PM is distressed

[geoffrey]

Yeah, Israel is in the mess they're in by appeasing the Palistineans for the past 60 years.

Yes they are.

[Hicksey]

Political correctness. I would like to know who coined that phrase and kick them squarely in the n*ts.

PC is for people that cannot handle the truth. Sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade.

[Argus]

Yeah, Israel is in the mess they're in by appeasing the Palistineans for the past 60 years.

One could make the case that the Intifada would never have lasted more than a week in an Arab country, simply because everyone involved would have been slaughtered from the start, and the rest would have learned to stop acting up.

The Israelis have been considerably more restrained.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hicksey,

Sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade.

Just don't call him that if he has lots of buddies with him. (j/k)

[Army Guy]

Wiber:

"Oh they shouldn't print this kind of trash! I don't wanna see a pear being used that way!"

OMG we'll have fruit growers rioting and burning down Safeways because they are selling pears to the US military.

I thought all this started with 9/11 or was it the first time these maniacs tried to blow up the World Trade Center back in 93. When people are more upset about a cartoon aimed at creeps who blow up loaded busses, shopping areas, night clubs, embassy's and wedding party's, than they are about those who commit these acts, it's already too late.

What is it your trying to say we should broaden the WAR on terrorism, to include all muslims, better yet why not include all those that do not see the world as we do.

[betsy]

Wiber:

"Oh they shouldn't print this kind of trash! I don't wanna see a pear being used that way!"

OMG we'll have fruit growers rioting and burning down Safeways because they are selling pears to the US military.

I thought all this started with 9/11 or was it the first time these maniacs tried to blow up the World Trade Center back in 93. When people are more upset about a cartoon aimed at creeps who blow up loaded busses, shopping areas, night clubs, embassy's and wedding party's, than they are about those who commit these acts, it's already too late.

What is it your trying to say we should broaden the WAR on terrorism, to include all muslims, better yet why not include all those that do not see the world as we do.

Taking note of all the sample incidents happening all over the world, unfortunately, the innocent moderate Muslims are getting dragged in and getting victimized.

The re-printing of cartoons is just superficial considering the underlying reasons why the world is reacting this way. Encouraging and supporting a group bent on destruction and atrocities....and suppressing the other from voicing and venting their outrage can only lead to a more volatile climate. Both sides are being incited and provoked by the liberal-minded group claiming to be for peace. Isn't it ironic?

Kinda remind me of cock-fighting. A lot of stroking and smoke-blowing.

[Army Guy]

Betsy:

I don't think this amount to much in our argument, although it actually does support some of our comments...but since you've brought this up, let me just direct you to that word, "reprisal."

Yes lets talk about reprisals for a minute. If we had used our common sense and shown alittle respect in the first place there would not have been any need for "reprisals" would there. Once reprisals start, they don't stop it's tit for tat, so again what price are we willing to pay to exericise our so called freedom of speech.

It's ironic that the news you've pointed out above is about reprisal. Some of us here have been saying that there's more to this than just mere re-printing of cartoons. This is about "making a stand."

For some, it is about "pushing back."

If you hadn't noticed, the world is slowly responding...in various ways...to threats and intimidations and downright terrorism. Here's another example from another part of the world.

So this is not about freedom of speech, it's about you being tired of threats and intimidations and down right terrorism, and this incident is just the straw that broke the camels back. And now your just waking-up, So where were you when the west slamed it's fist on the table and decided to declare WAR on terrorism.

Would it not be better if you and other supporters stop boosting the morale of these violent protesters and terrorists by your public display of sympathy and cries for appeasement? Your display only enboldens and encourages these radicals all the more

Yes it's easy to sit in your armchair and post "we are making a stand" we're tired of being pushed around. But what price are you willing to pay in making your stand, are you willing to pay with your life.

Are you willing to die, are you willing to die over a cartoon.

As for me boosting the moral of these terrorists, I'm sorry but where were you when i was patroling the hills of Kabul looking to put a round in one of those terrorist. i thought you looked familar, oh wait , nope i don't recogize the arm chair.

You see i've been there, i know first hand what these people are capable of. These radical muslims don't need very much of an excuse to get worked into a frenzy. SO while your here back in Canada spouting of about your freedom of rights "we can print what the F**k we want, your actually helping them(the Terrorist) convince those moderate Muslims(non Terrorist) to join thier cause.

