Crusading Is Noble

[Black Dog]

What part about aid and money and goods and democracy and self rule and protection from terrorists don't you get?

What part about aid and money and goods to dictators, the supression of democracy and self-rule and support for terrorists don't you get? It would be far easier to take in the arguments for the U.S. actions in the War on Terror if its proponents would at the least acknowledge that Amaerica is by no means the benevolant force it's made out to be.

Does this mean America is the greatest evil the world has ever known? No. History makes no judgements and the American Empire will be seen in a few hundred years as just another one of man's experiments (unless folks like CraigRead get their way and pull us all down to hell). It is not special, it is not unique, it is not a pinnacle of civilization.

This is a core element of the current situation: in the eyes of many of its people, America can truly do no wrong (and if it does, well, it just makes "mistakes"). This form of blind nationalism is contrary to the very ideals that are supposed to make America the bastion of freedom it claims to be. You see it every day when people are called to "support the president" in a fascistic elevation of the nation's leadership to heroic status.

As President Teddy Roosevelt said:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

The question is: do critics of the U.S.'s policies "hate America"? No. But we believe that the path America is heading down will not lead to a better world. We believe that America should lead by example, not brute force and coercion. I have higher expectations for America than I do for Osama bin Laden or any other power-mad thug. It's time the U.S.A started living up to it's own promise, rather than sinking down into the mud with its enemies.

[Craig Read]

It is time the rest of the world, hiding behind Post Modern liberal nonsense took off their skirts and high heels and joined in to help the US.

The war on terror will be long, expensive, difficult and necessary.

Time to stop free riding and moaning get engaged.

Time to stop with the fatuous nonsense of Cdn superiority - a country with no military, lower standards of living, less income, free riding drug policies, and socialised rationed health care has little to chirp about.

[Black Dog]

It is time the rest of the world, hiding behind Post Modern liberal nonsense took off their skirts and high heels and joined in to help the US.

The war on terror will be long, expensive, difficult and necessary.

Time to stop free riding and moaning get engaged.

Time to stop with the fatuous nonsense of Cdn superiority - a country with no military, lower standards of living, less income, free riding drug policies, and socialised rationed health care has little to chirp about.

Oh brother.

It's time the United States, hiding behind archaic notions of nationalism and myths of cultural superiority, took off it's blinders and earplugs and joined the rest of the world.

The war on terror will be long, expensive, difficult and, ultimately, unwinnable.

Time to stop the bull-in-a-china-shop unilateralism and get engaged.

Time to stop with the fatuous nonsense of U.S. superiority- a country with a bloated, over-subsidized military, huge gaps in standards of living, draconian and repressive drug policies and a corrupt, inefficient health care system that leaves millions without access to basic medical care has little to chirp about.

I can do this all day.

[Hugo]

I can do this all day.

What - make a fool of yourself? We noticed.

What blinders and earplugs are you talking about? You think that America should take more heed of those who decry democracy, freedom of speech and religion, freedom of association, and respect for human life and dignity? You think America should join those nations, like Canada, that punish success and excellence and reward laziness and stupidity?

You believe that America should be open to the rest of the world because you don't know anything about the rest of the world.

I might quote Al Pacino in Scent of a Woman and say, "I've been around, y'know?" I've seen a lot of the world and heard more from those who've travelled further than I. I know what goes on in other countries, and believe me, foreign travel narrows the mind wonderfully.

Leftists moan and gripe about how oppressed American women are - and this is a nation where Hillary Clinton is a senator and quite possibly a Presidential candidate - and yet you're strangely silent about Afghan girls stoned to death for daring to go to school.

You whine about American pollution and industry, but you've clearly never seen the rust belt of China, where pollution alone drops the life expectancy at least two decades below the rest of the world or even China.

You get mad that American corporations dominate the world, despite the fact that there are only two American automobile manufacturers left in existence and those under heavy pressure from Japanese and Germans, despite the fact that Japan is the world's largest creditor and investor nation and that Japan builds around half of all the ships in the world.

You decry America's social policies and backwardness compared to Holland, where perhaps 20,000 people have been euthanised against their will according to Dutch authorities, or to Sweden, where crematoria are harnessed for power generation. America's drug policies are horrible and repressive, but please, look at the average heroin addict or alcoholic and tell me what is so wonderful about applauding when human beings fall into such utter misery and indignity?

Take my blinders off, you say? You first.

