Is America Altruistic?

[FastNed]

Altruism, who ever claimed that our actions were motivated by altruism? A number of people on this Forum go back and forth about this but it is not the true issue.

We are at war with Islamic Religious fanatics who close to attack us in our home on 9 - 11. Before we end our operations, those who attacked us, those who support them, those who provide aide and comfort to them will be dead. We will never forgive and never forget. We will pay the Ferryman's fee for each of our dead and we shall not go quietly into the night.

You don't like that? Tough! Just don't get in our way.

We were willing to live and let live where these fanatics were concerned until they chose to kill our women and children. They have framed this issue as our death or theirs; so be it - their choice, their funeral!

You, and the remainder of the world are free to be anti-American, you are free to dislike us, berate us, criticize our every action but there is one thing neither you or anyone else has - freedom to kill us and our women and children.

If you are a person who prays, I suggest that you say one that we continue to control our justified rage, that we continue to be guided by our better instincts and inclinations and that we do not give free rein to our complete power. You should pray that there is not another 9 - 11 within America because you have the education to understand the strength and power of America. Pray that we are not so angered that our rage is unleashed and vast areas of this world become "Black Zones" incapable of supporting any life above the level of a cockroach.

We would not like what we had become, what we had been forced to do to insure our survival but we will do what is necessary to insure the survival of America.

We will not offer our throats for Halal.

[Mr Farrius]

You don't like that? Tough! Just don't get in our way.

Pray that we are not so angered that our rage is unleashed and vast areas of this world become "Black Zones" incapable of supporting any life above the level of a cockroach.

How altruistic...

Btw, the remark about certain areas of the world becoming "black zones"; it's never going to happen. I suggest you speak realistically.

[Black Dog]

I find it absolutely nauseating when people use the (admitedly horrific) deaths of thousands on 9-11 to justify the murder of thousands more innocents the world over, all in the name of an ill-defined, nebulous and ham-fisted "War on terror".

Long before the Twin Towers fell, America was dealing death to innocent women and children in every corner of the globe (example: the Vietnam War is considered one of America's gretest tragedies. Some 50,000 U.S. servicemen and women lost their lives in that conflict: more than 3 million Vietnamese were killed in the same struggle.) And yet, in a display of historical ignorance and cultural myopia typical of American culture, 9-11 is painted as the gravest affront to humanity since the Holocaust. Consider the more than 5,000 civilians who were killed in Afghanistan in the first salvo in the "War on Scary Concept". Or the 10,000+ Iraqi non-combatants who have lost their lives to the Anglo-American aggression there. For all its horror, 9-11 was but a taste of the wholesale slaughter other nations have long become accustomed to, yet to some, it seems American lives are to be valued more than any other.

In the wake of 9-11, America was the beneficiary of an outpouring of symapthy and goodwill from around the world. Since then, America has squandered nearly every iota of that understanding in its arrogant, reckless, bloody-minded pursuit of a unidentifiable, unvanquishable foe, the pursuit of which has seen America's leaders trample the same principles of justice, freedom and humanity that it claims to be defending.

There are three types of people who spur on America's misadventure: the manipulators, the Cheneys, Wolfowitzes and Perles who hide behind cabinet positions and in corporate boardrooms to whom 9-11 was nothing more than a golden opportunity to assert American power remains unchecked and guarantee economic, military and political dominance of the globe for years to come. Then there are the pragamatists who truly feel the United States, despite its legion flaws, is the only nation capable of taking charge and assuring order and stability. Then there are the pawns, the dupes and thugs who swallow the shallow jingoism and the constant propaganda drumbeat echoing across America, those who wrap themselves in the Stars and Stripes and the concept of their own superiority, who would accept totalitarianism, so long as it came in the trappings of democracy. These are the people who are content to cheer the deaths of foreign peoples while their own fat asses remained ensconced on their Lay-Z-Boys. People who, as we can see, would be willing to wreak unimaginable destruction on the world for the sake of their infantile desire for revenge and their masturbatory zeal for American power.

