The Right Wing Needs To Grow Up!

[Mr Farrius]

Anything that prevents a race of people from having equal opportunity in everything is RACISM.

Exactly. That's why AA is needed. Fact is, minorities just don't get equal opportunity. You don't think if much more of them were exposed to such opportunities that much more of them would take advantage of them?

[Hugo]

Fact is, minorities just don't get equal opportunity.

And AA will continue to assure that it is so. It creates a culture where ethnic differences are emphasised and where different treatment based on skin colour is lauded. It generates an atmosphere where it's assumed that ethnic minorities need a helping hand because they just aren't as able as whites.

AA is racist and it perpetuates racism. That's all there is to it.

[westcoast99]

Racism is horrible, anything that leads to it being less prevalent is a plus.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Gugsy

[FastNed]

Sweet Jebus, Black Dog, you think money for education is a significant causative factor in educational results from public schools? Think again and hit the google button!

Five minutes on the net will disprove this shibboleth which has been the mantra of educational unions for forty some years. We have thrown money at public education for all these years responding to the 'complaint of the day' - smaller classes, better pay for teachers, Head Start, and on and on - with pathetic results. The more we give to the educational establishment in K-12, the poorer the results. I forget where I saw it but it has stuck in my mind: "Public Schools are to Education as Prisons are to Housing". I believe it!

Washington, D.C. has the unique distinction of having the highest per pupil cost (just under $10,000) and the worst public schools in the Nation. And this has been this way for year after year.

It's informative that in the most educationally blighted areas of America, private Catholic schools, working with the exact same disadvantaged children with less than half the per pupil cost have vastly superior results. This has little to do with religion or funding and everything to do with a focus on traditional reading, writing and arithmetic plus rigid rules of decorum. This together with the lack of "Racial Politics" (an American curse) gives the kids fortunate enough to find a seat there what should be the right of every kid, a sound basic education which is the foundation for advancement for everyone, regardless of race.

You comment that the U.S. Educational system underfunds schools for blacks and hispanics and the U.S. Justice system targets them for prosecution and that they are denied employment opportunities for racial reasons. There are a number of things incorrect about your statements - each of these represents a real problem but to attribute them to racism (residual or otherwise) is to allow yourself to be led astray by those who make a very rich living by the politics of racial hate.

If funding would solve this educational problem, it would be long gone! Since 1964 America has spent zillions following the suggestions of the N.E.A. and the racial lobbies with p1ss poor results. In Vegas they call it double up and win - sucker! Spending more on a loosing system only increases your losses, you get a more expensive failure! America doesn't have a problem with poor political representation of minorities, it has a problem with too damn many of them - many of whom have discovered there is gold in them hills and who have made a fortune playing racial hate politics.

One of the largest criminal problems of America is Black on Black crime - the majority of the prison population is there for exactly this reason. The black punk who mugs an elderly woman for her social security check (and breaks her hip in the process) belongs in jail and deserves to be there! Inter-racial crimes account for a very small proportion of the 'racial' population of American prisons. I concur that the criminal penalties for "Crack" possession have a disproportionate effect on blacks when compared to criminal possession of cocaine by whites but if you research the legislative process, you will discover those who led the fight for imposition of these severe penalties were in fact the minority members! They above all others witnessed the destruction this was causing in their communities.

Employment is simple - it's education, education, education! Over the years, I have been acquainted with a number of blacks educated in the Caribbean - guess what, their employment in America doesn't track with discrimination based upon their race. They come from educational systems which adhere to traditional methods and values and candidly, a number of them spoke better English than I. Would that we could have the Barbados Educational system take over the Washington, D.C. School System - then we would see some improvement.

I believe Gugsy and Hugo have the better view and believe the only solution is to turn away from the politics of race and demand educational performance from the system. The public school system is on life support and unless it changes, and soon, it's time for euthanasia.

[Mr Farrius]

If I ran a business, and a white man and a black man both applied for a job, I would look at their qualifications. If they're qualifications were the same, I would then look at character.