[Black Dog]

What blinders and earplugs are you talking about? You think that America should take more heed of those who decry democracy, freedom of speech and religion, freedom of association, and respect for human life and dignity? You think America should join those nations, like Canada, that punish success and excellence and reward laziness and stupidity?

America should try dabbling in democracy, freedom of speech and religion, freedom of association, and respect for human life and dignity soemtime. Do you have any means of backing up your idealogically-driven drivel, or are making sweeping pronouncements the best you've got? 'cause I'd love to see how this country "punishes success and rewards...stupidity." I mean, considering th eintellectual capacity of your president, it seems that laziness and stupidity are means to acheving the highest post in the land (well, those plus a well-connected daddy). But I digress.

You believe that America should be open to the rest of the world because you don't know anything about the rest of the world.

What the (sorry, Greg) fuck do you know about my knowledge of the world?

Leftists moan and gripe about how oppressed American women are - and this is a nation where Hillary Clinton is a senator and quite possibly a Presidential candidate - and yet you're strangely silent about Afghan girls stoned to death for daring to go to school.

Ha!Groups like RAWA, Amnesty International and so forth were calling attention to the atrocities committed against women in Afghanistan long before 9-11. Oddly enough, the same right wingers who trumpeted women's rights as an excuse to undertake military action in Afghanistan were the same ones passing millions to the Taliban to keep heroin production down while turning a blind eye to huiman rights abuses. Spare me your crocodile tears for the women of that broken nation. The Taliban may be gone but women are still being treated as chattel, still subject to gang rapes, forced circumcision and more.

You whine about American pollution and industry, but you've clearly never seen the rust belt of China, where pollution alone drops the life expectancy at least two decades below the rest of the world or even China.

So, America is better than a third-world totalitarian dicttorship? Wow, way to shoot for the stars, buddy.

You get mad that American corporations dominate the world, despite the fact that there are only two American automobile manufacturers left in existence and those under heavy pressure from Japanese and Germans, despite the fact that Japan is the world's largest creditor and investor nation and that Japan builds around half of all the ships in the world.

Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are corporations; only 49 are countries (based on a comparison of corporate sales and country GDPs).

A full 5 percent of the Top 200s' combined workforce is employed by Wal-Mart, a company notorious for union-busting and widespread use of part-time workers to avoid paying benefits. The discount retail giant is the top private employer in the world, with 1,140,000 workers, more than twice as many as No. 2, DaimlerChrysler, which employs 466,938.

U.S. corporations dominate the Top 200, with 82 slots (41 percent of the total). Japanese firms are second, with only 41 slots.

Of the U.S. corporations on the list, 44 did not pay the full standard 35 percent federal corpo-rate tax rate during the period 1996-1998. Seven of the firms actually paid less than zero in federal income taxes in 1998 (because of rebates). These include: Texaco, Chevron, PepsiCo, Enron, Worldcom, McKesson and the world's biggest corporationGeneral Motors. 10. Between 1983 and 1999, the share of total sales of the Top 200 made up by service sector corporations increased from 33.8 percent to 46.7 percent. Gains were particularly evident in financial services and telecommunications sectors, in which most countries have pursued deregulation.

You decry America's social policies and backwardness compared to Holland, where perhaps 20,000 people have been euthanised against their will according to Dutch authorities, or to Sweden, where crematoria are harnessed for power generation.

And how many U.S.Americians die "against their will" because they can't afford basic medical care or access to life-saving perscription drugs? How many die of malnutrition? Besides which, where did I mention Holland? You're losing it.

America's drug policies are horrible and repressive, but please, look at the average heroin addict or alcoholic and tell me what is so wonderful about applauding when human beings fall into such utter misery and indignity?

Nice straw man. Who was "applauding...misery and indignity"? Hardly the same thing as questioning the wisdom of policies that lead to heavily armed DEA agent sroughing up old ladies in wheel chairs for smoking medicinal marijuana. Besides, alcohol is the cause of a myriad of social ills, yet is perfectly legal....

Distortions and straw men seem to be your stock in trade.

[Hugo]

'cause I'd love to see how this country "punishes success and rewards...stupidity."

Sure. The tax system. People who work hard and get paid a lot pay much more in taxes in Canada.

People who don't work and would like to collect welfare, can, indefinitely. I know 3 people, personally, who've been collecting welfare for over a decade even though they are perfectly able-bodied. There are many thousands more.

I mean, considering th eintellectual capacity of your president

First, I'm British.

Second, if you believe George Bush is a moron, how is it that a moron is able to falsify an election under the very noses of the supreme court, the media and everybody else in the country?

