Milk Concentrate Imports

[geoffrey]

That's silly blueblood. If the government essientially outlawed import of t-shirts from China, I could likely make a killing making t-shirts in Canada. All Canadian t-shirt wearers would suffer as a result from considerably inflated prices.

It's not a victory of the milk producers creating some kind of ideal outcome. They are using lobby strength to prevent Canadians from getting a market price for their dairy products.

[blueblood]

That's silly blueblood. If the government essientially outlawed import of t-shirts from China, I could likely make a killing making t-shirts in Canada. All Canadian t-shirt wearers would suffer as a result from considerably inflated prices.

It's not a victory of the milk producers creating some kind of ideal outcome. They are using lobby strength to prevent Canadians from getting a market price for their dairy products.

What if in your scenario China is the largest t-shirt maker, it's allowed to import, it would likely blow you out of the water by its low low prices. Now that China has all the market share, what on God's green Earth is going to stop it from jacking up their price? Not only do Canadian t-shirt wearers have to suffer from inflated prices, they have to suffer by paying for your social security while you find another business, they suffer by having our money leave the Canadian economy/tax system and going to the Chinese one which helps out the Chinese.

The Entertainment industry and the Canadian Entertainment industry is one of the most inefficient businesses in the free market, without government interference that industry would be in serious trouble, just look at the havoc Napster created. Without the CRTC I don't even know if there would be a Canadian entertainment industry. That is the most blatant use of lobby power to prevent people from getting market price for entertainment products, with Napster the market price would have been zero.

If Canadians don't like paying that much for milk, then by all means they can stop buying it, that should drop the prices and the Soybean farmers from Ontario would be laughing their ass off (Soy milk anyone). The consumer isn't entitled to whatever price they want for something they don't have, if they want it they have to pay the price the producers are giving at the time.

[August1991]

What if in your scenario China is the largest t-shirt maker, it's allowed to import, it would likely blow you out of the water by its low low prices. Now that China has all the market share, what on God's green Earth is going to stop it from jacking up their price?

Blueblood, your argument is absurd.

In Canada now, milk consumers are subject to a domestic legal cartel/monopoly. It already jacks up the price.

Canadian milk consumers would be better off with New Zealand or French dairy farmers. How could it be worse? The French or New Zealanders would compete for customers.

Canadian dairy farmers have a captive market and survive, in effect, on welfare. The Montreal Gazette knows this, I know this, and Geoffrey, Riverwind and Canuck know this. It is only a matter of time until other voters in Quebec and Canada know this.

[jester]

French dairy farmers.

Subsidised by the EU farm grant system. French farming isn't efficient..

[Borg]

Supply management in Canada looks after the poultry producer and the milk producer. While it is tough out there in agriculture, there are no supply management deals for the hog producer, the corn producer, the beef producer and so on.

If they are able to stand on their own two feet and make it work - then why are we guaranteeing the poultry and dairy producers an income? Which is pretty much what supply management does.

Someone back up the line mentioned a Son-in-Law selling his dairy out. Hmmm .... with quota running somewhere in the high $20K's and having hit the low $30K's - I suspect he is doing well. Even after paying everyone off - after all he probably had about 40 kilos - somewhere in the million two bracket.

As for poultry - somewhat off topic - to start into the game - poultry quota costs a minimum of $750,000 just to start into the game. The Ontario poultry industry is essentially controled by two families - no one else has the start up capital.

End supply management - end it now - let those who can make it continue - the remainder can sink - or sell out.

Borg

[Saturn]

None the less, I pay too much for milk to subsidize Quebec dairy.

Who will stop this?

Why won't free trade be respected? Why is Canada such a hypocrit on this stage?

One thing, Quebec farmers refusal to adapt new techonolgy and become competitive.

I don't know. The Americans are paying too much for beef and softwood lumber, so why are they doing it?

[fellowtraveller]

Back to the milk thing, the dairy business must be pretty safe, and pretty profitable.....

The Netherlands has bought out many of its dairy farmers, since the subsidies to farmers there are very high, and Europe is awash in unwanted milk already.

Some have come to Canada, and at least a few have bought up dairy operations near Edmonton.