It would be the person best suited to the job that would be chosen, without skin colour ever being a factor.

Hey! If only things could be like this who in this large country would need AA? That statement has been overused, and certainly doesn't reflect reality. Unfortunately Gugsy, that's good for you, but not a lot of other supervisors or managers reflect your views. Take for instance some white dominated American companies. Abercrombie and Fitch. Did you hear about its flagrant insult to asians? "Two wongs don't make a white" I believe was the atrocious remark on one of their t-shirts. You think that an asian person in this case could apply and get a job in this company, regardless of his or her skills? Get real. AA doesn't just apply to colleges, it applies to the workplace. Having racial connections and ties gets you farther than your skills and brain. With the way you Americans tend to hate Canadians, could I even get a job in the States?? Chances are pretty slim.

[Mr Farrius]

It generates an atmosphere where it's assumed that ethnic minorities need a helping hand because they just aren't as able as whites.

And you call AA racism? You've just called minorities stupid, Hugo.

[theWatcher]

AA can go to far though. I don't think it is right to be prejudiced against the majority now, to make up for past injustices to minorities.

For example, if your a white male forget about applying for the RCMP. Minorities only please.

A fair society would make sure the best person got the job, not the best minority.

You'll know when it has gone to far when they drop testing from the schools completely. Right now there are claims that certain minorities have been disadvantaged through society and shouldn't have to write tests.

And failing tests is bad for students self esteem and shouldn't happen anymore. Check your kids report cards and see if it is possible for them to get an "F" grade. You'll find the legend on the back of the report card.

[Hugo]

You've just called minorities stupid, Hugo.

No, I didn't, and I'd be careful what libel you spread around in a monitored public forum.

[RB]

aa should not subsititute or deviate from its main intension to promote freeness from unintended discrimination

if you DENY there are groups "demographic" groups that have been socially disadvantaged you continue to live in your ideal concept of what is and therefore is

these are some of the groups that are identified by HRDC as being at a social disadvantage

- visiable minority

- youths

- over 45

- single parent (both female and male)

- disability

- women

disadvantage of equality in the workplace include:

- inequality in hiring sexes

- not prepared to hire disabled

- wage discrepancies

- training and development

- career advancement

- no aa policies

i don't need to go on - these are REAL issues that must be addressed however subtle they are

i have had the opportunity to work with folks from the west indies - and do confirm that it might be the education that have worked for them to "fit in" which is in fact based on the British educational systems for those then colonies, but a majority the folks do "fit-in" and do well for themselves. i have also observed a culture difference, they are humble, more flexiable, a readiness, take charge of my life attitude, different mentality from say those that originate from other countries say sri lankans who appears to be haughty in all it glory - i don't intend on country bashing, this is just a shared experience

[FastNed]

Mr Farrius, you said:

With the way you Americans tend to hate Canadians

You do hate speech quite well, that is when you are not busy libeling someone.

[Craig Read]

Americans don't even think of Canadians and why should they.

Trade between Chicago-New York is greater than the cross border US-Canada trade.

The Chicagoland area has a GDP the size of Canada's.

Not one Canadian i know can name the Governor of NY State. But what passes for Canadian comedy is some arse like Rick Mercer with a microphone in NYC trying to find out if people know who the PM of Canada is. Wow that is comedy for you, Canadian style. What a laugh !

Maybe some witless American comic can do the same in Toronto and ask people to name the Governors of Cali, Illinois or NY, all of which have more economic and even military relevance than Canada.

Maybe people living in Toronto should know something about their border state neighbours since 2/3 of Toronto's trade is with the US ?

Or is profound ignorance an American only trait ? I doubt it. Not when i hear some sanctimonious nitwit interviewed on the streets of Toronto about Bush's speech last night stating that the US should pull itself out of its own mess.

Great analysis genius. The fight for freedom is being born almost soley on US backs and money, and this dork offers nothing but the usual anti-American palaver.

And this is broadcast as 'news'.