What the (sorry, Greg) fuck do you know about my knowledge of the world?

I know it's lacking, or else you wouldn't talk such drivel.

The Taliban may be gone but women are still being treated as chattel, still subject to gang rapes, forced circumcision and more.

Yes, and yet still people are moaning about the "plight" of American women and the desperate need for Affirmative Action and so on. Do you see what I mean?

Regarding the US companies - you are moaning about these companies at the same time that you bask in the high standard of living that they provide - the height of hypocrisy. When you've grown your own food and built your own house and car, get back to me.

And how many U.S.Americians die "against their will" because they can't afford basic medical care or access to life-saving perscription drugs? How many die of malnutrition?

Why don't you tell me, and at the same time, tell me how many Canadians who can afford it go south for healthcare or to private clinics (like Jean Chretien) because the Canadian healthcare system is terrible?

policies that lead to heavily armed DEA agent sroughing up old ladies in wheel chairs for smoking medicinal marijuana.

...

Distortions and straw men seem to be your stock in trade.

Right back at you.

[Black Dog]

People who work hard and get paid a lot pay much more in taxes in Canada.

First: there's no correlation between how much money one makes and how hard one must work. Second, I've said before that the tax system needs to be fixed so that the folks who own most of the wealth pay their share so that people who actually do work hard-small business owners, lower and middle income earners-can actually get ahead.

People who don't work and would like to collect welfare, can, indefinitely

For starters this reeks of "straw man" from miles away. I also fail to see how someone scraping $500 a month off the system constitues such agreat threat to society, especially considering that only a fraction of welfare recipients are actually "welfare bums."

First, I'm British.

So? Sounds like Bush is still your kinda boy.

Second, if you believe George Bush is a moron, how is it that a moron is able to falsify an election under the very noses of the supreme court, the media and everybody else in the country?

Uh, let's see the Supreme Court justices who ruled in his favor were apointees of his dad or Reagan, the mainstream media is owned by major corporations who also happen to give very generously to the G.O.P (example: NBC is owned by G.E., which is also the largest defense contractors in the country), while non-mainstream reporters (such as Greg Palast) have done great work on exposing the fraud of the 2000 election. It's not like we're talking big backroom conspiracy stuff: just old-fashioned partisan realpolitik where power is the only thing that matters and the ends more than justify the means.

Yes, and yet still people are moaning about the "plight" of American women and the desperate need for Affirmative Action and so on. Do you see what I mean?.

No I don't. Why can't one can call for social justice and equality for women in both Afgahnistan and the U.S.A? I guaran-damn-tee that the same groups who want affirmative action and greater gender equality here were fighting for the women of Afghanistan long befor eyou and your ilk decided to make them your cause du jour.

Regarding the US companies - you are moaning about these companies at the same time that you bask in the high standard of living that they provide - the height of hypocrisy. When you've grown your own food and built your own house and car, get back to me.

My apologies for the accident of birth that made me a white, middle-class Canadian instead of a tribesman in Sub Saharan Africa.

All things being equal, I would expect that, given your position on terrorism and radical Islam, that you are currently posting from a foxhole near Baghdad. I'm certain that's not the case. Once you get out and actually put your money where your mouth is and put your ass in the line of fire, get back to me.

Why don't you tell me, and at the same time, tell me how many Canadians who can afford it go south for healthcare or to private clinics (like Jean Chretien) because the Canadian healthcare system is terrible?

I've said before that the Canadian Health care system has problems (problems stemming from years of ideologically-based spending cuts and downsizing). But I'd much rather have our system than the State's non-system.

policies that lead to heavily armed DEA agent sroughing up old ladies in wheel chairs for smoking medicinal marijuana.

Sept. 25, 2002: DEA Raids California hospice.

Last week, DEA agents armed with automatic weapons raided a hospice on the outskirts of Santa Cruz, California, because it grew and used marijuana for its patients, most of them terminally ill. The founder and director, Valerie Corral, who uses marijuana herself to control debilitating seizures as a result of head trauma following a 1973 car accident, was taken away in her pajamas. Suzanne Pfeil, a paraplegic patient suffering from postpolio syndrome, was told to stand up and then was handcuffed in bed when she could not. All the plants were destroyed.

Link.

One last thing.

I know it's lacking, or else you wouldn't talk such drivel.

Why don't you take your assumptions, your smug superiority and your condescending attitude and shove 'em up your arse. Your clearly not as smart as you fancy yourself. If you were, you'd back up you rposition with facts instead of merely arguing by decree.