So when the snow leaves the mountains in Afgan soon, all the work, all the death and destruction will be for nothing because thier ranks would have swelled in numbers because of you recruiting efforts. Because you wanted to print a few cartoons.

So when a few army guys print those storys or inform you that we are not scared, but concerned over your actions, maybe would should have another look at what you are doing. Or maybe before you decide to broaden the conflict, that will produce more Canadian casualities you should take a more direct approach by going down to your local recruiting station and strapping on a pair of boots. because i could use some more company when i'm out there again in late 06.

[Hicksey]

Dear Hicksey,

Sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade.

Just don't call him that if he has lots of buddies with him. (j/k)

I can't remember Ron White's whole "I got thrown out of a bar in New York" bit, but I'll paraphrase the relevant part.

"... Now, I don't know how many of them it would've taken to kick my ass, but knew how many they were gonna use!"

[Army Guy]

Argus:

think you're reaching. I don't understand this need of the apeasers to try and find a Christian wrong to match every Muslim wrong. You can't do it. But you keep trying. Ten million Muslims march through the streets buring and killing and shooting? Well, look, here's a Christian who was mean to his mom! Phht. And your cite, btw, speaks of retaliation by those Christians for physical attacks on them and their community, not religious inspired violence. It's rather a different thing, imho, to attack a group because of cartoons printed thousands of miles away, and to attack a group because they rampaged through your community burning, raping and murdering your people.

No your right it's not based on religion, Muslims attack the christains, christians attack the muslims, it just a concidence that they are of the same religion. It's also a concidence that they only killed the opposite religion. And if you actually had been following the story it was inspired by those stupid cartoons, but that will not matter in a few weeks will it, because they will be killing each other to get even tit for tat. and the only ones that will know is us, the ones that printed the cartoons.

So if the appeasers get their way we prohibit cartoons of Muslims. Next month they'll be rioting and killing over an op-ed piece in a paper. So we prohibit opinon pieces which are insulting to Islam. The following month they'll riot over a video game, or a song on the radio, or a T-shirt someone wore, or something else. Eventually, we're left with nothing but bowing and scraping.

Appeasment doesn't work. It never has. It buys the frightened people a little time, and that's it.

Ya your right it has nevered worked, then perhaps you can inform the crowd here on why we have censorship, why i can bring you to court over something you have said or written because i find it offending. why we have laws on racism, hate, etc,etc.

When in reality your freedom of speech already has limitations to it. and is passed into law. Are you protesting those laws is this what all this is about. Or are just again'st using common sense or respect. and are unable to communicate without offending anyone.

If exercising our freedoms seems too dangerous for you, if it worries you that exercising those freedoms might provoke bad people into commiting violence, then find another profession.

The is always a red neck in the crowd who firmly believes it is his or her god given right to say what ever comes to mind without consquence and to hide behind "it is our freedom of speech" it's always these people who demand these freedoms be defended at the cost of someone elses life. "defend me or get another job"

Like i told betsy get down to the recruiting centers they got lots of boots your size.

I and many others in uniform think our lifes are worth more than a cartoon. If your not happy with the current scope of the War on terrorism write your MP, explain to him that you want it to include all radical muslims everywhere so that you will not feel threaten, or scared when you decide to call them what ever comes to your mind.

Hey while your at it, lets include anyone that takes offense to your remarks and may punch you in the lips because you can not use common sense or respect.

Thanks, but that's not the way the world works. Our freedoms won't likely be restricted directly, but indirectly, through the application of threats which cause anxious and politically correct politicians to pass restrictive laws We can already see some of those laws in Europe, where ordinary individuals can be imprisoned for doing or saying things which are insulting to Muslims - or to any minority. In a desperate effort to avoid offending anyone Europe has basically made it illegal to say or do anything offensive. I don't call that freedom.

There is a basic truism. You cannot have freedom of speech and freedom from offence at the same time. You can have one or the other - not both

Your freedoms are restricted, and it is in Law in Canada. perhaps you can provide us a sample of current Canadian law that states you can say or express what ever you wish, when ever you wish.

And yes, you can provide it is used with common sense and respect.

[Hicksey]

So if the appeasers get their way we prohibit cartoons of Muslims. Next month they'll be rioting and killing over an op-ed piece in a paper. So we prohibit opinon pieces which are insulting to Islam. The following month they'll riot over a video game, or a song on the radio, or a T-shirt someone wore, or something else. Eventually, we're left with nothing but bowing and scraping.

Appeasment doesn't work. It never has. It buys the frightened people a little time, and that's it.

