people have been subjected to racism, rock throwing, have had beer bottles thrown at them during the Caledonia Friday night riots, and been subjected to mobs of angry Caledonia people who have been left frustrated by the Ontario and federal government’s inability to provide them with information or an explanation for their inactions.” She said that government inertia has caused physical injuries and psychological damage to Six Nations people.”Our people have suffered from injuries and hate crimes. Our elderly were swarmed and attacked by mobs of Caledonia people, but no one from Caledonia has been charged. KKK material has been circulated in our mailboxes.” Hill said there is no validity to claims that Six Nations residents have engaged in fear tactics or threats. “Our people have stood silent while we have been subjected to day after day, week after week of racism and hate crimes because we have reclaimed land that is ours.” She said “the residents of Caledonia are being“caught in the middle of a political fight between our people and the federal and provincial governments who refuse to move on returning our lands.” Hill said she agrees with Caledonia residents that the “rule of Canadian law has failed to force its own people to abide by their own laws. Our people are being arrested and charged for incidents, all of which, have been sparked by non-Six Nations people who are frustrated by their own government. We agree with Caledonia residents. It’s

time to move on this land issue now.” She said Six Nations people are at risk daily. “We are constantly

finding ourselves in a situation where we have to defend ourselves from Caledonia shutting down the

roads, swarming our elderly, abusing our youth and racist hate crimes.” The Ontario government has

pumped more than $1.5 million into Caledonia businesses, millions into policing and another over $45 million to buy out the developer of Douglas Creek Estates but still has not dealt fairly with Six Nations over its land.

Six Nations people have continued to press the federal and provincial crowns for:

- a moratorium on development on the Douglas Creek lands

- the decriminalization of the political activities of Six Nations people in defending their lands

- the safety of people who will continue a peaceful presence on the Douglas Creek lands

- an educational campaign for Ontario residents, including the citizens of Caledonia.

“This has never been about the Caledonia residents. This is about Six Nations’ land rights and the long

outstanding accounting of Six Nations trust funds that were under the trust of the federal crown but have

disappeared over the years. We hope Caledonia residents will continue to join with us in pushing the

federal and provincial crowns to resolve these matters for their sake, and ours,” said Hill. Caledonia residents are welcome to visit the Douglas Creek lands information booth. Six Nations people

maintain the Douglas Creek lands, as part of the lands under the 1784 Haldimand Proclamation have never

been surrendered and continue to work towards a peaceful resolution.

[Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe]

Then show me the coverage of the flip side of this situation in mainstream media. Are you actually implying that the media has " been soft " towards the Native point of view in this crisis? If so where is it?

Actually Arg-ass, the Native media isnt afraid to tell both sides, which you would know if you actually read any of the articles i posted. As for the links I post on the historical facts in regards to land claims, you would be correct in saying they support the Native viewpoint. Although i would hardly call a historically significant document biased - unless were speaking of The Indian act.

Has anyone read that yet?

I guess the only people who will conduct their own research are those interested in the TRUTH.

So all these " ordinary folks " like yourself just cant be bothered to investigate the other sides viewpoint.

I think this is partly because you just cant be bothered to click any of a number of links provided here and actuall read and digest whats being said.t he's seeing on tv and reading in the papers are trumped up by the media to make the Natives look bad? It sounds like a conspiracy theory!

The links you post are invariably biased. They can't be relied on for any kind of accuracy. As for the mainstream media, it has long been known to be softheaded and softhearted over matters like native and minority rights. The idea they are somehow conspiring to make the natives look bad is ludicrous. If the media is biased it will be towards the natives, not against them.

[Kindred]

Now that is unbiased reporting, a perfect example qll right, psychological trauman, gee you had to know that would once more rear its ugly head didnt you?

[betsy]

But how can this article by Turtle News be considered as telling BOTH sides?

Although your elders admitted this has never been about Caledonia, the fact remains that Caledonia was unfairly victimized in this issue. Nowhere did the article tell the sides of CALEDONIANS WHO WERE AFFECTED by the blockades and the ensuing violence that followed.

Just because it mentioned about the 6o or so Caledonians who showed support for the protest....does not mean both sides of the coin were represented.

Where's the side of people like our fellow-poster Sahara? Who lost the contents of her freezers?

Why on earth would we care about a few dollars' worth of food? I surely wouldn't want to tell that to a financially struggling couple or single parents or elderly trying to stretch their cents to put food on the table!

“In the past 113 days our people have been subjected to racism, rock throwing, have had beer bottles thrown at them during the Caledonia Friday night riots, and been subjected to mobs of angry Caledonia people who have been left frustrated by the Ontario and federal government’s inability to provide them with information or an explanation for their inactions.” She said that government suffered from injuries and hate crimes. Our elderly were swarmed and attacked by mobs of Caledonia people, but no one from Caledonia has been charged. KKK material has been circulated in our mailboxes.”

As to why the Caledonians resorted to these alleged responses, all this segment did was point the blame on to the government! Nowhere did this article placed any acknowledgement that yes, the government's inaction may've been PARTLY the reason why all things fell apart....but that this wouldn't have happened at all if the protest was done somewhere (where no innocents will feel compelled to raise more than their voices back at what they see as the direct cause of their plight), and/or if the protest was legal and lawful in the first place.

"Hill said she agrees with Caledonia residents that the “rule of Canadian law has failed to force its own people to abide by their own laws. Our people are being arrested and charged for incidents, all of which, have been sparked by non-Six Nations people who are frustrated by their own government."

ALL of which have been sparked by non-natives? Somehow I find that very hard to believe.

True, the residents may've been frustrated by the government's inaction.....but more so, I bet they're angry at the ones who are directly causing this misery for them (regarding some injustice being claimed)...to which they (Caledonia) have nothing to do with, other than be conveniently used as a tactical pawn to force the government to resolve the problem.

At least the supposedly red-neck Western Standard had interveiwed and given one of your own people some space and a chance to speak out and give the elders' side of the story. And they picked out someone with authority and knowledge to speak about these matters. She is a legal adviser of the elders, for crying out loud!

And guess what, she did not deny about the reinforcements.

In fact, she corroborated the story of the Western Standard (and it only shows that the magazine was not making any empty allegations)....and made it clear that the violence was never the intention of the elders. That it was instigated by some radicals within your group.

But Turtle Island News? Nowhere did it mention anything about the toppled power line...or the 300 reinforcements on that day. Not a hint of any wrong doing from ANY NATIVES. EVERY NATIVE was squeaky clean of any wrong-doing...that's what's this Turtle News is saying!

Does that not sound so strange to you? When in fact, if I'm not mistaken....in one of your post (or somebody else's at least)...it was pointed out that the vandals were castigated or were warned beforehand by the elders (therefore I'm assuming these vandals are Indians)!

So what is this contradiction between that statement and the statement of Turtle News?

If this is the best sample of your source of information....then the Western Standard wins hands down as far as objectivity and credibility is concerned....and undoubtedly proving they follow responsible journalistic rules. And to think that the Western Standard has the reputation of being red-neck!

Sorry Enskat, but this is not really objective news. This article is more of a PRESS RELEASE.

Others may even see it as nothing more than a rallying or "propaganda" rag.