The arrogance of those individuals and politicians that support socialist services that could be better provided by private companies.

[Barquentine]

On 9/9/2025 at 8:52 PM, blackbird said:

Of course it does.

So you believe in 2 classes of citizens? Like Apartheid....

 

On 9/9/2025 at 8:52 PM, blackbird said:

Just because a group of people vote for a party or government that takes a large part of someone's income or property to give to others doesn't make it right.  That is stealing by consensus or by vote.  It is still theft.

So, no taxation to provide any government services? That would be theft according to you.

And no insurance. I pay house insurance but I've never made a claim. But others have, so that's theft from me to give to them?

You should think these things through.

[cannuck]

On 9/7/2025 at 7:29 PM, blackbird said:

The condition of the public health system speaks for itself.  This article gives details and explains the problems.

Global News is just reporting another Emergency Room is closed, an excellent example of the results of the Socialist ideology.

BB:

Thanks for opening the topic, but now I suggest you keep an open mind and dump all of the partisan BS where it belongs.

To begin with you/we tend to refer to what we are discussing as "health care" when in fact it is something else very different: i.e. "sick care".  The main flaw in our system is the money doesn't move until someone is ill or injured, and we literally "get what we pay for".   I have spent decades in and around this topic and long ago came to these realizations.

Another generalization you/we make is "capitalism" being to the "right" vs. anything on the left being labelled "socialist".  In fact capitalism (use of capital to finance business) is a vital component within many genuine "left" countries (China topping the list) but we have developed 2 distinctly different kinds of capitalism: the classic legacy of private or public use of capital to fund business and create wealth and the "new normal" I call Casino Capitalism where the mechanisms are used to redistribute wealth by speculative gain.

Finally: we are locked into a partisan battle driven by those who profit from either ideology by seeking power for the sole purpose of granting privilege to exploit the public purse or regulatory environment.

We need to fix all of these things together as each one relates to or enables the other.

Let's start with this sick care thing.  You refer to thousands dying on waiting lists vs. some magic 
capitalist model where everyone gets immediate treatment and satisfaction.  Clearly you have no idea what happens when you become ill or injured in the USA.  You might want to remember that the wealthiest economy on the planet has miserable medical/health statistics vs. extremely high costs.  When you leave the whole sick care system wide open to business participation you get costs DOUBLED due to the vast army of lawyers and insurers now under the casino rules to dig in deep to build large blocks with M&As to drive not just the equity valuations but moreso the skim from finance from handling the massive block of bux..  You don't seem to realize that in the US if you don't have exceptionally good sick care insurance you won't die on the waiting list, you are more likely not to even GET on the list.  Then look at the huge revenue stream of big pharma and you quickly find another huge problem with honesty, medical effectiveness and cost.  Note that most Americans below "middle class" and especially in small business can't wait to turn 65.  Why?  Because they for the first time in their life could get medical costs covered by government and not dispensed and wildly inflated by sick care insurers.

Solutions?  First we need to think about who benefits from what function.  EVERYONE wins from health care, and for that reason should be a government provided social service to educate, inform and monitor its population.  This is one of the keys to getting the load of the sick care system created by lack of health care and exploitation by pharma, insurers and lawyers.

The next big deal is insurance.  Private insurance has become a major player in the world of finance and has demonstrated endlessly it will do anything and everything that benefits their business at the expense of the victims ("customers" - yeah, give me a break).   Sick care insurance should in my carefully considered opinion be provided by a government organization or contractor under direct government administration and control.

Where government is especially bad at providing service delivery this points to where the private sector needs to be unblocked from delivering medical service in a free and open, competitive market.  No reason a salaried government practitioner couldn't co-exist with private clinicians.  No excuses IMHO should prevent the private sector offering a wait-in-line vs. walk-tp-the front pricing option.   Just important that a private insurer has no possibility of profiting from the payment/funding of a social service.

Another thing that increases costs dramatically in the USA and crosses the border into our back pockets (mostly due to medical insurance premiums) is the LLL (Legal Liabillty Lottery) where about half of US sick care cost come directly or indirectly (due to liability related completely superfluous treatment and assessment costs).  I will take this one step further and state that I believe any and all legal advocacy should be a social service, not a fee for service function.

Big Pharma has also shown how incredibly greedy they can become when they are owned and operated by Casino Capitalists instead of legitimate businessmen.

Even more important - again IMHO - is to realize that the whole business of partisanship is what provides the mechanism to grant privilege to exploit.  We spend all of our time arguing left vs. right when the back rooms are busy handing out contracts and writing legislation and regulation to allow the problems we are discussing to develop into the mess we have today.

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, cannuck said:

Clearly you have no idea what happens when you become ill or injured in the USA.

First of all, that is not true.  I never recommended that we follow the USA health care system.

I know it has lots of problems and is not the solution.

For now, until I find something better, which is unlikely, I would point to Germany's health care system as a model we should follow.   I understand it doesn't help to criticize our system if we don't offer any solutions.  Well, that is why I point to the system Germany has.  That is a solution.  They have a long history of experience with it.  

You can read the whole webpage on Germany's system to see how it operates.  This is an excellent webpage on it.

The first part says this:

quote

Health care in Germany: Learn More – The German healthcare system

Last Update: December 18, 2024; Next update: 2027.

The German healthcare system is self-governed and operated by a large number of institutions and organizations. This article describes who is involved, how health care is structured, and how it has changed over time.

German health care is provided in two main settings: outpatient (mainly in doctor's practices) and inpatient (in hospitals). Some facilities, like rehabilitation centers, offer both outpatient and inpatient care.