Why should the US care about such a country with such a pathetic 40 year history of cowardice, military decomposition and virulent anti-american racism ?

The US is protecting our sorry asses for Christ sake, maybe it is time to help them and ourselves.

Then again, Hitler was 'a man we can do business with' and manage.

Er yeah right on.

[KrustyKidd]

Can anybody out there two cities in South Dakota? How about Montana? What is the capital of Belize? If you don't know the answer these people who live there could say that you are arrogant and know nothing. I wonder if anybody knows what the Mexican city on the other side of Laredo Texas is called. Probably not as why should they. Same as why an American who has no business in Canada (98% of the US population or more) would need to know what city is our capital. Why should they? It's more our air of superiority at work more than an American one.

Many here think that a disproportionate amount of people on this planet watch our every move wondering what we will do next. The French watch the Germans and they watch the US. Luxumborg is watching France and Belgium is watching Luxumborg. Mexico watches the states so who would care what we do? To many on other continents they don't even know we have a large population or a robust economy. They think igloos and dog sleds not even aware that we have a military. I would imagine this is due to the conspicuous lack of soldiers in trouble spots where one would expect to see a Canadian soldier. It does however show that they are smarter than the average Canadian though as a Canadian thinks we have enough soldiers to be everwhere.

[dnsfurlan]

Unfortunately, I think Canada has become virtually irrelevant on the international scene. The Americans think we're a joke. The Europeans ignore us even when we repeat their sentiments of American resentment.

It wasn't always this way. Canada used to matter. Now, the burning issue of the day is Gay Marriage.

At the end of World War II, we had the fifth largest army in the world, and one of the most dynamic economies in the West.

Now? We leave jeeps at the side of the road in Afghanistan and sustain our economy by selling cheap goods in Canadian dollars to a country we like trashing every chance we get.

How did it get like this?

[Mr Farrius]

I apologize if what I stated was libel in any way. Looking over all the posts in this topic, shamefully I believe that one reason Canada is supposedly not as "great" as the U.S. is because its citizens don't really care about Canada. It is purely nauseating when citizens of a country do not care, or condemn it's own nation. You conservatives always complain that liberals do not care or respect their country. Yet here I find Canadian conservatives who hate their country. Pathetic. What's also pathetic is how Canadian conservatives fawn the U.S. and wear a facade of an American. No wonder Americans say our country is in a mess right now. If you don't like your country, I say you should renounce your citizenship and get the hell out.

KK and Mr Read, you both commented on the ignorance of Canadians. Excuse me, but Canadians at the very least know the capital of our country, unlike a large portion of young American citizens according to a reality show. Hm, makes you wonder where the education budget is really going. Also not to mention that America has one of the lowest education rankings in the world and the average citizen is appallingly ignorant and stupid.

[dnsfurlan]

You conservatives always complain that liberals do not care or respect their country. Yet here I find Canadian conservatives who hate their country. Pathetic. What's also pathetic is how Canadian conservatives fawn the U.S. and wear a facade of an American. No wonder Americans say our country is in a mess right now. If you don't like your country, I say you should renounce your citizenship and get the hell out.

What Canadian conservatives are you talking about that hate our country? Just because we don't like what's happened to it doesn't mean we still don't love it. And who is fawning over the U.S.? You can admire certain things about another country, even envy it, without fawning over it, can't you? And don't tell me to get the hell out!

America has one of the lowest education rankings in the world and the average citizen is appallingly ignorant and stupid.

Tell me how this isn't hate speech?

On the one hand you claim conservativse fawn over Americans, yet here you are displaying the kind of hatred toward America that is common on the Left in this country.

Since it is the Left that is always preaching to the rest of us about nuance, let me try to explain a bit of nuance to you.

You can love your country and criticize it. But unlike the Left, especially in the States, that wants to apologize for the success of their country, conservatives want to see their country be as strong and healthy as possible. People on the Left seem to love their countries when they are weak and obliging to dictators. Conservatives still love their country even with all of the problems.

