Caledonia problem didnt arise overnight

Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe · June 26, 2006

But how can this article by Turtle News be considered as telling BOTH sides?
and..

Just because it mentioned about the 6o or so Caledonians who showed support for the protest....does not mean both sides of the coin were represented.

The article clearly outlines that at least some of the community are being proactive in a positive way, they do not support the actions of the racists in town. These racists, the same people who have the ear of the local media ( and starred in that video i posted ), that media in turn passes that misguided info onto your mag the standard and in turn, onto you. The line of misinformation is obvious.

... unfairly victimized in this issue.
... financially struggling couple or single parents or elderly trying to stretch their cents to put food on the table

... ensuing violence that followed

... of CALEDONIANS WHO WERE AFFECTED by the blockades

Being victimized is something Native people know a lot about, but as you said in a post long ago to someone else " im barking up the wrong tree " lol - it is obvious you are too comfortable in your belief in whatever they put in the standard. That information provided from eyewitnesses or reported to media that can be relied upon to represent Native people - just isnt good enough for you. You also seem unable to suspend your own disbelief and put yourself in the moccasins of the Six Nations People.

and even you cant seriously compare a peaceful sit in ( and yes it was 100% peaceful until the OPP moved in ), a road blockade ( minor inconvienience at best, people had to drive around totalling a few extra minutes ), and a handful of scuffles ( a few scrapes WOW ), and a few days without power ( that matter is still under investigation - so dont pin that one on an Native quite yet ) with this fallacy of a standoff you are fantasizing about.

Regarding other fire near to the site, around the same time as the transformer - in this case a Barn directly accross from the site. It was set ablaze shortly after nighfall. Who was the first on the scene to help the family out - you guessed it the WARRIORS and other people from the protest site. Together they managed to lessen the damage from the fire. The Man they helped went public with his opinion that the protesters were not invloved. im curious if you heard that story out west - and if so what kind of twist was put on the story?

Ive talked to Sahara about this, and i have expressed sympathy for what shes gone through. Im not sure if she has received any of the 1.7 Million Dollars coming to the town. Irregardless of who caused the power outage ( that remains unproven ) she and others in the same situation should be the first ones to get some of the Cali-Cash. But you know who will be first at the trough? The businesses in town which turned away good paying customers because they were Natives. Racism was rewarded. They claim the road blockages affected sales in their respective businesses because of people being unable to frequent the town. The main roads into Brantford and Hamilton were always open ( Hamilton is 10 minutes away and has a population of over 650,000 and Brantford - 20 minutes away with more than 90,000 people ). The real reason their sales have declined is that they alienated the closest demographic that frequented the town - The Natives - 10,000 plus strong on the reserve, with many more people living locally off-reserve bringing the total closer to 20,000 - of note is that Caledonia itself has a population of just over 10,000 - they have alienated a group of consumers who regularly patronised the town whos main population is equal to their own - 10,000 plus customers lost.... As ive said in one of my " missing " posts any of these business who turned away paying customers shouldnt get a single penny - racism is illegal, maybe they should be prosecuted?

ALL of which have been sparked by non-natives? Somehow I find that very hard to believe.

I find it easy to believe, that you found that hard to believe. The peice of this puzzle youre missing is that the Warriors are there to " react to " not to " initiate "

True, the residents may've been frustrated by the government's inaction.....but more so, I bet they're angry at the ones who are directly causing this misery for them (regarding some injustice being claimed)...to which they (Caledonia) have nothing to do with, other than be conveniently used as a tactical pawn to force the government to resolve the problem.

At least 60 residents realise they are not the targets of the protest, and have decided to do something positive so media pressure is kept on the governmet to take action. Many thanks to them

At least the supposedly red-neck Western Standard ....
And to think that the Western Standard has the reputation of being red-neck!

Supposedly....*cough*... any publiction with a section entitled " Shotgun Blog " has left any doubt to their red-nekkidness by the side of the road - thrown out of their pickup truck - barely missing the gun rack in the back - YEE HA!!!

And guess what, she did not deny about the reinforcements.
In fact, she corroborated the story of the Western Standard (and it only shows that the magazine was not making any empty allegations)....and made it clear that the violence was never the intention of the elders. That it was instigated by some radicals within your group.

Thank You for proving the point i made earlier - Six Nations people are not hiding from media scrutiny.

But Turtle Island News? Nowhere did it mention anything about the toppled power line...or the 300 reinforcements on that day. Not a hint of any wrong doing from ANY NATIVES. EVERY NATIVE was squeaky clean of any wrong-doing...that's what's this Turtle News is saying!