Do I hate America? No. But I am ashamed that a country with so much promise, a country founded on th ehighest principles of western civilization has been hijacked by the forces of greed, fear and ignorance. I fear for America's future and for its children, for the the war it is waging will be a war without end. America's children, and those of the world, will pay the price in blood and tears. they will be caught in a cycle of death and retribution that could tear the world apart. The only hope is that Americans relize that the path they are headed down is not the path to peace but to further bloodshed. I hope the people can regain control of their country and steer it back onto the path of righteousness and good and send the greedy men and their ignorant lackeys packing. As ye reap, so shall ye sow.

[theloniusfleabag]

Well said, Black Dog.

There are truly choices and actions far above those exhibited in the world at large today.

I once wrote a letter to the editor of my local paper, defending the writings of another 'concerned citizen'. His folly was to suggest that we need logic and reason to carry ALL of us forward. He was criticized (as was I) by both the editor and a Muslim cleric, for that solution 'being a dead end'. Zealotry, and to some extent faith, need no logic or reason. Only overwhelming power. It is eventually this master that they will come to serve.

[FastNed]

Hello, Black Dog, you are a serious participant on this Forum so I will respond to you.

First, the statement that "thousands" of innocents have been killed can only presume that everyone killed by America's actions are "innocent." Second, these figures are inflated (to put it kindly). Last, and this will send you into orbit - it doesn't matter.

The terms of this conflict were established when we were attacked - our civilians were targeted and killed. I agree that the Pentagon was a military target and, no doubt, had the Hero's Flight got to Washington our White House or Congress would have been targeted as well. It should be clear by now but let me be explicit: unrestricted warfare was unleashed upon us and we shall respond in kind when and where we choose! We have that right under the Laws of War. Every military in the world has been astonished at the precision of our military response as we have restricted our response in a manner never before witnessed in warfare. It has been surgical, aimed and, to the best of our ability, we have focused upon military targets. Civilian casualties are inevitable in any warfare and under the Laws of War, they are neither illegal or war crimes.

Now watch my lips closely and listen carefully - you bet your ass we value American lives more than those of our enemy. What kind of fairy tale world do you live in? Aim a weapon at me and mine and I'll kill you. It is your good fortune that you live in North American where your ancestors and mine fought and when necessary, killed to establish our peaceful civilization. They and many of us today understood that freedom is not without price. Sometimes that must paid in the blood of patriots and even today, when the bill for freedom is presented, there are those among us - American and Canadian - who stand ready to pay that price.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that we are in pursuit of an "unidentifiable, unvanquishable foe";

and here I thought we had done a fairly good job in identifying and establishing who it was that attacked us. Islamic fanatics -- and please let us not get into the flavor of the month game. I could care less what they call themselves or what artificial distinctions are made between this and that group. It just establishes a larger target selection.

You make a snide comment about those of us at home who support our troops and their actions "while their own fat asses remained ensconced on their Lay-Z-Boys. " You truly lack understanding of the spirit of Americans and our grim determination to pay the Ferryman's Fee for our dead. If we were able, there are several hundred million additional of us who would shoulder arms and join the fight. Perhaps this will increase your understanding of us: We are as fanatical about our vision of America as our opponents are in their sick version of Islam!

You express a concern:

The only hope is that Americans relize that the path they are headed down is not the path to peace but to further bloodshed.

I notice something rather odd in all you have to say, everything is America's fault. Nowhere, not once, do you mention or assign the least concern or blame to the Islamic fanatics - you give them a pass in all your pi$$ing and moaning about America and the blood "we" are shedding. Odd that! Perhaps your prejudice is showing.

I do agree, thou, with one thing you said:

"As ye reap, so shall ye sow."

Those that attacked us will meet the grim American reaper!

[Nuclear]

The US wasn't founded to be the world's parent or to help everyone. Every day we lose American jobs to foreigners willing to work for half the American pay. 60% of the food and medical support for the world comes from the US. It's not our job to help the world out cause next to no one returns the favors.

We're not here to be altruistic. Our military was founded to defend our soil. We were attacked, so now we're going to eliminate the enemy from the face of the earth. Once completed, we'll probably go back to ignoring the middle east(and a good thing too cause it's like a soap opera over there!)

[Mr Farrius]

We were attacked, so now we're going to eliminate the enemy from the face of the earth. Once completed, we'll probably go back to ignoring the middle east(and a good thing too cause it's like a soap opera over there!)