[Craig Read]

All Republicans are morons all Democrats geniuses.

Al Gore is a genius who:

-Failed out of Bible College

-Failed out of Law School

-Acquired Cs at Harvard [i studied there, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get Cs at Harvard]

-Lied about inventing the internet

Bill Clinton is a genius who:

-Perjured himself

-Allowed 9-11 to happen

-Was Impeached

-Draft Dodged, visited Russia and covered up his sympathies for Communism after he was into politics

Obviously these 2 men are glowing lights of intelligence.

Eisenhower, Reagan and Bush all of whom won wars and defended national interests are derided as dumb and mononic.

In that case give me the Morons any day over the gliberal glow boys.

[Black Dog]

Bush Jr:

-Got into two Ivy League schools soley on the basis of his family connections (his grades wouldn't have cut it)

-Dodged Vietnam by joining the "champaign division" of the ANG; subsequently went AWOL for 18 months.

-allowed 9-11 to happen

- lied to America about Iraq's WMD capabilites

- was convicted for drunk driving and public mischief and allegedly arrested for cocaine possession.

And so on.

No, not all Democrats are geniuses (I don't care for that party; they're just Republican-Lite), but I've heard farts that are more articulate than Georgie W.

[Hugo]

For starters this reeks of "straw man" from miles away. I also fail to see how someone scraping $500 a month off the system constitues such agreat threat to society, especially considering that only a fraction of welfare recipients are actually "welfare bums."

It creates a welfare trap. When people are getting minimum wage from the government for doing nothing, it removes any incentive to go get a job for minimum wage.

Second, I've said before that the tax system needs to be fixed so that the folks who own most of the wealth pay their share so that people who actually do work hard-small business owners, lower and middle income earners-can actually get ahead.

The tax system just needs to be pared back at all levels. You cannot tax the hell out of the rich because their investment drives the economy, and they can afford to move elsewhere. All you do is drive the capital out of your economy and strangle it. Similarly, you can't tax the hell out of the poor or middle-income people because it just isn't fair.

So? Sounds like Bush is still your kinda boy.

That's right. I'd leave George W Bush alone with my kids for an hour, but I wouldn't buy a used car from Bill Clinton.

Uh, let's see the Supreme Court justices who ruled in his favor were apointees of his dad or Reagan, the mainstream media is owned by major corporations who also happen to give...

Yeah, and assuming all this were true, why would Gore not fight it and instead just roll over and concede the election? And why are the rest of the Democrats not crying 'foul'?

If the election was rigged, he managed to fool everyone, including his worst enemies. Not bad for a moron.

No I don't. Why can't one can call for social justice and equality for women in both Afgahnistan and the U.S.A?

You can. Just don't pretend that American women have it even a fraction as bad as Afghan women.

Once you get out and actually put your money where your mouth is and put your ass in the line of fire, get back to me.

But I'm not the one moaning about those whose ass is in the line of fire. I respect them and I'm glad they are there. You, however, live in the comfort of big corporations even as you decry them. Hence my allegation that you are a hypocrite.

Sept. 25, 2002: DEA Raids California hospice.

This is typical, is it? Or is it a strawman? I hazard it's the latter.

One last thing from me, too. Would you rather be living in America, Afghanistan or China?

[SirRiff]

you can bitch about welfare, and i'm not a fan of lazy people getting my tax money, but Canada doesnt have the violence that comes from having poor people who become desperate. its much cheaper on a decade by decade measure to prevent the problems associated with having a desperate underclass then it is to provide basic social services. not every welfare recip is a life long leech. some maybe, most possibly, but there definately are some it helps to move on. the concept is sound we just gotta get rid of the worst leechers.

SirRiff

[nova_satori]

That's right. I'd leave George W Bush alone with my kids for an hour, but I wouldn't buy a used car from Bill Clinton.

Then you'll have kids who believe that their culture is the only one that should exist. American lives are worth more than anything else. The environment is stupid. Making money doesn't collide with ethics. Ethics are useless. Virtue is useless. And oil is king.

And you'll be missing out on a great deal on a great car.

Great! Brainwashed Kids and no car! I LOVE BUSH!!! Go USA! We rule the arrogance department!

[Hugo]

Sweeping statements and hysterical and totally unjustified viewpoints.

You are some "debater", I must say.

[nova_satori]

speak for yourself.

