Spike22 Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 How can we even know what direction the policy will take. OK they have maintained the status quo in Afganerstan big woop. What exactly are we supposed to feel proud about? The CP do not have the funds they need for their overambitious program and with the tax cuts they are proposing. (I expect more hidden, pay as you go [or is that pay through nose] services to pay for all of this) Strategic Airlift $8 SAR aircraft replacement $4+ B Bases in the North ?!? Fixing the GD subs we got hosed on [never ending] Keeping our few fighters in the air $1 +B Aurora Upgrade Program $1.5+B Infrastucture upgrades to fix years of neglect [who the hell knows] Get rid of military slum housing AKA private married quarters and providing all military personnel a wage for 2006 so they can buy a s house - $1.5B est Polititians and their ass kissing generals/public servants that don't have a clue other than spout off retoric they haven't a smick - Priceless. For everything else there are dum-as-dirt polititians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksey Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 While you may be right in the difficulties of the situation, do we not have some obligation as a richer/more powerful nation to aid those citizens towards freedom/democracy? Is it not against the principles of democracy to let one area of the world suffer in oppression while we enjoy freedom? I feel like we have an obligation to help the 3rd world to gain democratic institutions and civil freedoms. That's a nice, liberal-sounding notion. But realistically, what can we do? Building a modern, democratic society out of the rubble would require an enormous commitment of money, time and resources, certainly a greater commitment than anyone invloved would be prepared to put forward. So while the idea sounds nice, it's doomed to failure. Then what is the right thing to do? Let them go back to what was there and let terrorism thrive there once again forcing us to go back in and knock the crap out of them again in ten years? Its one thing to keep decrying a methodology, but do you actually have something better to offer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PocketRocket Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 But former PMPM told us that the Palestinian (displaced Arab) Authority were our friends... With friends like this, who needs enemas??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixer1 Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Out of all the countries in the middle east, Afghanistan is the one country that probably has the biggest chance of being reformed into a democracy. While it will never be a christian based democracy, it will be more of a muslim hybrid based. The reason for it being ready where others are not, is the fact that they have been ravaged by wars and invading armies for decades, and through all of this they have still managed, to survive as a people. They have so little left to lose that they will welcome, any path that allows them to gain back their own lands and once again develope some sort of community that is not based on who has the biggest weapons. Yes it will not be a state where everything is like our own. It would be nice to see some sort of freedom for women, and better treatment of them. Yes ideally women would be equall, but for now I would just like to see a move where women are not property of men, and they should have the same rights to education etc. If that can be achieved then it will not be long before women will be equal. So for all those who just seem to always disagree with all things in the middle east, just what would your plan be? It would be nice to see people giving ideas instead of just always saying it can not be done. This is a country where it has been beaten down so far that they really have nothing more to lose, but they also seem to be willing to give many new things a try. So it is a clean slate so to speak. How would you try and fill in the space and the lay of the land? How would you go about doing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Then what is the right thing to do? Let them go back to what was there and let terrorism thrive there once again forcing us to go back in and knock the crap out of them again in ten years? I'd take issue with the notion that terrorism thrived in Afghanistan. Certainly Al Qaeda was based there for a time, but that organization was a Saudi/Pakistani creation (and honestly, I stil have my doubts if they were to blame for 9-11, but that's another story). In other words "fixing" Afghanistan (if such a thing is possible, which I maintain its not) doesn't address the real causes of terrorism and the radical ideology it springs from. No, when it comes to Afghnaistan the people there are content to be left alone, to kick the shit out of each other as they have done for centuries. Its one thing to keep decrying a methodology, but do you actually have something better to offer? Something better than a strategy guaranteed to fail? As far as I'm concerened, democracy will only develop and society will only evolve in these crapholes if the people want them to. Any instiution set up by outsiders (and make no mistake: we ar eoutsiders in Afghanistan, as are most of the people we sent to run the palce) is doomed. The best tactic is to support domestic groups and NGOs working to build the institutions from the