If you go to their website youll see that isnt the case - read a few articles.

...it was pointed out that the vandals were castigated or were warned beforehand by the elders (therefore I'm assuming these vandals are Indians)!
So what is this contradiction between that statement and the statement of Turtle News?

When you say vandals youre talking about the Transformer, right? Or are you talking about the seperate assault incidents? Because as i said earlier, anybody could have been guilty of the arson on the transformer - non-natives included.

If this is the best sample of your source of information....then the Western Standard wins hands down as far as objectivity and credibility is concerned....and undoubtedly proving they follow responsible journalistic rules. And to think that the Western Standard has the reputation of being red-neck!

Uh-huh OK - keep a hold onto the reighn there! bad pun intended.

Sorry Enskat, but this is not really objective news. This article is more of a PRESS RELEASE.
Others may even see it as nothing more than a rallying or "propaganda" rag.

No need to apologise Betsy - i recognise and accept your limitations.

Kindred · June 26, 2006

Betsy your comments are considerate, well thought out and show a compassion for both sides as well as your stand that violence and inconveniencing people who are not responsible and have no influence or responsibility for Government decision is not the way to go, and are all ignored.

There is no exchange of thoughts, and ideas, or compromise only "my way is the right way" and mayhem will prevail and every white person will pay.

You are dealing with a racist, dear, I do admire your restraint, though your consideration isnt being recognized.

betsy · June 27, 2006

Thank you for posting the article from the Turtle News. It clearly speaks for itself.

August1991 · June 27, 2006

I have actually read through this long, long thread. I cannot say it's an edifying experience but we have had worse threads. I suspect the discussion here is far more civilized than any discussion occurring in Caledonia - and this thread has taught me something, in a way.

For one, the posters defending Aboriginal claims have invariably resorted to sarcasm, rank exaggeration and delusions of grandeur. These posters have a HUGE chip on their shoulder. To wit:

I find this attitude of taking credit for the work of others rather surprising. Many people of European extraction would never compare themselves to Hitler simply because of shared European heritage, but they take full credit for the invention of the snowmobile because "white people created it for society", even though they have nothing in relation to Armand Bombardier apart from a common heritage.

That's what everyone's missing here - this situation is not about some group of Canadians doing something in Canada. This is an international situation between to Separate Nations. It could just as easily be between China and Tibet (maybe a bad example, since China did exactly what you're calling for, to the Tibetan People) or France and Venezuala, or the US and Guatemala.

To many of us...it certainly pays to be Caucasian in this country. You get a tiny bit inconvenienced and you get a cool million, whereas we Indians have to wait to get raped and beaten to get less than ten grand....if we make it past the serial killers and pig farmers.

Riv, Buddy ol' Pal...if you are using the statcan site as a source of "reliable" data, than you're really stretching your rubber arm and the one leg your standing on is looking kinda wobbly.
I know you can do better than that. Have you tried looking for info in the Department of Caucasian Affairs?

Riva Menchen - you do have a lack of respect for legality/contracts - or is that only ones signed with Native peoples?
....

Thankfully, Uber Riv despite your assertion to the contrary - that MAJORITY you speak of - do not think along the same lines as you. I dare say they would choose to honour a contract signed. So let me affirm the fact your are securely in the moral minority.

Faced with such childish provocation, Riverview and Betsy have been models of restraint.

Sarcasm is often the debating tool of the weak, and it appears that these posters feel terribly hard done by. It's close to trolling because it is deliberately provocative simply for the sake of being provocative. I would not be surprised if these posters are banned in the not too distant future if this keeps up.

----

There's something worse though. The following posts are nothing short of threats, and it implies that this whole land claim amounts to extortion by intimidation:

ME? Listen sweetheart, be careful before you start trying to label me as a terrorist in my own fucking country, cause I will hunt you down and bannock slap your pink ass!!!!

If you were to cancel all the treaties and say " SORRY, wasn't us" you can bet your pink bottom that the entire country will create Mayhem, unless you have failed to learn anything of our people in the last 30 years or so. We are getting stronger, bigger and MUCH faster than anyone else. Your " majority" is dying off. In fact, it will be OUR people that will be your health attendants pushing your wheelchairs and counting your money. Pretty picture aint it?

Temagami, Ahni, NativeCharm and myself have all reiterated at one time or another that the matter is not going to go away. These protests are essential to keep the governments attention fixed on the issue, without this attention being drawn the government will find it quite easy to ignore - as they have done for countless years previous. Obviously this cannot be allowed to happen.
The Native people have exhibited extreme patience and tolerance with the abuses of authority they have endured over the years. These injustices were hidden from the public for so long. Only now - since the people have begun to pull together, to stand up, organise and get the word out are the people of Canada realising what has transpired.