[Hugo]

I don't. I speak for you. 72 posts on this forum and all of them absolute garbage. Stop wasting bandwidth.

[nova_satori]

garbage because they aren't right-wing? Or because they are something you've never thought about? lol.

[Craig Read]

No because you are a narrow minded socialist, who has a simpleton's view of the world - namely the US is stupid, everyone else is good. This is foolhardy. No other nation has displayed in times past nor has the capability in times present to protect liberty through international fora, self interest and moral vision.

Canada certainly adds nothing to the debate. What does Canada stand for but to free ride and criticise US activity.

[nova_satori]

No because you are a narrow minded socialist, who has a simpleton's view of the world - namely the US is stupid, everyone else is good. This is foolhardy. No other nation has displayed in times past nor has the capability in times present to protect liberty through international fora, self interest and moral vision.

Socialist? Can you prove this?

Simpleton? Such as the right-wing, KILL THEM ALL NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE? If anything, you are the simpleton. I see the complexities in deal with the rest of the world. The right-wing would rather just shove everything aside and abandon all finesse. Thus, because I don't hold that view I am a simpleton?

The US is stupid? The country itself has no intelligence. The people yes. However, stupid being relative requires a comparison. US public tests scores from k-12 cannot even compare to the counterpart test scores from Europe and Asia. When asked to find Isreal, Afganistan and Iraq, the majority of the average americans cannot even find it on a map. Jay leno have fun with this, going out on the streets of New York, 8 out of 10 Americans did not even know their own pledge of allegiance. Many creationists in America believe that "christian science" lol, works in tandem with physics and chemistry. Now please tell me how intelligent, informed people do such things.

The average american is a babbling idiot. The few intelligent Americans are outnumbered by ignorant, arrogant fools.

International force? Such as bribery and extortion? The coalition of the willing should be renamed, coalition of the bribed the cocered.

The US's self-interest got itself into this mess. It's certainly not going to get it out.

Moral vision? When someone bombs a city, it's called terrorism, when the US does it, it's called "moral clarity."

When people kill civilians, it's called terrorism. When the US does is, it's called colateral damage. When a Arab or a Muslim fights for this freedom, it's automatically called terrorism (i've spoken with Palestines, Iranians, UAE, and one Iraqi, they all agree), when America does it to subjugate an area for its own self interest, its called freedom fighting.

Bush's moral vision was to move the scrutiny from the economy, to a war. Not liberate people. If that was true, we would have done to the Iranian people. They plight is far worse than the Iraqi peoples'. But they have less oil. HMMMMMMMMM.

[Craig Read]

Do you enjoy being so wrong ?

Less oil ? The entire infrastructure is being rebuilt, before the war Iraq was producing [most of it contra-UN sanctions] about 1.5 mbp day of oil. The amount is the same and trending now to 2 million. So much for that idea.

The Iraqi people by all objective ie. non-BBC non CBC non CNN, reports, firmly believe that their future will be better with US occupation. The fact that the Lie-beral media goes out of its way to find dissatisfaction and present all events as a negative is disingenuous. Iraqi's want freedom, a proper functioning government and media and access to their oil for themselves not for a clan that butchers, imprisons and destroys. Other Arab nations will have to follow suit. I believe that the Western Enlightenment tradition is vastly superior to the tribal, superstitious pre-modern claptrap that one finds in the Arab world.

It takes time, patience and intelligence to rebuild countries.

This is why the Lie-berals should stay out of the way.

[SirRiff]

The Iraqi people by all objective ie. non-BBC non CBC non CNN, reports, firmly believe that their future will be better with US occupation

thats a pretty strong opinion for someone who doesnt live there.

how exactly do you know that? where is your magic news source that gives you the 'truth'?

i have lived in pakistan, and i can assure you, 99.9999% of muslims in the middle east and asia dont want america there.

not to mention its just common sense they see ameircans as outsiders and the cause of thier suffering via sanctions. they want money and to be left alone. of course its probably better to have US security, but they dont care.

Sirriff

[Craig Read]

Then why is Pakistan complying with US demands ?

Where is the Arab street revolt that the Lie-berals rave about ?

Why did 2/3 of Iraqi's in a recent poll affirm US occupation ?

Why is Afghanistan slowly rebuilding itself under US control with the main problem being warlords defying Karzai and Kabul ?

India which has a huge Muslim group is now fighting terror.

Same for Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco and the Arab Emirates.

Sorry but you are wrong. Freedom is its own best advertiser.

This is why 55 % of young Arab men want to go West.