The realtor who sold a couple of these multimillion dollar operations said the Dutch buyers had little interest in the facilities, and were only looking at the quota numbers. They knew that as long as farmers had quota, and a supply management system, their investment was both safe and quite profitable.

Something basic is wrong with that equation.

[blueblood]

In Canada now, milk consumers are subject to a domestic legal cartel/monopoly. It already jacks up the price.

Canadian milk consumers would be better off with New Zealand or French dairy farmers. How could it be worse? The French or New Zealanders would compete for customers.

Canadian dairy farmers have a captive market and survive, in effect, on welfare. The Montreal Gazette knows this, I know this, and Geoffrey, Riverwind and Canuck know this. It is only a matter of time until other voters in Quebec and Canada know this.

In the short run your plan of all these imported countries competing is noble - prices would instantly fall, but in the long run we will suffer. Our producers will get put out of business, New Zealand will be smoked by the French due to high E.U. subsidies, and guess what there's no competition to stop the price of milk from going sky high, plus we would have an unemployment problem with it, and instead of boosting our economy, we are boosting our competitors economy which in fact weakens ours, I think the lesser of two evils would apply here. There is nothing wrong with restricting supply in order to meet the demand, it seems that you are used to a flooded market place and used to the perks that come with it.

There is a cartel on oil and gas called OPEC, they set the prices and we pay willingly. Same goes for the tertainment industry and we pay willingly. If we can't make something for ourselves we have to pay for it, thats how it goes. I don't believe that the dairy farmers are getting welfare, they are getting paid fairly for a service they provide and the luxury of you going to the store and being able to buy milk and not having to wake up at 5 in the morning and milk a cow for it (doing that your dairy bill is eliminated).

This has happened in the farm machinery market, there used to be over 20 companies and everyone could afford new machinery, they then got greedy, merged and we have to pay through the roof to get machinery now, if there was rules and quotas, i don't think we'd have this problem.

fellowtraveller Posted Today, 12:32 PM

Back to the milk thing, the dairy business must be pretty safe, and pretty profitable.....

The Netherlands has bought out many of its dairy farmers, since the subsidies to farmers there are very high, and Europe is awash in unwanted milk already.

Some have come to Canada, and at least a few have bought up dairy operations near Edmonton.

And if the Europeans were smart enough to control how much milk they produce like we are here, it wouldn't be awash in unwanted milk, and the market price would correct itself according to demand.

Supply management in Canada looks after the poultry producer and the milk producer. While it is tough out there in agriculture, there are no supply management deals for the hog producer, the corn producer, the beef producer and so on.

If they are able to stand on their own two feet and make it work - then why are we guaranteeing the poultry and dairy producers an income? Which is pretty much what supply management does.

Someone back up the line mentioned a Son-in-Law selling his dairy out. Hmmm .... with quota running somewhere in the high $20K's and having hit the low $30K's - I suspect he is doing well. Even after paying everyone off - after all he probably had about 40 kilos - somewhere in the million two bracket.

As for poultry - somewhat off topic - to start into the game - poultry quota costs a minimum of $750,000 just to start into the game. The Ontario poultry industry is essentially controled by two families - no one else has the start up capital.

End supply management - end it now - let those who can make it continue - the remainder can sink - or sell out.

Borg

No lets end the government picking and choosing which industries they want to pull out of the free market, if we end supply management for dairy producers then bye bye craptacular canadian entertainment industry. As a grain farmer I'd love to get these benefits from laws passed by government, not cheques handed out like the europeans.

[margrace]

So milk farming is a welfare financed system. In Ontario you can buy a fully functioning dairy farm for $5,800.000. That will give you 72 milking cows and 310 acres. In the winter most farmers start milking at 5 in the morning and start the second milking at 5 at night finishing around 8. That is if nothing has gone wrong or is happening, Cow calving, giving trouble etc.

In the summer the day can start at five and end after 12PM. Remember this is 7 days a week.

If you have the money to do buy that I would think you are crazy to buy yourself this kind of work.

However a lot of farms are family owned and there can be three generations living off the sale of the milk. Most farms have only one house so mom and dad need a house somewhere close if they are helping.