Good things are happening - the government is listening - there is forward movement in negotiations.

Except, good things are not happening.

The gap in life expectancy between First Nations and other Canadians is seven years.
Suicide rates of Registered Indian youth (ages 15 to 24) are eight times higher than the national rate for females and five times higher for males.

62% of First Nations people aged 15 and over perceive alcohol abuse as a problem in their community, while 48% state that drug abuse is an issue.

39% of Aboriginal adults reported that family violence is a problem in their community; 25% reported sexual abuse and 15% reported rape as problems.

Incarceration rates of Aboriginal people are 5-6 times higher than the national average.

Statscan

-----

For me this standoff at Caledonia is exactly like the one in Oka 16 years ago. 16 years ago. A fat lot of good that did for natives. This land claim has nothing to do with helping native people in any way whatsoever. Settling this claim will do nothing to change the statistics cited above.

Instead, this is a small group of violent Indians - gangsters - who have taken over the reserve. They are bullies in the same way the posters to this forum are bullies. And like bullies, they will back off at the first sign of serious force.

For the past 40 years, Quebecers have been involved in a serious debate about sovereignty. This debate has been peaceful and civilized - excepting the FLQ. Indeed, when the FLQ stepped way out of line, they were met with the full force of the State.

When a few people burn bridges, transformers, shoot police officers and prevent police executing a judge's orders, then these people are common thugs. The thugs behind this dispute are behaving like Hell's Angels, a law unto themselves. This will accomplish nothing for ordinary Natives and may well lead to something far worse.

The sad thing is that ordinary Natives deserve far better.

Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe · June 27, 2006

Way to go august youve confirmed once again that fear/hate mongering is alive and well in Canada, and on this forum.

If you have indeed read this entire thread youll know that I initiated it with one purpose - to discuss what education people had received about Native studies in school. We had a good debate going ( Betsy included ) until the fear/hate mongers derailed the discussion.

In regards to your post - sarcasm is also a form of humour - which you obviously dont get.

We ( Temagami, Ahni, NC, GC, myself ) have all repsonded to the repeated stereotyping and closet racist content posted here with amazing restraint - and we have chose to use a bit of humour in the face of this adversity.

You have a flair for taking comments out of context - my comments regarding " good things happening " were concerning the peaceful negotiations, and the ground being made there. I dont think any of us deny your numbers provided form statscan, however, the problems currently faced by Native people are the same ones faced in any sector of Canadian society, and really have nothing to do with the land claim issue to which this thread has evolved into. But continue supporting your primary argument with unrelated facts - its amusing, with the added bonus that anyone reading your comments will immediately know where youre coming from. They may agree with you or may not, but im comfortable that any Canadian presented with the actual facts ( those not distorted by the media ) will come to the same conclusions that many of us already have.

Instead, this is a small group of violent Indians - gangsters - who have taken over the reserve. They are bullies in the same way the posters to this forum are bullies. And like bullies, they will back off at the first sign of serious force.

When you say " gangsters " you are referring to the Warrior Society, yes? They were called in to defend those who are less able to defend themselves - women, children, and the elderly. And fact is that they wouldnt have been called if the OPP wernt forced to conduct the raid. ( i have plenty of sympathy for the OPP becasue i realise they were put in the middle - either do it or possibly lose their job ) The Six Nations people rallied around the protesters repelling the raid - in case you missed the underlying point they were on the defensive - like they have been throughout the various confrontations. I find it hard to equate the written word with bullying, since bullying implies actual physical force being applied - hard to do through a forum. lol but then again your are in the same group of posters who compare the stand for Native rights as terrorism. that word has been stretched to the point of breaking.

Comparing the sovereignty issue in Quebec - while simular, is still comparing apples to oranges. But i do sympathise with the Quebec issue - i think all culture should be protected and preserved, it enriches us all. I dont get defensive about other cultures, i want to learn about them.

When a few people burn bridges, transformers, shoot police officers and prevent police executing a judge's orders, then these people are common thugs. The thugs behind this dispute are behaving like Hell's Angels, a law unto themselves. This will accomplish nothing for ordinary Natives and may well lead to something far worse.

You are combining incidents that happened at different times and places. You do say " a few people " are involved in the arson/vandalism near the Six Nations protest, but what you fail to mention is that the matter is still under investigation, and at the time the incidents took place there was free access to the area. Meaning ANYONE could have done it - until the investigation is complete we cant know for sure who did it. right?