Of whom do you state that America was attacked by? Surely not Iraq? Surely you're not saying that America will eliminate terrorism from the face of the earth either, because right now the American government hasn't done much in finding Osama Bin Laden (who American intelligence supposedly claim has been behind the cause of 9-11) or any other real advance in the "war on terrorism".

[Nuclear]

Ya see, Iraq was a provider of weapons to terrorists. We stopped them before they could continue to develop into a greater threat like NK has. Although Bin laden may or amy have not been in Iraq, destroying Saddam's regime has helped put a dent in terror supporting nations...Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia are on the to do list. NK is a unique country as I think they are more interested in their own glory than they are giving their weapons to some wacko to walk into a restaurant screaming 'allah ackbar'(isn't ackbar the squid dude in Star Wars?)

NK is a threat, more so as a country itself than as a supplier.

How do we fight drugs on the streets? We prevent them from being smuggled in from Canada, Mexico, and our ports. We stop the suppliers. We have foreign governments helping to stop them also. This is the same with terrorism, only terrorists kill faster than drugs and can only be stopped by killing the terrorists themselves...

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Nuclear,

Iraq is not yet proven to be a provider of anything but rhetoric to 'terrorists'.

Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, provided the majority of the 9/11 hijackers. Saudi Arabia, who was and is a good friend of the US.

'Allahu Akbar' means 'God is great' by the by, which is repeated 34 times, along with 'Subhan il'aha' (God is pure) 33 times and 'Hamd-u-lilah' (Praise be to God) 33 times so that God's name is repeated 100 times, 5 times per day. At least that is how the devout muslims of the mujahadeen perform the service, even when fighting under the auspices of the USA.

With regard to drugs, the US truly does want to stop evil Marijuana from Canada, but fails to mention that BC bud is being traded pound for pound with crack-cocaine and being brought back to Canada.

Funny how wherever the US goes to fight a war, that nations drugs flood North America in very short order. Especially when the US is selling arms to local regimes who have no cash to pay.

[Hugo]

Fleabag,

I'd ask that you refrain from posting anymore on Iraq since in this thread and others you have proven yourself so woefully ignorant of the facts.

Saddam Hussein pledged a huge cash sum to the family of any suicide bomber who died killing Israeli civilians. The recent attack on the UN was clearly not the work of inexperienced amateurs. To state in the light of these things alone that "Iraq is not yet proven to be a provider of anything but rhetoric to 'terrorists'" is therefore a mere affirmation of your ignorance and nothing more.

Funny how wherever the US goes to fight a war, that nations drugs flood North America in very short order.

Any examples, or are you posting out of complete ignorance yet again?

'Allahu Akbar' means 'God is great' by the by, which is repeated 34 times, along with 'Subhan il'aha' (God is pure) 33 times and 'Hamd-u-lilah' (Praise be to God) 33 times so that God's name is repeated 100 times, 5 times per day.

Wrong yet again. Three strikes, Fleabag.

The Salat (Muslim prayer) goes as follows:

Allahu Akbar. (God is most great)

Bismil laahir rahmaanir raheem. Al hamdu lillahi rabbil 'aalameen, ar rahmaanir raheem, maaliki yawmid deen. Eyyaaka na'budu, wa eyyaaka nasta'een. Eh'denas siraatal mustaqeem. Siraatal lazina an'amta 'alayhim; ghayril maghdoobi 'alayim waladdaaleen.

(This is called the 'key' and is translated as, In the name of God, most gracious, most merciful. Praise be to God, Lord of all creation, most gracious, most merciful, master of the Day of Judgement. You alone we worship and ask for help. Guide us in the right path, the path of those whom You have blessed, not of those who have deserved Your wrath, nor of the strayers).

Allahu Akbar. Subhaana Rabbiyal Azeem. (God is most great. Glory be to God.)

Sami'Allahu liman hamidah. (God responds to those who praise Him.)

Allahu Akbar. Subhaana Rabbiyal a'laa. (God is most great. Glory be to God.)

This is the Dawn prayer. The other 4 prayers vary only in minor details. There is some repetition which I have left out for brevity.

