Christian Right

[Leafless]

Nocrap

You wrote- " The attack was against Americans not Christians."

The attack was against capitalism and Christians in the believe the world trade center represented the structure of ultimate power over the world primarily controlled by the U.S.

They fiqured the U.S. would fall apart after destroying these towers. I believe they compared some type of strong religious association to these towers like they have towards their extremist Islamic religion.

Terrorist are cold blooded murderers that must be hunted down and destroyed.

[JerrySeinfeld]

How is Christian's killing people different then Muslims killing people?

If your saying their religion makes them do it, then just look at all those Christian groups that kill people. I agree that Rwanda is a weak case, but Serbia is not a weak case.

There are crazies everywhere

Even Milosovic is a weak comparison. I didn't see serbs going all over the world killing people. It was restricted to one (former) country.

Muslim young men self detonate or kill in France, Denmark, England, USA. This suggests it isn't merely a localized issue, but rather a worldwide doctrine. Big difference.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Muslims are free to kill infidels because their religion teaches it. Resenment of Western countries or refusing to learn from their neighbors is a direct result of their religion! On other threads we talk about abortion, gay issues and porn. Any guess what their governments do to abortion docs, gays and pornographers in Muslim countries? In Canada and the U.S., which you seem to think is Christian, the government does nothing.

EXCELLENT POST.

[Riverwind]

Those laws were replaced a long time ago. They don't sacrifice animals anymore either.

Interesting, you admit that Christians have to be selective about what they follow fom the Bible yet you keep bringing up a single, out of context, quotation from the Quran as if it was the primary principal of Islam. Have you ever taken the time to think about how the ritual cannabilsm practiced by Christians sounds to people who have not been brought up in a Christian culture? Drinking the blood of Christ is downright disgusting if you take it out of context.

As for Ireland, again, they were not killing in obedience to biblical teaching that promised rewards in heaven. Just more garden variety hatred and racism.

This is why Muslim radicals kill as well.

Muslims are free to kill infidels because their religion teaches it. Resentment of Western countries or refusing to learn from their neighbors is a direct result of their religion!

All religions seek to control society. Even today, the Christian churches seek to stifle scientific progress and social change. The only difference between the Christian church and the Islam is the Christian church is no longer the central political institution liberal democratic countries like Canada and the US. This means the Christian church is forced onto the political sidelines and, as a result, society is able to progress both economically and socially.

Ironically, the US helped create the conditions you see in Islamic countries today but supporting despots such as the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein and the House of Suad. People turned to Islam as a way to express political opinions because it was the only avenue available in the totalitarian states they live in.

[JerrySeinfeld]

All religions seek to control society. Even today, the Christian churches seek to stifle scientific progress and social change. The only difference between the Christian church and the Islam is the Christian church is no longer the central political institution liberal democratic countries like Canada and the US.

oh and that other small difference - christians don't saw off people's heads to make a point.

[Riverwind]

oh and that other small difference - christians don't saw off people's heads to make a point.

They just permanently cripple them by shooting off their kneecaps (a common practice in northern Ireland) or just shoot them with a rifle. Is rather hypocritical to think that all Muslims should be blamed for the actions of zealots yet you insist that every 'Christian' radical that uses violance is not really a Christian.

[JerrySeinfeld]

oh and that other small difference - christians don't saw off people's heads to make a point.

They just permanently cripple them by shooting off their kneecaps (a common practice in northern Ireland) or just shoot them with a rifle. Is rather hypocritical to think that all Muslims should be blamed for the actions of zealots yet you insist that every 'Christian' radical that uses violance is not really a Christian.

Again, a localized conflict about borders. Not even close. Try again.

[JerrySeinfeld]

oh and that other small difference - christians don't saw off people's heads to make a point.

They just permanently cripple them by shooting off their kneecaps (a common practice in northern Ireland) or just shoot them with a rifle. Is rather hypocritical to think that all Muslims should be blamed for the actions of zealots yet you insist that every 'Christian' radical that uses violance is not really a Christian.

Give me an example of a Danish newspaper printing a cartoon about the Irish conflict resulting in worldwide protests by Irish people, burning of Danish embassies by "Irish Catholic" nations, boycott of danish goods, the danish newspaper editor livingunder 24 hour armed gaurd...then maybe you've got something.

[sharkman]

oh and that other small difference - christians don't saw off people's heads to make a point.