ground up and develop soem garssroots support. That probably won't work either, but it's a better shot tahn the half-assed job we're doing. Out of all the countries in the middle east, Afghanistan is the one country that probably has the biggest chance of being reformed into a democracy Well, first, Afghanistan is not in the Middle East: it's in Central Asia. . The reason for it being ready where others are not, is the fact that they have been ravaged by wars and invading armies for decades, and through all of this they have still managed, to survive as a people. So? A history of successful defence againts invasion is no a precondition of democracy. It just means don't f**k with Afghanistan. They have so little left to lose that they will welcome, any path that allows them to gain back their own lands and once again develope some sort of community that is not based on who has the biggest weapons. You're basing this on what, exactly? Afghanistan is a extremely divided society: tribal and factional loyalty comes first, which means there's no "community" there to speak of. Yes it will not be a state where everything is like our own. It would be nice to see some sort of freedom for women, and better treatment of them. Yes ideally women would be equall, but for now I would just like to see a move where women are not property of men, and they should have the same rights to education etc. If that can be achieved then it will not be long before women will be equal. Everytime Afghanistan has tried such reforms (King Amanullah tried it in the '20s and the socialist PDPA tried it in the '70s), the reforms have been rejected by the countries tribal and religious leaders, which led to the fall of the government. The fact is the treatment of women as property (among other things) is a deeply ingrained part of the society and certainly not something that will change because of our say so. So for all those who just seem to always disagree with all things in the middle east, just what would your plan be? It would be nice to see people giving ideas instead of just always saying it can not be done. This is a country where it has been beaten down so far that they really have nothing more to lose, but they also seem to be willing to give many new things a try. So it is a clean slate so to speak. How would you try and fill in the space and the lay of the land? How would you go about doing this? It's not a clean slate. It's a very dirty slate, tainted by war, centuries of imperialism, internal strife and disunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Harper has no plans to visit Afghanistan Harper has been widely reported to be planning a visit to Afghanistan, but the prime minister says he will not be going in the immediate future. Public opinion polls suggest more than 60 per cent of Canadians are questioning the country's increasingly dangerous role in Afghanistan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblio Bibuli Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 I was embarrassed .... If you want to be REALLY embarrassed check this out . http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/sto...b0-f4b03cb63122 Excerpt: """ Insurgents shot at a Canadian convoy last night in an ambush on a busy stretch of highway that has become a dreaded danger zone. The Canadians returned fire before racing out of the area. "They put the pedal to the metal to pass the attack site," said army spokesman Maj. Marc Theriault. """ THEY RAN AWAY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 If you want to be REALLY embarrassed check this out .http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/sto...b0-f4b03cb63122 Excerpt: """ Insurgents shot at a Canadian convoy last night in an ambush on a busy stretch of highway that has become a dreaded danger zone. The Canadians returned fire before racing out of the area. "They put the pedal to the metal to pass the attack site," said army spokesman Maj. Marc Theriault. """ THEY RAN AWAY! Why is that embarrassing? Sounds like getting the hell out of an ambush situation is S.O.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffrey Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 If you want to be REALLY embarrassed check this out .http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/sto...b0-f4b03cb63122 Excerpt: """ Insurgents shot at a Canadian convoy last night in an ambush on a busy stretch of highway that has become a dreaded danger zone. The Canadians returned fire before racing out of the area. "They put the pedal to the metal to pass the attack site," said army spokesman Maj. Marc Theriault. """ THEY RAN AWAY! Why is that embarrassing? Sounds like getting the hell out of an ambush situation is S.O.P. Ya sounds pretty smart to me... they are still alive no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblio Bibuli Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 If you want to be REALLY embarrassed check this out .http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/sto...b0-f4b03cb63122 Excerpt: """ Insurgents shot at a Canadian convoy last night in an ambush on a busy stretch of highway that has become a dreaded danger zone. The Canadians returned fire before racing out of the area. "They put the pedal to the metal to pass the attack site," said army spokesman Maj. Marc Theriault. """ THEY RAN AWAY! Why is that embarrassing? Sounds like getting the hell out of an ambush situation is S.O.P. Ya sounds pretty smart