[Guest The Pope]

Talking with some on the right, I get some pretty clear impressions

first of all, a single "right" and "wrong" defnition, either given by the bible, or what they think, that is blanketed on the world. if you think something is right, but they think it's wrong, then they are right, and you (depending on the bible) are going to hell to burn for ever and ever and ever.

next, is the simplifacation of things in the family unit. Some right wingers, though not all, would want a family to stay togethor, for the sake of a family staying togethor, no matter if someone is being abused or not.

also, is another simplifacation of economics. Capatilisim is the easiest way to make money, but not nesacarly the best.

I was thinking about that... then realized... Kids look at the world this way too. black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. simple. they dont have mature minds yet.

Most of the smarter people on earth (einstien, hawking, edison) were left leaning... perhaps right wingers just need to grow up? perhaps...

Right wingers have their different ways of thinking, i know. But although you say Right Wingers should grow up, don't forget that we too are strong people.

heh, but Right Wingers are more business type people. Lots of the Conservatives say that they will run things in a more business type way. Which is some ways are not bad, but in other can be not the greatest. Anyways, Conservatives as i said, have their own way of thinking, saying they should grow up..well i don't know...

[Mr. Chater]

yes, we do have our ways of thinking, thought critisising is not the best thing to do. if you don't like the way we work, thats ok for you.

[Mr Farrius]

America has one of the lowest education rankings in the world and the average citizen is appallingly ignorant and stupid.

Tell me how this isn't hate speech?

Let me quote some of your fellow conservative statements on the ignorance of Canadians:

Craig Read-

Maybe some witless American comic can do the same in Toronto and ask people to name the Governors of Cali, Illinois or NY, all of which have more economic and even military relevance than Canada.

Maybe people living in Toronto should know something about their border state neighbours since 2/3 of Toronto's trade is with the US ?

Why should the US care about such a country with such a pathetic 40 year history of cowardice, military decomposition and virulent anti-american racism ?

Krusty Kidd-

It does however show that they are smarter than the average Canadian though as a Canadian thinks we have enough soldiers to be everwhere.

Tell me how this isn't hate speech?

[Hugo]

Oh, grow up. Shouting "racist" at everyone who disagrees with you isn't going to prove your point.

The fact of the matter is that AA itself is racist. It subscribes to the idea that people of different skin colour are so different in nature and ability as to need special treatment. To argue that AA is needed to counterbalance supposed institutional racism is basically arguing that two wrongs make a right. Since we have institutional racism, we'd better have institutional reverse-racism as some kind of counterweight.

Surely the only real solution would be to try to build a society where people are valued for merit and ability, and prized as individuals, rather than lumped into any kind of ethnic category and pre-judged for better or worse?

[Ronda]

i believe regarding wealth and education with a conclusive view that the financially equipt child had done better than other students, and the geographical areas of where the students live supports their social structure and mix

Ok. And the thing that grabs you is that it must be related to racism and inequal opportunity?? You seriously don't think there could be a host of other reasons why kids growing up poor or in worse neighbourhoods do not go into post secondary education in the same numbers as their well off counterparts?? Maybe peer pressure? Maybe drug or alcohol issues or other social problems? Attitude problems caused by or excaberated by rough upbringing?

You actually think that the study you cited proves conclusively that our country's policies must be racist? That all kids are the same and have the same drive, ambition and ability but our racist policies favour white rich people? I think you see what you want to see.

You don't think if much more of them[minorities] were exposed to such opportunities that much more of them would take advantage of them?

I don't think so. I think that many kids, minority race or not, that come from broken homes and poor families do not take advantage of "opportunities". Many times what looks like a good opportunity to a kid that's been raised in a nice stable family seems like a drag to a kid who's been raised in difficult circumstances - like college for example. The fact that the majority of poor families are minorities is another million dollar study waiting to happen, I suppose. However, given the incredible amount of wealthy, powerful minorities that exist, I don't think that racial discrimination is the dominant factor.