What this whole situation did accomplish is to force the government to begin dealing with the situation of land claims, and this protest and others will continue until a negotiation is reached.

Native people are uniting coast to coast in order to be heard, and they are being joined by a growing group of non-native supporters. The site has been very quiet lately, depite that some people have contacted the media with reports of bunkers, gunshots, weapons and ammo being cached or stashed, burning property - all of these have not been reported to the police. If these things truly did occur you can guarantee the police would investigate - the OPP are there within 50 feet of the protest 24 hours a day - if a gun had gone off they would have heard it. Unfounded reports such as these are where most of the public are getting their information, actually misinformation. A small number of people are upset that the situation has cooled down and just wont be happy until something erupts.

The sad thing is that ordinary Natives deserve far better.

On this we agree 100% - lets start by honouring our obligations, and removing legislation like the Indian Act.

betsy · June 27, 2006

When you say " gangsters " you are referring to the Warrior Society, yes? They were called in to defend those who are less able to defend themselves - women, children, and the elderly. And fact is that they wouldnt have been called if the OPP wernt forced to conduct the raid. ( i have plenty of sympathy for the OPP becasue i realise they were put in the middle - either do it or possibly lose their job ) The Six Nations people rallied around the protesters repelling the raid - in case you missed the underlying point they were on the defensive - like they have been throughout the various confrontations. I find it hard to equate the written word with bullying, since bullying implies actual physical force being applied - hard to do through a forum. lol but then again your are in the same group of posters who compare the stand for Native rights as terrorism. that word has been stretched to the point of breaking.

But you are forgetting...or deliberately ignoring one crucial fact why you are in the wrong: Your protest is illegal. It goes against the law.

Maybe I'm not getting it....but can you please explain why you were raided by the OPP. I've asked this before but received no reply.

betsy · June 27, 2006

You are combining incidents that happened at different times and places. You do say " a few people " are involved in the arson/vandalism near the Six Nations protest, but what you fail to mention is that the matter is still under investigation, and at the time the incidents took place there was free access to the area. Meaning ANYONE could have done it - until the investigation is complete we cant know for sure who did it. right?

Combination of various incidents at different times and places, as you say, does not erase the fact.

Arson and vandalism was involved. Criminal activities occurred.

The legal adviser of the chieftains, actually conceded and agreed that yes, the violence involved the "imported reinforcements" from Toronto. She was quick to denounce that "it was instigated by some radicals from within"....and this Indian legal advisor went further to name a radical prominent Indian figure, Kahinetha Horn, as fanning and inciting violence!

She was obviously trying to do some damage control....and trying to distance the chieftains from this violent group!

Native Charm's indignation at what he/she called "dis-honoring the Native people" by me for practically just voicing out what or how the incidents were clearly being seen and/or perceived...sounded so ludicrous that saying it was hypocritical would be quite an understatement.

That radical group from within your own people had "hijacked" and took over your protest and ignored the wishes of your own leaders. It not only made your leaders look quite ineffective....but made your whole grievances look like a joke!

In one single swoop....this radical bunch derailed what your leaders were trying to achieve, and only cemented the stereotypical image you're trying to erase: that Natives can't get their act together. No wonder they're still in such a mess compared to all the other ethnic groups here in Canada.

This bunch who took over your protest spat on your own people.

Riverwind · June 27, 2006

Way to go august youve confirmed once again that fear/hate mongering is alive and well in Canada, and on this forum.

Translation: You had the nerve to criticize the actions of a native person(s) therefore your are guilting of fear/hate mongering.

If you have indeed read this entire thread youll know that I initiated it with one purpose - to discuss what education people had received about Native studies in school. We had a good debate going ( Betsy included ) until the fear/hate mongers derailed the discussion.

Translation: We had a mutual love fest going until some people had the nerve to question the underlying assumptions.

In regards to your post - sarcasm is also a form of humour - which you obviously dont get.

Sarcasm is not a kind of humor that works in written debates.

We ( Temagami, Ahni, NC, GC, myself ) have all repsonded to the repeated stereotyping and closet racist content posted here with amazing restraint - and we have chose to use a bit of humour in the face of this adversity.

If "I will hunt you down and bannock slap your pink ass!!!!" is amazing restrained then I shudder to think what you think unrestraind would be.

Temagami Scourge · June 27, 2006

August: Part 1

I have actually read through this long, long thread.... For one, the posters defending Aboriginal claims have invariably resorted to sarcasm, rank exaggeration and delusions of grandeur. These posters have a HUGE chip on their shoulder.....There's something worse though. The following posts are nothing short of threats, and it implies that this whole land claim amounts to extortion by intimidation...