They just permanently cripple them by shooting off their kneecaps (a common practice in northern Ireland) or just shoot them with a rifle. Is rather hypocritical to think that all Muslims should be blamed for the actions of zealots yet you insist that every 'Christian' radical that uses violance is not really a Christian.

Sparhawk, you can't get around the main point, that the Koran teaches its okay to kill infidels and get a heavenly reward, while the Bible teaches that murder is wrong. The Irish were not fighting for eternal reward, but for independence from Great Britian. They did not expect to get 72 virgins for every English soldier they killed.

Muslims expect to get rewarded in Heaven for killing infidels. And this is their current belief, not as the Bible with laws from the old testament that no longer are followed. And you have no answer for how Muslims treat gays, abortionists and pornographers compared to other countries.

[Riverwind]

Sparhawk, you can't get around the main point, that the Koran teaches its okay to kill infidels and get a heavenly reward, while the Bible teaches that murder is wrong. The Irish were not fighting for eternal reward, but for independence from Great Britian. They did not expect to get 72 virgins for every English soldier they killed.

There is nothing in the Quran that says that. The passages that are the source of the misconception are simply poetic prose describing what heaven is like. The meaning of Jihad is also disputed among Islamic scholars many feel that it is not a call for violence but an internal struggle to improve one's spiritual life.

You should stop judging Islam by misquoting the Quran. Should I judge Christians because Lot tried to hand his daughters over to gang rapists and later got them pregnant (Genesis 19)?

[sharkman]

No, you should simply compare the actions of followers of the Muslim faith regarding murder in comparison with actions of Christians in regards to murder. Apparently you are unable to do that.

Why don't you bring up Sampson, Saul, Jacob, Isau, and dozens of others. The bible is full of people who made mistakes and screwed up. It still doesn't change the bible's teaching on murder vs the Koran, whether you know it or not.

[Nocrap]

What you'll hear from the left is that someone who shoots an abortion doctor is the same as someone strapping a bomb on their back and blowing up a whole bus of innocents. I don't know how they can make these comparisons with a straight face, but they do.

What about Cheryl Gallant, Pro-Life activist and MP for Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke? She compared the beheading of American contractor Nicholas Berg to the the abortions performed in Canada, saying that it 'absolutely no different'; and with a straight face.

George Bush proclaims himself a born-again Christian and makes constant references to God when he refers to America's "victory" in Iraq and soldiers are led into battle believing that they will be rewarded for their actions in heaven if they make the ultimate sacrifice. People who want to do bad things, can always twist the words in whatever good book they live by, as a way to validate their actions.

Now, for argument's sake, let's say that Bush is fundamentally Christian (I prefer fundamentally evil or 2/3 of Americans now believe fundamentally incompetent). By his own admissions and constant references to God and Jesus, we can make the argument that the coalition forces are on the side of Christianity (hypothetically) since I believe that you are looking for numbers.

As of March 17, 2006; CNN provides the latest casualties here:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

There have been 2,519 coalition deaths, 2,314 of which were Americans. Now if we add the 3,000 9/11 victims, we can hypothetically say that the Muslim world has killed 5,500 people from the Christian world. However, the Iraqi casualties to date are more than 35,000 (roughly 7 times) and of that 35,000; more than half were women and children. (I had jotted down a few weeks ago 12,000+ children with just less than half under 3 years of age and 15,000+ women)

So by your argument; Christians killed about 7 times as many Muslims as Muslims have killed Christians. And let's not forget the environmental damage that they have inflicted, which will create many more premature deaths in the years to come.

See, it's not that easy is it?

[sharkman]

Yes it is that easy. We are talking about what the bible teaches on murder vs what the Koran teaches. You, nocrap, are not.

However, to address your point, Bush is not promising a special reward in Heaven(like 72 virgins) for those who kill infidels. Muslim leaders are. Bush and the U.S. government are not in Iraq to kill non christians or force Christianity on the Iraqi population. They are there because they believe Iraq was a major base for terrorism in the world. If they are right or wrong, that is not the point here. Only that they are not over there promising U.S. citizens 72 vigins in Heaven if they kill infidels.

[Riverwind]

However, to address your point, Bush is not promising a special reward in Heaven(like 72 virgins) for those who kill infidels.

You seem to think that if you repeat something enough then it must be true. The Koran does not promise 72 virgins to people who kill. You have spliced together several completely unrelated concepts from the Koran. In one part, the Quran does describe heaven as a place where someone will receive various rewards including female companionship which sounds weird to those of us used to puritan christian teachings. In other places it talks about how people who die for their faith will go to heaven. In other places it condemns both murder and suicide. No where does it explicitly say that people who deliberately murder others or commit suicide will go to heaven.