Ya your right it has nevered worked, then perhaps you can inform the crowd here on why we have censorship, why i can bring you to court over something you have said or written because i find it offending. why we have laws on racism, hate, etc,etc.

When in reality your freedom of speech already has limitations to it. and is passed into law. Are you protesting those laws is this what all this is about. Or are just again'st using common sense or respect. and are unable to communicate without offending anyone.

If exercising our freedoms seems too dangerous for you, if it worries you that exercising those freedoms might provoke bad people into commiting violence, then find another profession.

The is always a red neck in the crowd who firmly believes it is his or her god given right to say what ever comes to mind without consquence and to hide behind "it is our freedom of speech" it's always these people who demand these freedoms be defended at the cost of someone elses life. "defend me or get another job"

Like i told betsy get down to the recruiting centers they got lots of boots your size.

I and many others in uniform think our lifes are worth more than a cartoon. If your not happy with the current scope of the War on terrorism write your MP, explain to him that you want it to include all radical muslims everywhere so that you will not feel threaten, or scared when you decide to call them what ever comes to your mind.

Hey while your at it, lets include anyone that takes offense to your remarks and may punch you in the lips because you can not use common sense or respect.

That cartoon was just another excuse for them to be violent. They didn't even do anything about it until almost 6 months after they were first published.

If these people want respect from the world they need to show a willingness to use a means other than violence to solve their problems. Once they show us they can solve their problems using diplomacy instead of homocide bombers and destruction of property, then maybe they deserve to be shown the respect that we afford the rest of the world.

I am sick and tired of people making excuses for their behavior.

If someone insults my wife and my religion, is it then OK for me to burn their house down and then walk onto a bus filled with their neighbors and loved ones with a bomb strapped to my chest? Didn't think so.

I know this is the more extremist of muslims that do this, but the silent majority of peaceful muslims needs to step in and reign them in--not us or the US. The majority of muslims may be silently insulted about the cartoons as I am about the ongoing assault on catholicism, but that just shows they understand the need, as I do, to resolve these things peacefully.

PS. Why is it that a cartoon that insults muslims draws out every apologist the left can muster, but a guy standing naked pissing on a cross can be justified by the same people as art?

[BubberMiley]

Kinda remind me of cock-fighting. A lot of stroking and smoke-blowing.

Are you trying to direct this topic towards EGALE again?

[betsy]

Betsy:

I don't think this amount to much in our argument, although it actually does support some of our comments...but since you've brought this up, let me just direct you to that word, "reprisal."

Yes lets talk about reprisals for a minute. If we had used our common sense and shown alittle respect in the first place there would not have been any need for "reprisals" would there.

Please refresh my memory. What respect for what are you referring here?

[betsy]

Kinda remind me of cock-fighting. A lot of stroking and smoke-blowing.

Are you trying to direct this topic towards EGALE again?

What about EGALE???

I was talking about real cock-fights. I mean, roosters!

[betsy]

Betsy:

So where were you when the west slamed it's fist on the table and decided to declare WAR on terrorism.

Right here....cheering for Bush!

[betsy]

Yes it's easy to sit in your armchair and post "we are making a stand" we're tired of being pushed around. But what price are you willing to pay in making your stand, are you willing to pay with your life.

Are you willing to die, are you willing to die over a cartoon.

Making a stand and fighting does not always mean carrying a gun. Sometimes, the pen is mightier than the sword.

Whether we say anything or not does not matter. You could be anywhere and be blown up by suicide bombers. Just because it hasn't happened yet in Canada does not mean it won't.

Appeasing will not guarantee your safety...no matter where you are.

Of course like you, I am scared too. We are human after all. But there's no point in trying to show that you are their buddy, quelling a dignified stance in the face of their aggressive intimidation....with the hope that later it will be reason enough for them to spare you.

Look at that poor woman from CARE who devoted most of her life helping and living among them. She even married one of them. her husband pleaded for her. Did it make any difference?

[Army Guy]

Hicksey:

That cartoon was just another excuse for them to be violent. They didn't even do anything about it until almost 6 months after they were first published.

By "They" you mean the extremist muslim, because the moderate muslims in Denmark had already informed the media that they did in fact find it offensive the day after it was printed. So we already established the media already knew that this cartoon was offensive. Months later it, the extremist muslims get a hold of it, and creates another outburst, riots etc...the west response is to print it again and again. This time they print it knowing full well it was offensive.