Wow...I see that we are selective in our choice of commentary...right to the point of removing items from context.

Let's see what the non-Natives write:

Betsy:

I do not see the practicality of having a mandatory subject solely on Indian studies included in school curriculum of NON-ABORIGINALS.

Why not...our current curriculum is all about Caucasian historical personages..but did you miss the inference August?

Here's another good one from Betsy:

Believe it or not, I remember about Pocahontas, the Wampum belt, as part of American History (taught in grade school during my time in the Philippines). In the Philippines!

Somehow she thinks Canadian history is reflective of the American experience, so she is grafting something completely different onto what goes on here. I've oft pointed out this error, but you certainly haven't August, and this is elementary.

Whereas, I respond like this:

Are you kidding Betsy?
Again, you have a thorough lack of understanding of Canadian history. Being here "first' is why the Crown has a legal relationship with the Aboriginal people in this country. That is why the Irish, the Italians, the Jamaicans, the Peruvians (oh, and Filipinos) and anyone else calling themselves an Ethnic group can't claim a legal relationship with the Crown....because they opted to come here.

As I've often said, the Crown did not sign treaties with the Native people here just because their skin was brown and their hair was black. The Crown signed treaties in Canada because they wanted a legal method of bringing title of the land under their authority, and the Proclamation issued by the King in 1763 already outlined the method to go about bringing these surrenders about.

That, to the great misfortune of many posters on these threads, is the history. People forget that the land called "Canada" was traded for all the benefits and rights that Aboriginal people have now. and as I often said, I would gladly give up the benefits and rights in exchange for the land, as per the original deal.

Sorry you missed these arguments August. Must be my fault, eh...that big chip weighting me down? (Oops...that's sarcasm! I guess I'm not up to par to argue on these issues because of my enduring sarcasm!)

What I'd like to know, August, is why you aren't taking posters to task over recurring misinformation? The Native people here are doing so, but you apparently revel in it. My post above that explains why American history is unsuitable ALSO happens to explain the premise on which treaties were based, and yet we constantly hear this:

Riverwind:

Insisting on race based rights will ultimately lead to more violence and discord. There only solution that will work is one that treats everyone Canadian equally no matter what their race happens to be.

or

Riverwind:

...granting special rights to certain Canadians based on their ethnic background is wrong and will lead to an increase in racial tension and violence.

or

Geoffrey:

What is with everyone lately, wishing to go back to the days of racism, giving one race privledged status above all others?

Why aren't these people on a federal government thread addressing the politicians responsible for the Indian Act? Why must they make the same incorrect point and argue with the Natives? We can't do anything about it.

End of Part 1

Temagami Scourge · June 27, 2006

August: Part 2

Regardless, the provocation is the best thing on this site...and here August says the non-native posters are acting so "proper":

Geoff:

...Indians in Canada have no excuse for their poverty, and further financial support of these people is just a waste of our money and likely to worsen their situation....What is seriously so great about the Indians... to me they seem kind of like a failed society.

According to the above, we Indians are failures...and sarcastic terrorists.

Geoffy:

How have the Indians contributed to society in Canada? Any real examples?

(More sarcasm) Yes...Indians have done nothing, which is why we ask questions like this.

River:

The wording of treaties mean nothing

Of course...only agreements between real people ie Caucasians, are legal. treaties are there to be ignored!

River:

The people who signed these agreements are long dead. People living today are trying to use their race as a basis to claim to benefits under these agreements.

The folks who wrote the Indian Act are long dead, and yet it is still law....hence this question makes so much sense...

But what gets me the most are the "facts" that out non-Native brothers and sisters post here. Here are a few examples:

Scrib:

....tourists assaulted and robbed, residents harrassed in their own homes

Can we see some proof that homes have been entered? Where are the robbed tourists?

Sahara:

In Caledonia, private property is being destroyed and citizens are being assaulted in plain view of established law enforcement.

Yep...only the Natives are acting badly....

scrib:

... the land was sold to the gov't, there is no question there.

Actually, the "sale" is the question, but you wouldn't know it here, because it is "already" Canadian land, eh?

Geoff:

The funding amounts per Indian is just ridiculous, I often wonder where it all goes. $40,000 per average family hand out (there is a little more than $10k per Indian spent every year), tax free (equivalent in a working man's income would be about $70k per family).

I wonder where these figures came from? They certainly don't jive with my math...$40K per family? Where's is my cut then? I certainly never see that, and I have a card. Maybe its just more bullshit...