"Mujahedeen" simply means "Holy Warriors". There are many groups calling themselves Mujahedeen. Which ones are you talking about? Or don't you know?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

I refer to the Pathan tribesmen in Afghanistan, quoting Robert Kaplan. Not the Gucci Muj, either. I assume he shortened the Salat down even further. I am glad that you could clarify that 'Ackbar' isn't the cry of a suicide bomber praising a squid person from Star Wars.

In reference to the drug posts, I shall refrain from using the word ignorance to refer to others, since it is not the damning criticism you think it is.

In Vietnam, heroin use amongst the troops and subsequently in the US, skyrocketed. Pepsico was busted with a heroin refinery, as was even alluded to in the movie 'Air America'. Why did Pepsi not sue when such blatant 'slander' was implied? Because it was true.

In Afghanistan in the 80's, hundreds of tonnes (300)of gold seal Afghani Hashish was found on the shores of Canada, abandonded by smugglers when they thought they might get caught. No worries, though, for there was so much it was all one could buy.( as a former hippie, I remember it well. I couldn't find pot, only afghani hash. Sure was good) [insert you 'flashback jokes here]

How were the Stinger missiles paid for? Hashish.

Read 'The Soldiers of God' by Robert Kaplan, and Also 'The Politics of Heroin" ( I don't recall the author, I got the book from the library). It includes some great pictures of US Army and CIA helicopters in the compounds of certain 'warlords' in the 'Golden Triangle". Followed by a sharp increase in heroin in the streets of the US.

Noriega from Panama, as you may recall, was an 'indicted, criminal, evil, indicted drug dealer' (loosely quoting George H. W. Bush on a rant) when it was proven in court that he was on the US army payroll for 31 years and the CIA's for 15 years. His job? To monitor the cocaine traffic from south and central america into the US, and to ensure the protection of the Panama Canal.

When Carter and Trujillo signed the treaty to turn over control of the canal to Panama, (then) President Reagan stated "It's ours, we stole it fair and square".

After the illegal invasion of Panama, cocaine and especially crack-cocaine became more popular and available than ever. Near my place of work I see it everyday. I have had to ask people to move off the front steps of my place of work and to 'go smoke their crack elsewhere".

[nova_satori]

[disclamier] When I refer to Americans, I mean ignorant, average, arrogant Americans, obviously, not every American fits that description, just the majority [/disclamier]

Do any Americans (besides me of course) understand that killing "terrorists" is the path to genocide?

If you constantly kill every terrorist, two will arise in his/her place. America will piss off so many people (as if there are any more left to piss off)

that eventually there will be a united front aganist her.

You CANNOT win this war with guns. You cannot win this war with bombs. Violence will only produce more violence. An Eye for an Eye makes the whole world blind. Do you want your kids to grow up in a constant state of fear?

How America will change this world is by installing Bono as its president. I'm not joking. Massive economic, medical and infrastuture aid will be the only way to change their hearts and minds. You you want people growing up being told that America must be destroyed at all cost? I don't. Americans are so quick to jump on the "shoot first, shoot second" train.

Drug war? That's a joke. That disaster has ruined Colombia, cost thousands of lives, and is further back then it was 10 years ago. You CANNOT win the war aganist supply. You must win the war aganist Demand. Once the demand is gone, supply will quickly dry up. Get rid of the supply, prices will skyrocket, and more people will get into the supply business. It is a cycle that will never be broken. Demand must die, supply will then take care of itself.

Whether you want to hear this or not, America is partially at fault for 9/11. America has done enough atrocities it is no wonder someone finally commited it. Whether it is right or wrong is irrevelent. It happened, and America is by no way not responsible. People seem to think that a country that has trampled over and destroyed countless cultures, shoved its culture down others' throats, used their land to launch strikes that destabilize their regions, exploit resources with no care for the environment, commit sacraligious acts...the list goes on and on. There is no exuse. No average American, not even a brilliant American can refute that America did not deserve part, if not all of 9/11. All they can do is either accept it, or throw massive amounts of vulgar, obsence insults at you. I've personnally been called a terrorist for understanding why 9/11 happened. That's the average American for you.