to me... they are still alive no? I always wondered why when 45 rpm records came out the Canadian Army insisted on playing their chosen marches on the old 78 rpm machines. And when the 33s came out and they STILL played them on 78s I became suspicious. NOW I KNOW ... they always knew they'll be much more handy for their inevitable retreat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblio Bibuli Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 I always wondered why when 45 rpm records came out the Canadian Army insisted on playing their chosen marches on the old 78 rpm machines. And when the 33s came out and they STILL played them on 78s I became suspicious.NOW I KNOW ... they always knew they'll be much more handy for their inevitable retreat. Ok ok, so I plagiarized it. And screwed it up in the process. I'M SORRY!!! Here's the original: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...19/ai_n11885604 Or perhaps that's plagiarized too, because in my book of Humorous Quotations it's said even better. There the General says ... GENERAL : Isn't it a little fast, Korngold? The men can't march to that. KORNGOLD: Ah yes, well, you see Sir, this was composed for the retreat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksey Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 I always wondered why when 45 rpm records came out the Canadian Army insisted on playing their chosen marches on the old 78 rpm machines. And when the 33s came out and they STILL played them on 78s I became suspicious. NOW I KNOW ... they always knew they'll be much more handy for their inevitable retreat. Ok ok, so I plagiarized it. And screwed it up in the process. I'M SORRY!!! Here's the original: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...19/ai_n11885604 Or perhaps that's plagiarized too, because in my book of Humorous Quotations it's said even better. There the General says ... GENERAL : Isn't it a little fast, Korngold? The men can't march to that. KORNGOLD: Ah yes, well, you see Sir, this was composed for the retreat! Humor aside, isn't this about the most rude awakening we could get to finally get soldiers the funding, equipment and numbers they need to perform what is asked of them? Sadly enough I think we should pull them. I don't say this becuase I think the work they're doing isn't worthwhile, rather because I don't think they're properly equipped/staffed to do the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblio Bibuli Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Humor aside, isn't this about the most rude awakening we could get to finally get soldiers the funding, equipment and numbers they need to perform what is asked of them?Sadly enough I think we should pull them. I don't say this becuase I think the work they're doing isn't worthwhile, rather because I don't think they're properly equipped/staffed to do the work. BINGO !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksey Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Humor aside, isn't this about the most rude awakening we could get to finally get soldiers the funding, equipment and numbers they need to perform what is asked of them? Sadly enough I think we should pull them. I don't say this becuase I think the work they're doing isn't worthwhile, rather because I don't think they're properly equipped/staffed to do the work. BINGO !!! What's even worse is that now that the terrorists have seen them flee confrontation, the rest are now are in more danger. That show of weakness will only serve to embolden the terrorists. Even if we don't pull them, it has become clear they certainly need some support. Personally, I'd like to see them remain in a lesser role. Send in a better prepared nation to lead the way and we'll help where we're able. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Not all military convoys are geared towards offensive operations. IE supply convoys ,convoys made -up of light skinned vehs, or lightly armed recon vehs such as the LUVW. Thier SOP is to get out of the area ASAP, better to live to fight another day than to fight a battle that the outcome has already been decided. Humor aside, isn't this about the most rude awakening we could get to finally get soldiers the funding, equipment and numbers they need to perform what is asked of them?Sadly enough I think we should pull them. I don't say this becuase I think the work they're doing isn't worthwhile, rather because I don't think they're properly equipped/staffed to do the work I don't see it as a anwaking for the people of Canada, as we have been over thier in Afgan for years now, i honestly believe that the average Canadain does know the current state of the military, but put thier concerns towards things that directly effect them. Such as health care, etc. That being said Over in Afgan the Canadians are about the best equiped, in all regards excluding the US of course, in regards to having the best equipment money can buy. Afgan has done wonders for DND in regards to having our government purchase the equipment we need, but every gain that has been made has come at the price of lives of our soldiers.. Yes that equipment is only available in Afgan at this time but it is slowly trickling down and making it's way over to Canada. If the people of Canada do pull us out i hope it's for the right reasons, IE to give the forces a much needed break and to regroup and have our government spend the multi bil of dollars to equip