If these people want respect from the world they need to show a willingness to use a means other than violence to solve their problems. Once they show us they can solve their problems using diplomacy instead of homocide bombers and destruction of property, then maybe they deserve to be shown the respect that we afford the rest of the world.

I'm confused here are you saying "these people" meaning "ALL Muslims" are using violence to solve thier problems, and what of the Muslims in the US or Canada, have they used violence to solve thier problems. But because they fall under one religion we have branded them with the same iron.

Because what i am saying is "All muslims" find these cartoons offensive, not just the bad ones but the good ones as well. And has the Canadian or US muslims peaceful requests shown progress, has it stopped the presses from printing those cartoons. So your comment of "Once they show us they can solve their problems using diplomacy instead of homocide bombers and destruction of property, then maybe they deserve to be shown the respect that we afford the rest of the world." HOLDS NO WATER DOES IT.

I am sick and tired of people making excuses for their behavior.

I've re read all the posts find me one that makes excuses for the Behavior of the Radical Muslims. It's been stated in many posts that there is no excuses for thier behavior...What you are doing is making excuses for the media for not using common sense or repect.

PS. Why is it that a cartoon that insults muslims draws out every apologist the left can muster, but a guy standing naked pissing on a cross can be justified by the same people as art?

Because i think it is wrong to blame an entire religion on the actions of a few extremists ,now i branded an apologist. would we be having this conversations if you were to insert the words Black man,jew,white Canadian into those spaces occupied by Muslim. Would it be all right if we published an extremily offensive cartoons about these guys...

[Army Guy]

Betsy:

Yes it's easy to sit in your armchair and post "we are making a stand" we're tired of being pushed around. But what price are you willing to pay in making your stand, are you willing to pay with your life.

Are you willing to die, are you willing to die over a cartoon.

Making a stand and fighting does not always mean carrying a gun. Sometimes, the pen is mightier than the sword. Whether we say anything or not does not matter. You could be anywhere and be blown up by suicide bombers. Just because it hasn't happened yet in Canada does not mean it won't.

That was not the question, Are you willing to put your life in danger because of a cartoon.

Whether we say anything or not does not matter. And what i'm saying is it does matter, as the extremist are using this cartoon for thier benifit as well, for an excuse to act out again'st western interests, and to further thier recruitment.

Appeasing will not guarantee your safety...no matter where you are.

If that is what you think i'm doing your wrong, How am i appeasing anyone, by saying it is wrong to insult an entire religion. And is that what you think i'm doing trying to guarantee my safety. Have you been to Afgan, there is no safety anywhere.

Of course like you, I am scared too. We are human after all. But there's no point in trying to show that you are their buddy, quelling a dignified stance in the face of their aggressive intimidation....with the hope that later it will be reason enough for them to spare you.

How do you get the impresion that i'm scared. i've told you already that i've been in these situations 8 times todate and am training for another. If i was truely "SCARED" i think once would have been enough, even say i was alittle slow 3 or 4 times would have been enough. but 8 times give me a break.

Personally i don't care what you call the extremists or taliban,as i have called them a few chioce names myself. but that is not what was done here instead we insulted the entire Muslim religion. Billions of people over the actions of what a couple million tops. we've balled them all together and branded them with the same iron. F--k them all, lets piss them all off, who cares....It concerns me that i may have to escort a dead Canadian soldier back to Canada over a cartoon. scared NO, pissed off yes.

The Taliban don't take prisoners for very long nor do they spare anyone, Nato soldiers are all viewed the same, we are western infidel dogs to be shown no mercy. And yet knowing that we (the western world ) agree to show them and abide by the laws of conflict and the laws set out in Canada.

So while we are trying to win hearts and minds of the locals, our media at the same time are saying to the same locals we don't care about your religion we p*ss on it freely because of our freedoms. something they(the locals) know nothing about.

And all i'm asking is some common sense to be used, apparently thats to much to ask.And if we can not use our common sense and respect, how do we except to convince other nations to follow our lead and example.

[Spike22]

5 months after these comics first appeared why are the towel heads still freakin' out? There were more protests the past few days in Pakistan. Do these odiferous people not work? I am sure there is some dirt collecting, carpet weaving, donkey milking or something else constructive they could be doing instead of rioting.

[betsy]

Betsy:

Yes it's easy to sit in your armchair and post "we are making a stand" we're tired of being pushed around. But what price are you willing to pay in making your stand, are you willing to pay with your life.