Geoff:

Firstly, I don't blame you guys defending your free handouts

What...signing away the land isn't payment enough?

All in all August, I've read this thread and my conclusion is markedly different. I think that Ahni probably put is the best with this gem:

We are nothing special geoffrey, and do not claim to be above or below anyone, eventhough federal policy insists we are sovereign-dependant wards of Canada

boy...she sure got lambasted for making this "threatening" statement.

Augie...when you're done with the tunnel vision glasses, send them my way...I want to see how they work.

The End.

Temagami Scourge · June 27, 2006

River:

Translation: You had the nerve to criticize the actions of a native person(s) therefore your are guilting of fear/hate mongering.

Reading a bit much in there, eh River? I thought Enskat was incredibly restrained in his reply, but the idea of crediting a Canadian like Enskat with a thoughtful response would preclude him from the "savageness" of his station, as you thoroughly believe.

If you have indeed read this entire thread youll know that I initiated it with one purpose - to discuss what education people had received about Native studies in school. We had a good debate going ( Betsy included ) until the fear/hate mongers derailed the discussion.

Translation: We had a mutual love fest going until some people had the nerve to question the underlying assumptions.

Actually, Enskat was doing a good job of trying to engage our online community in a meaningful discussion, until folks like Geoof came on with posts like:

How have the Indians contributed to society in Canada? Any real examples?

that sounds a bit provocative, wouldn't you think? Accusing the Natives of not doing anything? Oh...i'm sorry, you, Betsy, Geoff and Kindred et al believe that statements like this reflect the truth....sorry for questioning your underlying assumptions...

Sarcasm is not a kind of humor that works in written debates.

Actually, it seems to be working quite well right about now. it is more a matter of how sarcasm is presented, and the manner in which I've been doing it has certainly forced people to stop making stupid points...save you, of course (that wasn't sarcasm). You still don't get it, but we'll animate you soon enough.

We ( Temagami, Ahni, NC, GC, myself ) have all repsonded to the repeated stereotyping and closet racist content posted here with amazing restraint - and we have chose to use a bit of humour in the face of this adversity. If "I will hunt you down and bannock slap your pink ass!!!!" is amazing restrained then I shudder to think what you think unrestraind would be.

In Indian, a "bannock slap" is another phrase for providing a soothing back rub and buttocks massage. I think NC was misinterpreted, as he really wants to be attentive to the needs of non-native posters. (OK...that was sarcasm again).

betsy · June 27, 2006

Here's another good one from Betsy:
Believe it or not, I remember about Pocahontas, the Wampum belt, as part of American History (taught in grade school during my time in the Philippines). In the Philippines!

Somehow she thinks Canadian history is reflective of the American experience, so she is grafting something completely different onto what goes on here. I've oft pointed out this error, but you certainly haven't August, and this is elementary.

You misunderstood me there, Tem. I was only informing or being conversational (is that the appropriate word?)...what was included in my American History subject. I emphasized "in the Philippines!" cos who would've thought someone from the Orient is learning about these things....not that anything is wrong about that, don't get me wrong for Indians were part of American history. And no, I did not "graft" that onto what goes on here.

Btw just out of curiousity, Indians here did not use Wampum belt?

Oh, and if you ask me about American History....you'd still find me pathetically ignorant inspite of those education. What can I say, History has never been one of my favorite subjects.

Temagami Scourge · June 27, 2006

Betsy:

I know full well that you are discussing the Filipino experience, but I purposely took your quote out of context because that's what August was doing with the Native quotes.

I know how stupid it is for Filipinos to learn American history, but that is the legacy of American influence on the Philipines. The Philipines had their own history...and a long one at that, but you wouldn't know it if one was reading Spanish or American sources. In both cases, Philipine history doesn't begin until the arrival of Caucasians.

That is patently wrong.

It is also wrong to compare the American and Canadian Aboriginal experiences. Both were vastly different, and grounded in different points of Caucasian law. However, seeing as how many Canadians think likewise, I guess you can say you come by it honestly.

...and yes, wampum was used by Nations here

Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe · June 27, 2006

Hear it from the horses mouth - yet another resource for information

Call in Radio program about the Caledonia situation

( they take callers from both sides of the debate )

on CKRZ 100.3 FM starting 1 PM EST Monday to Friday

LISTEN ONLINE - http://www.ckrz.com/player/Player.htm

August1991 · June 28, 2006

Betsy:
I know full well that you are discussing the Filipino experience, but I purposely took your quote out of context because that's what August was doing with the Native quotes.