us properly through-out the entire Army,Navy, and Airforce. Which we all know is not going to happen. But pulling us out i think would be an insult to those members that have made this mission as sucessful as it has been todate with little to no support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hicksey Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Not all military convoys are geared towards offensive operations. IE supply convoys ,convoys made -up of light skinned vehs, or lightly armed recon vehs such as the LUVW. Thier SOP is to get out of the area ASAP, better to live to fight another day than to fight a battle that the outcome has already been decided.Humor aside, isn't this about the most rude awakening we could get to finally get soldiers the funding, equipment and numbers they need to perform what is asked of them?Sadly enough I think we should pull them. I don't say this becuase I think the work they're doing isn't worthwhile, rather because I don't think they're properly equipped/staffed to do the work I don't see it as a anwaking for the people of Canada, as we have been over thier in Afgan for years now, i honestly believe that the average Canadain does know the current state of the military, but put thier concerns towards things that directly effect them. Such as health care, etc. That being said Over in Afgan the Canadians are about the best equiped, in all regards excluding the US of course, in regards to having the best equipment money can buy. Afgan has done wonders for DND in regards to having our government purchase the equipment we need, but every gain that has been made has come at the price of lives of our soldiers.. Yes that equipment is only available in Afgan at this time but it is slowly trickling down and making it's way over to Canada. If the people of Canada do pull us out i hope it's for the right reasons, IE to give the forces a much needed break and to regroup and have our government spend the multi bil of dollars to equip us properly through-out the entire Army,Navy, and Airforce. Which we all know is not going to happen. But pulling us out i think would be an insult to those members that have made this mission as sucessful as it has been todate with little to no support. I'm only concerned about them getting the support they need. It very well may be that they weren't part of an offensive batallion. If that's the case then they definitely did the right thing. I still think it should be an awakening. Our military has been so badly neglected in the past 20 years that it would taken hundreds of billions of dollars to bring it back to where it should be. But I think we definitely need to start making that investment. Even if it is slower coming than they need something is better than nothing. Its pretty bad when half your equipment is being held together with duct tape and band-aids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblio Bibuli Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Not all military convoys are geared towards offensive operations. It very well may be that they weren't part of an offensive batallion. The fact that these attacks always happen on this "busy stretch of highway that has become a dreaded danger zone" tells me that Canadian soldiers have no intention of ever mixing it up with these terrorists. Otherwise they would send that "offensive battalion" there already, no? Boy, wouldn't it be something if it was Osama himself who was scaring the Canadian soldiers on that busy stretch? If it were I wouldn't blame our soldiers because I would also be high-tailing through there myself. That guy is a nutbar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 The fact that these attacks always happen on this "busy stretch of highway that has become a dreaded danger zone" tells me that Canadian soldiers have no intention of ever mixing it up with these terrorists. Otherwise they would send that "offensive battalion" there already, no? Most of the Battle group there is activily hunting the bad guys down 24 hours a day, The Canadian area of operations covers over 220,000 sq kms and they can't cover it all ,all at once. And unlike the US, Canadian forces do not publish enemy body counts so it's hard for the public to gage how effective our military is doing. Also keep in mind these guy's just got into threater less than 20 days ago, and this is a new area and a entire different mission than what we had in Kabul.Plus portions of the canadain camp is still being built. These attcks are just a prelude to the spring offensive, which will bring alot more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 No debate on Afghanistan: Harper "I am very distressed. I was very distressed to read suggestions from some Liberal MPs this week at their caucus meeting that they might now want to question that involvement, and might now want to have a vote," Mr. Harper told reporters. "You do not send men and women into harm's way on a dangerous mission, with the support of our party and other Canadians, and then decide, once they're over there, that you're not sure you should have sent them." The democractic deficit is alive and well in the CPC. Not that I'm surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike22 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Finally a foreign policy that makes Canadians proud I am so happy I am going to whistle zippity do da out my butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.