That said, there are Muslims that have distorted the teachings of Islam and created the belief that suicide bombers will have a place in heaven. However, those distortions are not very different from what Christians have used in the past to justify everything from slavery (e.g. the curse of ham) to genocide (kill them all god will sort them out).

Islamic terrorism is a political and economic problem and not a religious one - if the political and economic motivations are addressed you will see the religious rhetoric will go away.

[JerrySeinfeld]

However, to address your point, Bush is not promising a special reward in Heaven(like 72 virgins) for those who kill infidels.

You seem to think that if you repeat something enough then it must be true. The Koran does not promise 72 virgins to people who kill. You have spliced together several completely unrelated concepts from the Koran. In one part, the Quran does describe heaven as a place where someone will receive various rewards including female companionship which sounds weird to those of us used to puritan christian teachings. In other places it talks about how people who die for their faith will go to heaven. In other places it condemns both murder and suicide. No where does it explicitly say that people who deliberately murder others or commit suicide will go to heaven.

That said, there are Muslims that have distorted the teachings of Islam and created the belief that suicide bombers will have a place in heaven. However, those distortions are not very different from what Christians have used in the past to justify everything from slavery (e.g. the curse of ham) to genocide (kill them all god will sort them out).

Islamic terrorism is a political and economic problem and not a religious one - if the political and economic motivations are addressed you will see the religious rhetoric will go away.

Get over it/ Christian don't kill infidels in the name of god and to go to heaven. Muslims do.

Whether it is specifically stated in the Koran MAY be debated, but the fact that nutjob young muslims around the world murder people expecting a reward in heaven is a fact.

Think of the young muslim man in Paris who lived along side some jews in his apartment complex. One morning he attacked a fellow tenant - a jew - stabbed him 36 times and ripped his face off with a fork. Dripping with blood going back up the stairwell he annouced "I can go to heaven now, I have killed my jew."

Keep defending it if you wish - I hope you can sleep at night.

[geoffrey]

Christian don't kill infidels in the name of god and to go to heaven.

The KKK does. Blacks have been lynched by the Christian KKK group to rid their Christian land from the devil... more than died in 9/11.

[Montgomery Burns]

Can somebody please tell me how many people fundamentalist Christians have to kill before they can be fairly compared to their fundamentalist Muslim counterparts?

Let's talk bodycounts here.

In the past 20 years, how do the two "nutjob margins" of their respective religions stack up as far as how many they've killed?

There is absolutely NO COMPARISON. Why do you think the MSM and "progressive artists" constantly mock Christians, but do everything in their power to not mock Islam? They know damn well that Christians will not kill them, but they know damn well that Muslims will kill them for mocking Islam.

Cowards. Nothing but f'ing cowards. Look at Hollywood. They still have nothing to say about filmmaker Theo Van Gogh being slaughtered in broad daylight.

Good on you for limiting it to the past 20 years. That takes away the "Crusades" argument that the Christian haters constantly bring up.

[scribblet]

It is patently evident that the Islamist aim is to establish a world Caliphate and Sharia. They do declare this as their goal but the West fails to hear them, there is no comparison to Christianity today.

Muhammad and the Qur'an, are the main source of inspiration for today's jihadists. with their path to the Muslim paradise, ar Janna, being secured only by killing and being killed for Allah. from Muhammad who was in fact the archetypal Islamic terrorist:

"I have been made victorious with terror" (Sahi Bukhari V4B52N220)

"I shall terrorise the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them, because they oppose Allah and his apostle." (Qur'an 8:12)

"Killing unbelievers is a small matter to us" ( al-Tabari IX:69)

"Paradise lies under the shade of swords" (Sahi Bukhari V4B5N73)

"The believers fight in Allah's cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed" (Qur'an 9:111)

"Muhammad said, ‘You are commanded to carry out jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam' " (Qur'an 47:4)

"I have been made victorious with terror" (Sahi Bukhari V4B52N220)

"I shall terrorise the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them, because they oppose Allah and his apostle." (Qur'an 8:12)

"Killing unbelievers is a small matter to us" ( al-Tabari IX:69)

"Paradise lies under the shade of swords" (Sahi Bukhari V4B5N73)

"The believers fight in Allah's cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed" (Qur'an 9:111)

"Muhammad said, ‘You are commanded to carry out jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam' " (Qur'an 47:4)

[geoffrey]

Don't quote the Qu'arn and religious books as evidence of their violence... the Bible isn't on your side in that argument.