If the farm does not have a herd of cows then that will cost you over $2,000 dollars per cow and $30,000 per cow for milk quota. If the farm has no barn that will cost you well over $1,000,000 and the milking parlour will cost anywhere from $500,000 to $1,000,000. Everyone in the family works day in and day out on that farm. These figures apply to a family relative.

In the Okanogan valley a beef farm will cost you $1,360,000. Remember this will not have cows, proper barn or milking parlour and then there is quota.

[Remiel]

That is one side of the argument I don;t think I have seen here yet: Why does farming (in general) cost so much to begin with? Is the equipment market lacking in some way? Are real estate costs driving up prices? Why exactly are things so much better for farmers in New Zealand anyway? If you don't want to help put the price up, then what can you do to drive the cost down?

[blueblood]

That is one side of the argument I don;t think I have seen here yet: Why does farming (in general) cost so much to begin with? Is the equipment market lacking in some way? Are real estate costs driving up prices? Why exactly are things so much better for farmers in New Zealand anyway? If you don't want to help put the price up, then what can you do to drive the cost down?

It costs so much just due to economics. we put our crops in and buy our inputs. As we become more and more efficient and get the nice grosses, the input costs soars due to the fact that instead of sitting on our cash and not spending it, we spend on inputs and therefore costs rise. On the other hand there are so many farmers that there is good competition which results in low prices from buyers which we have to take. The way to stop this is a good old shut down, but farmers are too small to afford a shutdown because they have to pay the bills and live hence the problem. To reverse these trends the gov't must give us the same protectionist laws the canadian entertainment industry and monsanto get so we can afford a shutdown, and more orgaization among the farming community to ensure that the shutdown is effective.

[geoffrey]

None the less, I pay too much for milk to subsidize Quebec dairy.

Who will stop this?

Why won't free trade be respected? Why is Canada such a hypocrit on this stage?

One thing, Quebec farmers refusal to adapt new techonolgy and become competitive.

I don't know. The Americans are paying too much for beef and softwood lumber, so why are they doing it?

Because their government is neglecting the ability of the market to provide a better solution for their citizens and a more competitive industry over the long term. As ours is.

It can't last forever. We tried tariffs, we tried subsidizes, and now our auto industry is pretty much a pile of rubble next to the non-unionized, ultra-efficient Japanese. The same will come of all leech industries, whether beef in the US or milk in Canada.

Canadian softwood producers are actually considerably subsidized through ridiculously low stumpage costs. So that's not a great comparison. I'm suprised you environmentally focused left wingers haven't rallied around the US demanding that big lumber pays us a fair deal. You do it to oil, why the double standard?

[blueblood]

None the less, I pay too much for milk to subsidize Quebec dairy.

Who will stop this?

Why won't free trade be respected? Why is Canada such a hypocrit on this stage?

One thing, Quebec farmers refusal to adapt new techonolgy and become competitive.

I don't know. The Americans are paying too much for beef and softwood lumber, so why are they doing it?

Because their government is neglecting the ability of the market to provide a better solution for their citizens and a more competitive industry over the long term. As ours is.

It can't last forever. We tried tariffs, we tried subsidizes, and now our auto industry is pretty much a pile of rubble next to the non-unionized, ultra-efficient Japanese. The same will come of all leech industries, whether beef in the US or milk in Canada.

Canadian softwood producers are actually considerably subsidized through ridiculously low stumpage costs. So that's not a great comparison. I'm suprised you environmentally focused left wingers haven't rallied around the US demanding that big lumber pays us a fair deal. You do it to oil, why the double standard?

Would you be supportive of all leech industries (such as the entertainment industry more specifically the Canadian entertainment industry and the monsanto GMO products hiding behind the plant breeders act) being put on the immediate free market without the government passing laws to protect it. If I can't get those privileges neither should they. It should either be a free for all (personally, the old grain farm isn't doing too badly, diversification of income helps out huge) or the feds pass laws to protect industries in trouble, none of this double standard Liberal party malarkey.

Oh and Saturn if you are worried about the "high" price of beef, take that up with Tyson foods and Cargill they have the cattle industry by the throat, cows aren't worth the hay they're fed, I've downsized our cattle herd to the point where they are just pets (thank God I did that back in 2000, but I can't make much money on the ones I still have, but they are not primary income)

[blueblood]

timesonline

WOW!!! and you wonder why I defend supply management.