I fully agree with Black Dog that I am appalled that such a country with such promise could do such horrible acts.

Americans have failed to learn the brutal and harsh lessons of 9/11. History has a tendency to reteach lessons with far more suffering and pain then the first teaching. Sadly, I fear this next lesson will also be ignored.

I personnally think that if it takes a hundred thousand innocent people to die on American soil to awaken the ethnics, morality, and virtue of America that have been smothered, the price must be instantly paid.

Only a true enemy would not want that. patriots want their country to prosper, they want to see it reach its glory. This path we are on is the one to oblivion.

[FastNed]

Nova, I don't know if you can understand what is involved here but let me attempt a different approach. Let's make it personal between you and I!

Serious difference exist between us over religion, culture and politics. So long as we continue to discuss this between ourselves, there exists the possibility that one or the other of us will change our views, modify our actions or in some way mitigate the contentions between us. And then you make a fatal mistake!

You sneak into my home and kill my women and children. With this act, you have ended all discourse between us. You have eliminated any possibility of resolution of our differences. You have established that the only law between us is the law of the jungle and the survival of the fittest. You have crossed a forbidden line. You chose the rules of this warfare, that there are no innocents - no non-combatants - you selected unrestricted total warfare. Only the death of Nova or FastNed ends this conflict. You decided to call the tune, now you must pay the piper!

Does this personal approach increase your understanding of the reality which underlies the actions of America?

You state:

"You CANNOT win this war with guns. You cannot win this war with bombs."

Tell that to Hitler and every other madman who began unrestricted warfare. If we are forced to conclude that our "enemy" is every believer in Islam, then so be it. Before we give our throats to halal, before we go quietly into the night, we will give a new breadth and depth to the concept of genocide. They selected unrestricted warfare and the law of the jungle - did they believe that only they could make war on these terms? In our restraint, they saw weakness. In our desire to live in peace, they thought us vulnerable. In our desire to be civilized, they saw us as sacrifices to their sick concept of religion. They could not be more wrong.

Genocide is our last defense and we will not like what we become should we be forced to use it but make no mistake, they choose the law of the jungle. They will die with it.

[Black Dog]

Genocide is our last defense and we will not like what we become should we be forced to use it but make no mistake, they choose the law of the jungle. They will die with it.

Just to clarify: to win the war on terror and protect the principles of freedom, democracy etc. etc. etc. it may become necessary to trample said principles in favor of a campaign of mass destruction and death? In other words: you would become that which you hate, destroy what you are in a single-minded quest for vengance? Wow. That's messed up. I sure hope that America's leaders aren't as crazy as you (but I have my doubts).

[Mr Farrius]

I agree. It's just totally ironic that a nation built on freedom and people's rights is supposed to annhiliate any country that messes with it. Genocide?? Since when did Americans become Nazis? Genocide should never be a last option, or any option at all, and can never be an option. How can America preach about human rights and the erros of discrimination and racism and use genocide as a defense plan? Plain absurdity.

[KrustyKidd]

Genocide is our last defense and we will not like what we become should we be forced to use it but make no mistake, they choose the law of the jungle. They will die with it.

Just to clarify: to win the war on terror and protect the principles of freedom, democracy etc. etc. etc. it may become necessary to trample said principles in favor of a campaign of mass destruction and death? In other words: you would become that which you hate, destroy what you are in a single-minded quest for vengance? Wow. That's messed up. I sure hope that America's leaders aren't as crazy as you (but I have my doubts).

I don't understand what is so hard for you to fathom. Picture a doctor trying to remove a bullet from a patient who is uncuffed and swinging a machette. Overpower, sedate and operate. Once that's all done we can take statements and figure out what to do next.

Why you would call that vengeance rather than common sense is beyond me.

[Mr Farrius]

What's beyond common sense is the fact that genocide is actually considered a last resort. Let me ask you all this. Do you speak for the majority of Americans? If not, then I am very sure that Americans would be offended to hear such slander about the American nation.

[FastNed]

Is there any doubt that Americans will not offer their throats for halal? Is there any doubt that Americans will not go quietly into the night?

The 'choice' offered to Americans by these Islamic fanatics is: Convert to Islam; submit as our slaves; or, die.