I don't think I took the quotes out of context. I read through the thread and my general impression was that pro-Native posters used sarcasm and belligerence. I gave those quotes as evidence. IME, sarcasm is sometimes a sign of a weak bully.

I know how stupid it is for Filipinos to learn American history, but that is the legacy of American influence on the Philipines.

On the contrary, I don't think it's stupid to learn North American history. I think most people around the world have learned that American Indians are called Indians because a White guy got lost.

But this thread was never about education. It's about frustration.

Temagami Scourge · June 28, 2006

August:

But this thread was never about education. It's about frustration.

Ya call's 'em as ya sees 'em, bud.

August1991 · June 28, 2006

August:
But this thread was never about education. It's about frustration.

Ya call's 'em as ya sees 'em, bud.

As you do too.

I'll make a private comment in a public way. I enjoy reading your posts, Temagami. You make me think.

betsy · June 28, 2006

August:

But this thread was never about education. It's about frustration.

Ya call's 'em as ya sees 'em, bud.

As you do too.
I'll make a private comment in a public way. I enjoy reading your posts, Temagami. You make me think.

Sort of off-topic but had to be pointed out.

I like reading your posts too, August. We may not agree with some issues in other threads but you do have a way of explaining your views, inviting "opponents" to look at things from a different angle. I remember in one particular heated debate we had...reluctantly....you got me agreeing with you!

betsy · June 28, 2006

August:
But this thread was never about education. It's about frustration.

Ya call's 'em as ya sees 'em, bud.

Sorry but I have to agree with August. I see the same thing.

I've gone back to the top of the page with Enskat original post. Apparently it's been edited and I can't remember what the rest of the post had said.....however, I'll assume that his intention is as he said it.

"In this thread id like to discuss what level of awareness about Native Issues are being taught in schools today. And the level of education any one of us received growing up."

Tem, post #2 came from you. And here is the explosive excerpt from it.

"If the Feds were so certain that things were in their favour, they would have pressed on with the court case and hammered the Six Nations...

but they didn't. they know that there is far more involved that what the public knows, and the public is being fed with more misinformation on a daily basis.

bout the only "good" thing that came out of the blockade was that we truly got to see the depth of hatred Canadians have for Native people. This should be a wake up call for all those people in our communities who keep saying that we need to work with non-natives.

Bull crap. we need to protect ourselves from these people. That is what is clear."

betsy · June 28, 2006

I've gone back to the top of the page with Enskat original post. Apparently it's been edited and I can't remember what the rest of the post had said.....however, I'll assume that his intention is as he said it.

And yes. That was his real intention. Post #3, in response to you, confirmed that.

If one would really analyze the emotion behind your post #2, it does really reeked of frustrations and anger (resulting from that frustration I guess)....lashing out blindly. Perhaps it was evident that you were responding out with your emotions. And it seems posters were understanding of that. The rest of the discussion that followed actually ignored your provocative outburst.

Temagami Scourge · June 28, 2006

Tem, post #2 came from you. And here is the explosive excerpt from it.
"If the Feds were so certain that things were in their favour, they would have pressed on with the court case and hammered the Six Nations...

but they didn't. they know that there is far more involved that what the public knows, and the public is being fed with more misinformation on a daily basis.

bout the only "good" thing that came out of the blockade was that we truly got to see the depth of hatred Canadians have for Native people. This should be a wake up call for all those people in our communities who keep saying that we need to work with non-natives.

Bull crap. we need to protect ourselves from these people. That is what is clear."

what's so explosive about it? I still think that seeing people's true colors shining through is a good thing. Why would I want to spend my hard earned money at a business where the proprietor despises my skin color.

Betsy...you haven't been exposed to the racist filth coming from the mouths of people you wouldn't expect. Mothers with their kids in a stroller standing there and yelling "timber niggers" and "wagon burners", and then running to the mainstream media and telling them how their children are scared.

What bullshit. Instead, I see a whole new generation of racists starting to grow considering the way their parents act, and all that means is my little niece and nephew will have to deal with this Caledonian kid calling them timber niggers and wagon burners twenty years from now.

you don't see that. I've not seen that concept in any of your posts. Instead, you've justified the racist ravings of these Caledonians by saying that they are only doing that because of the Native protestors, hence the Natives deserve it, or in classic holocaust-denial fashion, you try to tell enskat that his video of drunken Caledonian thugs hurling rocks and insults at Native protestors (who, mind you, don't say much other than offer the odd riposte, as they've been asked to do and as I've said often enough) is possibly an altered video designed to make Caledonians look bad.