[August1991]

WOW!!! and you wonder why I defend supply management.

Huh?

The Federal Competition Commission regulatory body said it will launch a probe into tortilla prices. "The objective of the investigation is to determine whether there is any collusion to fix prices, restrict amounts of the goods or divide markets between competitors," it said.

That is precisely what "supply management" in Canada does now for dairy and chicken products. Mexican consumers are complaining about a situation that Canadian consumers have lived with for over 30 years!

In fact, high world demand for ethanol and Mexico's tariffs on imported corn explain what is happening.

Economy Secretary Eduardo Sojo said he has authorized 450,000 tons of tariff-free imports of white corn from the United States, and another 200,000 from other global corn producers, such as South Africa.

Link

[blueblood]

That is precisely what "supply management" in Canada does now for dairy and chicken products. Mexican consumers are complaining about a situation that Canadian consumers have lived with for over 30 years!

Except that the Canadians are smarter with their supply, they ensure there is one and at a reasonable price.

Mexico lifted price controls on tortillas in the 1990s, and is now unable to directly fix the cost of the foodstuff.

To borrow an excerpt from my source, they don't have much of supply management. Their problem is an extreme lack of supply, and having to pay through the nose for it. I'm not sure what catastrophe happened there in that they have to import so much corn. If there was no natural disaster then we have a serious problem here.

This is exactly what I said would happen. Now with Mexico importing their corn instead of growing it themselves, they are now paying for it. And there is nothing to stop that price from going up to such a high proportion. Had they been under supply management, they might have paid a little more for corn earilier on when it was cheap, but they would not have had to pay the huge markup with importing without competition. I don't think removing tariffs is going to help the price out too much. Remember with Quotas a producer has a maximum he can produce, but he also has a minimum.

What has happened here is that the people were saying oh we don't want to pay this price for stuff we can make ourselves let's buy from someone else. Soon they are too reliant on someone else and the exporters are like hey we can charge a lot more for this, who do we have to compete with, they'll still pay.

The mexican farmers lose, the mexican people lose, the mexican economy loses, the only winner is the exporter. Had they had supply management the mexican farmer would be able to make a living, the people would pay a fair price for food and not get gouged in the long run, the economy is more prosperous by having its money stay and not go to another country, the only loser is the exporter from the other country.

Yes the biofuel industry creates a lot of demand for corn which increases the price. There is also a large demand for milk and our industry is responding. What if our domestic producers stopped producing because of imported goods at a cheaper cost, the demand is still high, what's to stop the exporters from jacking up the price with a lack of competition and a high demand? All I know is I don't want a situation like in Mexico do you?

[August1991]

Bump.

[cybercoma]

Bump.

Why?

[August1991]

Why?

In the card game of bridge, a player has a partner across the table.

In the card game of tarot, a player has a secret partner around the table.

[cybercoma]

In the card game of MLW, August1991 speaks in codes.

[August1991]

In the card game of MLW, August1991 speaks in codes.

Codes? Tarot is the best card game: You know that you have a partner, but you don't know who it is. Edited November 24, 2012 by August1991

[Guest]

Is that like Nomination Whist?

[August1991]

Is that like Nomination Whist?

No, Martha Hall Findlay is Harper's secret partner around the Tarot table.

[login]

None the less, I pay too much for milk to subsidize Quebec dairy.

Who will stop this?

Why won't free trade be respected? Why is Canada such a hypocrit on this stage?

One thing, Quebec farmers refusal to adapt new techonolgy and become competitive.

Drink a lot of milk and have a field.. buy one appparently they run $600-2000 and produce 40-80 lbs of milk / day.

That is 20-40 litres per day.

You can see how you could pretty much make your money back in a couple days. Say $2/ litre that is $40-80 per day. That is a month to 4 months you have made your money back.

Even if you don't drink that much yourself say you only want 2 litres a day, you can split it with 10 to 20 friends.

Edited November 24, 2012 by login

[cybercoma]

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for geoffrey to respond.