Come on guys. Most Muslims just want to hang out, go to work, come home to their Muslim babettes. I will not argue that there are more crazy Muslims out there, no doubt in my mind, but to say every Muslim is compelled to be a terrorist because of their religious beliefs is not only unfounded, but brutally racist. I see no difference between making that statement and something along the lines of all Catholics will not use birth control.

Only Sith deal in absolutes...

(someone better get the joke)

[Nocrap]

Don't quote the Qu'arn and religious books as evidence of their violence... the Bible isn't on your side in that argument.

Come on guys. Most Muslims just want to hang out, go to work, come home to their Muslim babettes. I will not argue that there are more crazy Muslims out there, no doubt in my mind, but to say every Muslim is compelled to be a terrorist because of their religious beliefs is not only unfounded, but brutally racist. I see no difference between making that statement and something along the lines of all Catholics will not use birth control.

Only Sith deal in absolutes...

(someone better get the joke)

I agree with Geoffrey. We can't call all Muslims terrorists, or even the vast majority of Muslims terrorists. Most killing is political, on both sides.

For argument's sake it was believed that Tim McVeigh belonged to the 'Christian Identity' a racist Christian (and I use the term very lightly) Right group. Whether he did or didn't, this group certainly praised his actions, and shows what can happen when you tap into the dark side of any religion. (I believe this was the meaning of the Sith comment when the rogue Jedi believed that true power of the Force lay not through contemplation and passivity and only by tapping its dark side could its true potential be gained.)

I'm not a Trekkie but looked it up, and actually it is a very astute comparison.

[scribblet]

Don't quote the Qu'arn and religious books as evidence of their violence... the Bible isn't on your side in that argument.

Come on guys. Most Muslims just want to hang out, go to work, come home to their Muslim babettes. I will not argue that there are more crazy Muslims out there, no doubt in my mind, but to say every Muslim is compelled to be a terrorist because of their religious beliefs is not only unfounded, but brutally racist. I see no difference between making that statement and something along the lines of all Catholics will not use birth control.

Only Sith deal in absolutes...

(someone better get the joke)

I would agree that the majority of muslims are not terrorists or radical Islamists, but if only 10% (a figure I read somewhere) are, thats one h..l of a lot of dangerous radicals who wish to do the west harm).

Today, radical Islamism is a threat to our way of life, while Christian fundamentalism radical or otherwise is no threat. I don't consider western Christian fundamentalists a threat in any way, as we have a democratic system and supreme courts to maintain our democracy and constitutions. Either way, Christians are not intent on imposing theological law, granted they would like to outlaw abortion but these issues are handled by the courts and government.

From Daniel Pipes: The hardest thing for Westerners to understand is not that a war with militant Islam is underway but that the nature of the enemy's ultimate goal. That goal is to apply the Islamic law (the Shari‘a) globally. In U.S. terms, it intends to replace the Constitution with the Qur'an.

For a 'religion of peace' this isn't so peaceful, don't try to convert

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188364,00.html

Afghan Man Faces Death for Allegedly Converting to Christianity

KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said Sunday.

The defendant, Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family went to the police and accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told the Associated Press in an interview. Such a conversion would violate the country's Islamic laws.

[Nocrap]

Don't quote the Qu'arn and religious books as evidence of their violence... the Bible isn't on your side in that argument.

Come on guys. Most Muslims just want to hang out, go to work, come home to their Muslim babettes. I will not argue that there are more crazy Muslims out there, no doubt in my mind, but to say every Muslim is compelled to be a terrorist because of their religious beliefs is not only unfounded, but brutally racist. I see no difference between making that statement and something along the lines of all Catholics will not use birth control.

Only Sith deal in absolutes...

(someone better get the joke)

I would agree that the majority of muslims are not terrorists or radical Islamists, but if only 10% (a figure I read somewhere) are, thats one h..l of a lot of dangerous radicals who wish to do the west harm).

Today, radical Islamism is a threat to our way of life, while Christian fundamentalism radical or otherwise is no threat. I don't consider western Christian fundamentalists a threat in any way, as we have a democratic system and supreme courts to maintain our democracy and constitutions. Either way, Christians are not intent on imposing theological law, granted they would like to outlaw abortion but these issues are handled by the courts and government.