Abercrombie and Fitch was mentioned for it's "racist" policies. I had just read an article on that which I will post here for those who care to read it. Something similar that I recently experienced (to give you all the jist of what the article is about) was a meal at Mandarin in Toronto. Every single solitary employee in that restaurant was asian. All of them. Is it racism?

"Abercrombie & Fitch, a chain that some say markets a ''classic American look,'' faces a lawsuit, filed by a group of ''civil rights organizations,'' aided by a law firm that specializes in ''anti-discrimination cases.''

Why? The clothier allegedly suddenly either fired or demoted Hispanic and Asian floor salespersons in favor of women possessing this so-called ''all-American look'' -- presumably blonde surfer types. (Note: A friend recently visited an Abercrombie & Fitch store and noted at least two Asian saleswomen.)

Abercrombie & Fitch, according to the lawsuit, suddenly terminated an Asian-American floor saleswoman, with three years experience, longer than any other employee in their Costa Mesa, Calif., store. Similarly, management allegedly asked Hispanic workers to either accept non-visible positions, such as stock clerk, or to leave the company altogether.

According to an attorney for the plaintiffs, ''Through means both subtle and direct, Abercrombie has consistently reinforced to its store managers that they must recruit and maintain an overwhelmingly white workforce. The company has systematically cultivated an all-white ''A&F Look'' and then faulted Latino, African American, and Asian American applicants, potential recruits and employees for failing to fit this racially exclusive image.'' The plaintiffs further claim that Abercrombie & Fitch ''direct that minority Brand Representatives (salespersons) be fired, moved to a stockroom or overnight shift or have their hours 'zeroed out,' which is the equivalent of termination.'' One plaintiff said, ''Abercrombie's corporate representatives came to our store on an inspection tour, pointed to a picture of a white male model and told the manager that he needed to make the store 'look more like this.' Within two weeks, five Asian American employees, including me, were terminated and an African American Brand Representative was transferred to the night shift at a different store. The store then hired about five white Brand Representatives to replace us.''

Let's analyze this.

A popular Los Angeles Thai restaurant features an all-Thai, female waitressing staff. The restaurant, part of a chain, hires Thai women, some relatives of the owners, but many outside the founding and operating family circle. Meanwhile, Black Entertainment Television hires black hosts, black news anchors, and plays predominantly all black videos. And, on a cable news/talk TV show, the host featured a debate on abortion between two . . . supermodels, one taking the ''pro-life,'' the other the ''pro-choice'' position. Supermodels? As a friend and successful Hollywood writer recently put it, ''On television, people don't like to watch unattractive people.'' Somebody, quick--draft a law to prevent a producer from selecting less-than-expert guests who possess photogenic faces.

Yet, though a private organization, Abercrombie & Fitch face government laws preventing it from determining how, for ill or for good, to best meet its perceived marketing niche. Never mind that customers, employees and prospective employees who feel ''discriminated against'' can refuse to patronize an establishment that refuses to hire those who ''look like us.''

At least one of the un-hired applicants found work at Banana Republic, another clothing establishment that, according to him, ''has almost all minorities working there.'' Does Banana Republic's sales staff result from laws pressuring companies to seek a ''diverse work force,'' or because Banana Republic's marketing niche seeks a ''diverse'' clientele, or because they simply hired based on their perceived quality of the applicant? In either case, a private business ought to have the right to hire and fire as it pleases, just as employees may quit and customers may refuse to patronize the store.

My father, for nearly 40 years, ran a cafe in a heavily Hispanic area in Los Angeles. He found, however, by limiting hiring to non-Spanish speakers, he scared off clientele unable to speak English, and, thus, business suffered. He eventually hired bilingual Latinas, providing comfort to a large segment of his clientele, and watched his business increase.

My father worked like a dog, waking up at 4:30 in the morning, to open at 6:00, with his hours from 6:30 to 2:30, and then spent several hours after closing, cleaning, and prepping for the next day. The government never knocked on his door to inquire about his lack of employee ''diversity.'' But, it appears, a large business such as Abercrombie & Fitch must live in fear of the federal and state ''anti-discrimination'' police.