Is there any doubt that Americans will choose "none of the above". We will live free or die.

Once again, you display your prejudice. Not one word concerning those who elected unrestricted warfare with terms only of unconditional surrender. Why am I not surprised that no mention is made of their intent to commit genocide upon Americans but, horrors - you Americans will return genocide for genocide, if that be necessary for your survival.

Get real, this is no fairy tale or Ivy Tower exercise, this is the real world. What these delusional fanatics failed to consider is that we might be more able than they to apply the law of the jungle.

If you call the tune, you pay the piper!

[nova_satori]

FastNed: Not every Muslim or Arab wants America destroyed. However, if you kill their friends and family off, they will eventually. Then you will have to kill them, which will piss off their family and friends, who you will then have to kill, which will then piss....you get the idea. Eventually, your method will atone to genocide. You seem to think that killing off one's best friend of father won't aggravate them at all.

So thus, in your view, all Muslims are supporters of terrorism? So thus, you must get rid of ALL muslims? How is that NOT genocide?

Tell that to Hitler and every other madman who began unrestricted warfare. If we are forced to conclude that our "enemy" is every believer in Islam, then so be it

So every Muslim is now like Hitler? You do understand that most, if not all of the hijackers were followers of the extremist version of Islam. They read from a book written decades of years AFTER muhammad's death. Now, how can they be believers in something that the Prophet did not preach?

It seems the right-winged posters CONDONE genocide. You would rather kill them ALL OFF then think of an alternative. That's worse then letting thousands die because you can't swallow your own pride.

I don't understand what is so hard for you to fathom. Picture a doctor trying to remove a bullet from a patient who is uncuffed and swinging a machette. Overpower, sedate and operate. Once that's all done we can take statements and figure out what to do next.

You can easily switch that around. America is swinging its military around recklessly. The terrorists are trying to bring down the government that supports the reckless use of force.

Mr Farrius has a very good point. You are considering genocide. To even THINK about using that drops you to a level lower then the most horrible, hate filled terrorist.

The 'choice' offered to Americans by these Islamic fanatics is: Convert to Islam; submit as our slaves; or, die.

You mean wahhabism. There is a very big difference between the two. Please reserach wahhabism before catergorizing Islam as the enemy.

Wy am I not surprised that no mention is made of their intent to commit genocide upon Americans but, horrors - you Americans will return genocide for genocide, if that be necessary for your survival.

Because it doesn't need to be mentioned. First of all, there are around 100,000 followers of wahhabism. There are around 1.2 BILLION followers of Islam. Now the terrorists are talking about killing around 280 Million Americans. What you crazy right-winged genocidal bent people are talking about is killing 1.2 BILLION muslims. Where the vast majority don't support the extremists.

http://www.jannah.org/popstatistics/muslim...impopworld.html

www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6596-4.cfm

[KrustyKidd]

Where the vast majority don't support the extremists.

I agree Nova. Instead they allow them to flourish and walk amongst them and do nothing to hinder their hateful work. Evil happens when good men do nothing. Apathy is the true evil. Show us where these terrible men are, allow us to come in and extract this disease from your midst.

Respose: "mmmmmmgph."

[nova_satori]

get rid of the followers of wahhabism. That will solve some problems. Then stop using expliotation. Making bono a presidential adviser would help alot too.

[FastNed]

Nova, you said:

So thus, in your view, all Muslims are supporters of terrorism? So thus, you must get rid of ALL muslims? How is that NOT genocide?

That is exactly what I did Not say!

Bluntly, the American Jury is still undecided on the question. By our words and deeds to date, it should be obvious that we are waiting further evidence before we make a judgment. But your claims that the problem is only the followers of Wahhab is obviously false. Do you claim that the Shii'a sect of Iran follow Wahhab? Islamic Terrorism flows from a larger base than the Wahhabbi's!

Islamic Fanatics choose to revert to the Law of the Jungle - they evidently believed that we were too effete and civilized to respond, like to like. That was a fatal mistake. We Americans are the oldest revolutionary movement in existence - we predate Marx, Lenin, Che and all the other so-called "Revolutionary Heros". We are the "Freedom Movement", we are the future and we will not be denied!