Give me a break. I go there. I see what happens with my own eyes, I hear what's being said....and I'm damned happy to see what many Caucasians truly think about Native people in general.

After having seen this for myself, I think that Native people will need to take steps to prepare to defend themselves. that might sound provocative, but look at the kinds of opinions we see even here. We have people like riverwind who believe that signed legal agreements are to be ignored, or folks like Kindred who feel that the army should be used against Natives to beat them into submission, or like Montgomery Burnski, who wants to hunt Natives with a gun in Regina.

These people all get to vote, and I'm sure that they would vote for any government that promised to ignore the law and deal harshly with the Natives.

...and all because the province saw fit to sell land that was supposedly put on hiatus when Six Nations switched from litigation to negotiation in 1995. The Feds had 11 years to deal with this, or go back to court, and they did, and continue to do, nothing.

Well...I don't see the feds having fireworks or rocks shot at them, or racist names being yelled at them. no, the Caledonians go for the natives because no on goes to jail for doing that to them!

betsy · June 28, 2006

Tem, post #2 came from you. And here is the explosive excerpt from it.
"If the Feds were so certain that things were in their favour, they would have pressed on with the court case and hammered the Six Nations...

but they didn't. they know that there is far more involved that what the public knows, and the public is being fed with more misinformation on a daily basis.

bout the only "good" thing that came out of the blockade was that we truly got to see the depth of hatred Canadians have for Native people. This should be a wake up call for all those people in our communities who keep saying that we need to work with non-natives.

Bull crap. we need to protect ourselves from these people. That is what is clear."

what's so explosive about it? I still think that seeing people's true colors shining through is a good thing. Why would I want to spend my hard earned money at a business where the proprietor despises my skin color.

But you are painting everyone with the same brush.

Temagami Scourge · June 28, 2006

But you are painting everyone with the same brush.

Betsy, the minute I can spot a racist Caledonian from a non-racist one is the minute I stop. I can't tell who is and who isn't racist in the same way that I can't tell who a virgin is and isn't by sight. But I was surprised by the number of people who thought nothing of using racist terms to express their anger.

It's one thing to counter-protest, but another to use racist language as casually as one would water a lawn.

Is that the Canada you want?

betsy · June 28, 2006

Betsy...you haven't been exposed to the racist filth coming from the mouths of people you wouldn't expect. Mothers with their kids in a stroller standing there and yelling "timber niggers" and "wagon burners", and then running to the mainstream media and telling them how their children are scared.

Oh yes I've seen and experienced it. Coming from GRANDMOTHERS too.

But there is racism everywhere. And every race have them. I see and hear some white folks being snickered at behind their backs.

And sometimes, words are said....not because they are being racist....but simply because that's how they talk...or they didn't really mean anything nasty about it.

Take for example this one scenario I witnessed. A Puerto Rican woman and one of my parents (a white).

They're talking about a recipe that the Puerto Rican woman was trying to share with the white woman.

The Puerto Rican said to the white woman, along with that tone, "You people...you don't even wash the chicken you buy. You put them straight in the pot from the pack."

We know she didn't mean anything bad about that.

"You people."...plus the criticism. If it was the white woman saying that....she'll be crucified upside down!

But the white woman took it in stride and didn't feel defensive or sensitive about it. She still had nice things to say about the Puerto Rican woman the next time we talked.

If that was said to me years ago, that would've gotten me bristling.

I am sensitive. Even my brother find me sensitive....that's why as a last word of brotherly advice before I boarded the plane, he called out..."and don't be too sensitive!"

It could be cultural too.

My point is....there are rotten apples mixed with the good ones. In every basket.

Temagami Scourge · June 28, 2006

Betsy:

My point is....there are rotten apples mixed with the good ones. In every basket.

yes...but at least with apples, you can see and smell the bad ones, thus avoiding or ignoring them. The same doesn't hold true for people, unless they are wearing something that clearly identifies their racist views. Some of the older ladies at Caledonia look like your basic librarian, whereas this one biker-dude was not pro-Native, but certainly was insulted by the way others were acting. Based on appearance, i'd thought I'd have more to fear from the biker guy than an older lady, but that certainly isn't the case.

Take Marie Trainer. No one from Six Nations had a problem with her until she pulled the "monthly cheques" comment. she had no clue how insulting she was, and still doesn't, but many Canadians think that all Indians do is sit there collecting welfare.

I can't remember who posted it, but I saw the same Chris rock HBO special, and I think that line he had was absolutely tops: "Yeah, a white guy wouldn't trade places with me 'cause I'm black...and I'm rich!"

So true....