The healthcare system is shaped and governed by many institutions and organizations with different tasks. These include doctors' and hospital associations, health insurers, quality assurance agencies, health ministries at federal and state level, as well as patient organizations and support groups.

Go to:

Basic principles of health care

Health care in Germany is based on four basic principles:

Compulsory insurance: Everyone who lives in Germany is legally required to have health insurance. Most people have to get public health insurance (gesetzliche Krankenversicherung, or GKV), also known as "statutory" health insurance. But employees with a gross income above a certain amount (known as the Versicherungspflichtgrenze) can choose between public health insurance and private health insurance. Other groups of people have this option, too, including many self-employed people and freelancers, public officials, judges and soldiers.

Funding through insurance premiums: Health care in Germany is mostly financed through the regular payments (premiums) of health insurance members and their employers. It is also subsidized through taxpayers' money. To give you an idea of what this means: State-funded healthcare systems like those in Great Britain or Sweden are almost completely financed through taxes. In the United States, most people have to get private health insurance or carry the costs of treatments and loss of earnings due to illness themselves.

Solidarity: In the German healthcare system, all public health insurance members and employers carry the costs together through monthly premium payments. Your premium is calculated based on a percentage of your income: The more you earn, the more you pay. But people who earn more than a certain amount (known as the Beitragsbemessungsgrenze) all pay the same maximum premium. Some family members can be insured for free – for example, if they have no income themselves, or don't earn enough. Anyone who gets ill has an equal right to the same medical care, regardless of their premium level. This means that the rich help the poor, and the healthy help the ill.

Self-governance: The German healthcare system is not run by the government. The government sets the legal framework for medical care. But the further organization, development and financing of individual medical services is mostly regulated within the healthcare system itself. This task is carried out by supporting organizations and care providers, including public health insurers, doctors and hospitals. In the case of health insurers, for example, representatives of the insured members and employers make decisions about things like budget issues, extra services (freiwillige Leistungen) and additional fees (Zusatzbeiträge). Doctors and psychotherapists organize the nationwide provision of health care in associations of statutory health insurance physicians and dentists (kassenärztliche Vereinigungen). The Federal Joint Committee (Gemeinsamer Bundesausschuss or G-BA) is the highest decision-making body within the self-governing system. You can read more about this below, in the section “Structure and institutions of the healthcare system.”

unquote

Health care in Germany: Learn More – The German healthcare system - InformedHealth.org - NCBI Bookshelf

Canada has made some major mistakes in establishing its public health care system. But I don't know of any political party that is advocating we change the system to make it, for example, similar to the German health care system.  It might be very difficult to do that in Canada.  The system we have is so entrenched it may be difficult to change.  It would require a massive amount of will in the population and political parties.  I don't see that happening.

 

[herbie]

That is s point to make, you have to go to it to make the health system work and even more so these days. You  have to push your doctors and hospitals to get them to follow through.
But then again what service comes to you ? It's 2025 the Fuller Brush Man and Avon Lady don't dome to you anymore.
But there's dieticians in almost all hospitals and my niece was one in small town Nfld. Other things too. But there's little Public Health and prevention online or on TV like when there were Foodsafe and participaction ads.

MOF I got a real laugh at Trumpy baby bragging he got Coke to switch to 'real' sugar. A sane politician anywhere else (here too) would brag if they got ir to ban ALL sugar! And those ten cent candy bars we gorfed down as kids are now on sale for $1.89 that problem's taken care of itself. Sadly CornFlakes are $8.99 while some brand of Chocolate Coated Sugar Bombs are always on sale for $3.99. I constantly tell store owners and cafes to stop ordering Diet Coke and just get Coke Zero, man will avoid the label "Diet" but half the town's diabetic, and women won't gripe if there's Zero and no Diet version.

We should do more about preventative health, but not by taking away from fixing the doctor-nurse-hospital situation.

[herbie]

Had a cousin who got injured  on a ride in the USA. Of course there was small print in the ride's waiver and my uncle needed to pay over $15K in the late 1970s just for emergency stuff and get him back to Canada.
Where he lived with a droopy eyelid for several years until they ruled it was necessary surgery for his mental health and covered the surgery, It got done, he had to wait, but didn't drive the family bankrupt.

[cannuck]

6 hours ago, blackbird said:

First of all, that is not true.  I never recommended that we follow the USA health care system.

I know it has lots of problems and is not the solution.....

Health care in Germany: Learn More – The German healthcare system - InformedHealth.org - NCBI Bookshelf

Canada has made some major mistakes in establishing its public health care system. But I don't know of any political party that is advocating we change the system to make it, for example, similar to the German health care system.  It might be very difficult to do that in Canada.  The system we have is so entrenched it may be difficult to change.  It would require a massive amount of will in the population and political parties.  I don't see that happening.

Glad you recognize that the US system simply doesn't work.  I have had several vicarious encounters from business associates, employees and medical friends.  Not enough room on the interwebs to delve into all of the problems, but suffice it to say it is the largest cause of personal bankruptcy.

I am vaguely familiar with both of the WWII protagonists' sick care systems today.  In Japan, they manage to treat everyone with zero wait time - by law - and in Deutschland a nice mix of public and private entities runs a decent government supervised deal.

I think we deserve the best of what we can learn from others, but with huge improvement of the health care component that is nearly non-existant here.

[herbie]

Give the man some credit, he is listening.

While we may agree more privatization is not the answer ( never in 45+ years seen a single case work better or less expensive for consumers )
there are answers and solutions out there.

The real problem is getting the people that can implement them to bloody listen.