[Greg]

Genocide is our last defense

Genocide is never a defence FastNed, you know that. Perhaps the word you're using is abit too strong.

Although if one is to examine the strict definition of genocide closely, you'll find that genocide is the systematic and or planned extermination of a racial, ethic or political group. In this case, the American's are determined to exterminate terrorism or more accurately, Al-Qaida. Al-Qaida as a group a falls loosely into the politics group category. So in this case, FastNed is correct. The Americans are committing genocide - genocide against Al-Qaida.

However, to use the word genocide is to invoke feelings of ethic hatred and ethic cleansing, which I do not feel was the objective of FastNed's post nor the objective of the United States.

That being said, I think it's best if we avoid using terms such as genocide unless we are all willing to justify and expound the true meaning of the word.

Thanks

[Black Dog]

I don't understand what is so hard for you to fathom. Picture a doctor trying to remove a bullet from a patient who is uncuffed and swinging a machette. Overpower, sedate and operate. Once that's all done we can take statements and figure out what to do next.

Wrong analogy. FastNed's solution would have the doctor trying to remove a bullet from a patient who is uncuffed and swinging a machette put a bullet between the patient's eyes.

Once again, you display your prejudice. Not one word concerning those who elected unrestricted warfare with terms only of unconditional surrender. Why am I not surprised that no mention is made of their intent to commit genocide upon Americans but, horrors - you Americans will return genocide for genocide, if that be necessary for your survival.

You miss the point, as usual. You fail to see nothing wrong with compromising every principle that the U.S. was allegedly founded upon in your lust for blood, instead repeating the same cliches ad nauseum. I also find it rather amusing that you cite America's revolutionary past, steadfastly ignoring the fact that the men who fought for America's independence were considered terrorists in their age.

The War on Terrorism is a sham and consequently doomed to fail. Terrorism is not an enemy you can target with guns and bombs. Terrorism wil exist as long as there are men who hunger for power or who seek to change their world. Fighting terrorism through brute military force is like punching smoke: futile. All that will be accomplished wil be further hardening of hearts against America as more innocent lives (like the tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians) are lost to bolster Bush's reelection hopes. America is the globe's 800 lb gorilla and as such, will ever be a target. The task is to minimize those threats through the time-honoured and effective methods of counter-terrorism: intelligence-gathering, cooperation, law-enforcement and criminal justice. But then, such methods ultimately do little to enhance Halliburton and Lockheed Martin's bottom line, so it's easy to see why they are out of favour with the plutocrats in Washington.

[FastNed]

We, America, are at war with Islamic Fanatics who have stated their intent is to destroy America and American culture.

Kindly correct me if I am in error but they have given America three options:

(1) Convert to Islam;

(2) Submit to Islam as slaves; or,

(3) Die.

In my opinion, their actions and intent clearly meet the definition of genocide, in fact and in law.

Should we fail to send them Home for an attitude adjustment, or should other followers of Islam not control them, America's last option for dealing with these fanatics can only be described and/or expressed as one of two concepts: a "crusade" or "reciprocal genocide".

America is the victim of a "Hate Crime" of historic magnitude

and I must admit I am beginning to feel like a "Jew" - you know, that group of victims who are blamed for the evils done to them! Of late, when I run across a piece of anti-Semitic garbage, I play a little game and substitute "American" for "Jew" and guess what, the text scans. Odd that, but the speakers are the same and, as always it is the victims who are at fault! This has greatly increased my empathy for those of the Jewish faith.

Hate crimes engender "Hate" and while I believed I had a sufficient vocabulary, I do not appear to have the words to properly describe a response to a "Hate" attack without those words being castigated also , merely by their usage, as hate speech.

In my opinion, the concept of a "Crusade" contains far more evil than the concept of genocide but perhaps I see a difference which does not exist.

Perhaps the question should be what words are allowed to the victim of a "Hate" crime? Riddle me that, please, Greg.

Black Dog, your post appears to say that fanatics are free to do anything they wish so long as it is to an 800 LB gorilla. And yet again, you prattle marxist doctrine on capitalism as justification for our "victimhood".

Your comments on "lust for blood" appear to be nothing more than the old blood libel against the Jews, why am I still not surprised.