Rosa Parks, and others in the civil rights movement, quite properly objected to discrimination by government, in Parks' case, a municipal, tax-supported bus company. This includes, by the way, public institutions like University of Michigan. Yet, the Supreme Court, in a ''split decision,'' still allows schools to take race in consideration as a factor in admissions.

As for Abercrombie & Fitch's alleged motive to fire certain employees, the solution remains a vibrant, thriving, low-tax, low-regulated economy to provide choices and options for workers. Also, Abercrombie & Fitch's hiring practices perhaps create entrepreneurial opportunities for others to cater to the ''offended'' clientele.

We have a word for this. We call it capitalism."

[dnsfurlan]

QUOTE (dnsfurlan @ Sep 8 2003, 12:45 PM)

QUOTE 

America has one of the lowest education rankings in the world and the average citizen is appallingly ignorant and stupid. 

Tell me how this isn't hate speech?

Let me quote some of your fellow conservative statements on the ignorance of Canadians:

Craig Read- QUOTE 

Maybe some witless American comic can do the same in Toronto and ask people to name the Governors of Cali, Illinois or NY, all of which have more economic and even military relevance than Canada.

Maybe people living in Toronto should know something about their border state neighbours since 2/3 of Toronto's trade is with the US ?

Why should the US care about such a country with such a pathetic 40 year history of cowardice, military decomposition and virulent anti-american racism ?

Krusty Kidd- QUOTE 

It does however show that they are smarter than the average Canadian though as a Canadian thinks we have enough soldiers to be everwhere.

Tell me how this isn't hate speech?

Mr. Farrius,

I absolutely don't understand your logic.

Is your answer to perceived hate speech spewing some of your own variety in return?

Calling Americans ignorant and stupid I think is plain hateful. You still haven't defended yourself.

Didn't you also tell us to get the hell out of our own country?

Its easy for those in glass houses to throw stones, I guess.

[djpark121]

Mr Farrius never backs up anything he says. I say we disregard his statements.

[Mr Farrius]

Point is, the average Canadian isn't as dumb as the average American citizen. I didn't base my assertions on feelings or enmity towards the U.S. I do have support for what I say. First the average American is pretty much mostly the lower-class, as the lower-class makes up most of the American population. They are ignorant. In a reality show searching for some of America's most talented youth, ironically many contestants said that Sacramento, or New York was the capital of the United States.

The average Canadian is definitely not as ignorant as the average American. This is a fact, and not an expression of hate.

[Greg]

Point is, the average Canadian isn't as dumb as the average American citizen.

They are ignorant. In a reality show searching for some of America's most talented youth, ironically many contestants said that Sacramento, or New York was the capital of the United States.

That quite possibly is the stupidest thing I've read in a long time. I'm not sure whether I should delete that post or leave it up so others can have a laugh.

Farrius, your ignorant statements are growing old and are becoming increasingly disruptive. I would suggest you tone down your comments or find somewhere else to discuss the issues.

[Hugo]

Do you have any proof, apart from your "reality shows" that you claim to watch?

It's impossible to prove any education level with definitive numbers anyway. That's why your point is so indefensible. IQ is unrelated to culture or to formal education, which is itself very varied in quality. On this very forum there are some who claim to have a univerisity degree or to be working towards one and yet cannot write a coherent paragraph in passable English.

I expect that your derision for American geographical knowledge comes from Canadian "comedy" such as the execrable "This Hour has 22 Minutes", where Rick Mercer asks probably 100 Americans what their state capital is and when 2 don't know, he shows them alone on TV as an illustration of American stupidity. Or where he says to then-presidential candidate George W Bush, "Canadian Prime Minister [mumbling]Jean Poutine[stop mumbling] says you are the man to lead the free world. Is this endorsement important?" while 200 cameras are clicking in his face and as many reporters shouting questions at him, and then laughs because he failed to spot the mumbled error. Real funny Rick, why don't you try working for a living rather than making crap comedy at taxpayer expense?