From Daniel Pipes: The hardest thing for Westerners to understand is not that a war with militant Islam is underway but that the nature of the enemy's ultimate goal. That goal is to apply the Islamic law (the Shari‘a) globally. In U.S. terms, it intends to replace the Constitution with the Qur'an.

For a 'religion of peace' this isn't so peaceful, don't try to convert

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188364,00.html

Afghan Man Faces Death for Allegedly Converting to Christianity

KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said Sunday.

The defendant, Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family went to the police and accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told the Associated Press in an interview. Such a conversion would violate the country's Islamic laws.

"From Daniel Pipes: The hardest thing for Westerners to understand is not that a war with militant Islam is underway but that the nature of the enemy's ultimate goal. That goal is to apply the Islamic law (the Shari‘a) globally. In U.S. terms, it intends to replace the Constitution with the Qur'an.'" as posted by Scriblett

What we may not realize is that for every Christian who believes that the Islam world is out to convert the west, there are thousands of Islams who believe that the West wants to convert them to Christianity, and it is not without merit.

Case in Point - Franklin Graham, president of the evangelical relief organization called Samaritan's Purse , and close friend of the Bush family. During the Gulf War Samaritan's Purse sent over 30,000 bibles in the Arabic language to encourage the soldiers to pick up the crusade. From their website - Graham was later "touched most deeply" by a letter from an A-10 Thunderbolt "tank-killer" pilot. "Just two weeks earlier I had been trying to kill those guys," the pilot told Graham. "Then I found myself in an army hospital talking with an Iraqi POW. I gave him the Arabic New Testament."

When Saudis and US General Norman Schwartzkopf, got wind of it, they confiscated the bibles and other Evangelical literature, though apparently it only fueled their passions and more bibles were sent.

Samaritans Purse is now back in Iraq and the Muslims are reminded of Franklin Graham's comments when he publicly branded Islam "a very evil and wicked religion." A British Muslim magazine responded to Graham's plans by writing, "For the few remaining Muslims who doubted the crusading nature of the coalition forces, the final blow came last week."

There is no denying that they do a lot of good, but despite what Graham says, there are potentially damaging strings. From their website: "We are first a Christian organization and second an aid organization. We can't really separate the two."

Currently in Iraq, an evangelical chaplain by the name of Josh Llano also shows why Islamic groups distrust their motives. At Camp Bushmaster near Najaf, he exploited a water shortage with a 500-gallon pool of clean, cool water under his control. He told a reporter: "It's simple...they want water. I have it, as long as

they agree to get baptized."

I read an excellent quote a while back, when a Republican senator was being questioned. He was reproached with : "Sir, you put your hand on the bible and swore to uphold the constitution - you did not place your hand on the constitution and swear to uphold the bible".

If you believe this is a Holy War, then there are just as many Christian Crusadors as their are Muslim Fundamentalists.

[scribblet]

Don't quote the Qu'arn and religious books as evidence of their violence... the Bible isn't on your side in that argument.

If you believe this is a Holy War, then there are just as many Christian Crusadors as their are Muslim Fundamentalists.

I disagree with your last statement, there are far more radical Islamists than Christian radicals, I believe there is no comparison today to the radical Islamist movement with Christian fundamentalism. No one is calling them Crusades either as this is not a religious war, it is a class of culture and civilizations. One only need to read about Europe and problems there to know what could lie ahead for North America.

Anyone who goes into a Muslim country to try to convert Muslims literally takes their life in their hands, very stupid. At least here, no one is going to kill you for trying to convert someone, with the blessings of the government. Heck, the Jehova Witnesses would be in trouble for sure.

Even the G and M has a poll today which leads me to believe that people are starting to wake up and recognize the issues.

As the Brits, Ozzies, French and Dutch what they think especially the Brits. How their gov't handles their situation now will shape the future for them:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/4171950.stm

Globe Poll:

Is it time for Canada to abandon its multiculturalism policy and insist that immigrants adopt Canadian cultural values?

[geoffrey]

Is it time for Canada to abandon its multiculturalism policy and insist that immigrants adopt Canadian cultural values?

Absolutely.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Is it time for Canada to abandon its multiculturalism policy and insist that immigrants adopt Canadian cultural values?

Absolutely.

no question. thats the whole point of my posts about muslims. multiculturalism only works when ALL participant groups are tolerant. when you include one INTOLERANT group (muslims) then it falls apart.

ask even the moderate muslims how they feelabout gay marriage, womens rights, abortion....