Are you willing to die, are you willing to die over a cartoon.

Making a stand and fighting does not always mean carrying a gun. Sometimes, the pen is mightier than the sword. Whether we say anything or not does not matter. You could be anywhere and be blown up by suicide bombers. Just because it hasn't happened yet in Canada does not mean it won't.

That was not the question, Are you willing to put your life in danger because of a cartoon.

But this is not just about cartoons.

I spoke out and showed my support for the Western Standard, didn't I?

[Wilber]

Again

If Jews were rioting, attacking embassies, foreign nationals and burning down businesses owned by middle eastern companies and individuals, would people be apologizing for their behavior because they had been offended by these? I wonder. I don't belong to either group but as an outside observer the cartoons printed by the Danes look really tame compared to what is printed in the Arab media. If you are going to heap this kind of crap on others, you shouldn't be surprised if a little comes back at you.

[betsy]

The Taliban don't take prisoners for very long nor do they spare anyone, Nato soldiers are all viewed the same, we are western infidel dogs to be shown no mercy. And yet knowing that we (the western world ) agree to show them and abide by the laws of conflict and the laws set out in Canada.

So while we are trying to win hearts and minds of the locals, our media at the same time are saying to the same locals we don't care about your religion we p*ss on it freely because of our freedoms. something they(the locals) know nothing about.

And all i'm asking is some common sense to be used, apparently thats to much to ask.And if we can not use our common sense and respect, how do we except to convince other nations to follow our lead and example.

As you've said, NATO soldiers are all viewed the same as the western infidel dogs to be shown no mercy.

There is nothing wrong in trying to win the hearts and minds of the locals.....and I'm sure Canadian soldiers respect the culture and religion of the people.

But we have our own culture here that ought to be respected too...or at least understood, by those who had chosen to live in this land.

That is the very root of the problem in Europe I think, and some other parts of the world....that muslims who had chosen to live in western worlds expect and demand that those countries dent their own culture, to the point of tampering with rights and freedom....just so to accomodate a religion.

The common sense that ought to prevail is for everyone to remember and understand that we all live here in a WESTERN country, with its own western culture and a democratic society.

[betsy]

how do we except to convince other nations to follow our lead and example.

Some countries are peopled by nationalists proud of their own. Perhaps trying to convince these nations to follow our lead and example will be misconstrued as a terrible insult....implying that their system and way of life is inferior to ours.

After all, the west is seen and regarded as the "evil that corrupts."

[Hicksey]

Hicksey:

That cartoon was just another excuse for them to be violent. They didn't even do anything about it until almost 6 months after they were first published.

By "They" you mean the extremist muslim, because the moderate muslims in Denmark had already informed the media that they did in fact find it offensive the day after it was printed. So we already established the media already knew that this cartoon was offensive. Months later it, the extremist muslims get a hold of it, and creates another outburst, riots etc...the west response is to print it again and again. This time they print it knowing full well it was offensive.

If these people want respect from the world they need to show a willingness to use a means other than violence to solve their problems. Once they show us they can solve their problems using diplomacy instead of homocide bombers and destruction of property, then maybe they deserve to be shown the respect that we afford the rest of the world.

I'm confused here are you saying "these people" meaning "ALL Muslims" are using violence to solve thier problems, and what of the Muslims in the US or Canada, have they used violence to solve thier problems. But because they fall under one religion we have branded them with the same iron.

Because what i am saying is "All muslims" find these cartoons offensive, not just the bad ones but the good ones as well. And has the Canadian or US muslims peaceful requests shown progress, has it stopped the presses from printing those cartoons. So your comment of "Once they show us they can solve their problems using diplomacy instead of homocide bombers and destruction of property, then maybe they deserve to be shown the respect that we afford the rest of the world." HOLDS NO WATER DOES IT.

I am sick and tired of people making excuses for their behavior.

I've re read all the posts find me one that makes excuses for the Behavior of the Radical Muslims. It's been stated in many posts that there is no excuses for thier behavior...What you are doing is making excuses for the media for not using common sense or repect.

PS. Why is it that a cartoon that insults muslims draws out every apologist the left can muster, but a guy standing naked pissing on a cross can be justified by the same people as art?

Because i think it is wrong to blame an entire religion on the actions of a few extremists ,now i branded an apologist. would we be having this conversations if you were to insert the words Black man,jew,white Canadian into those spaces occupied by Muslim. Would it be all right if we published an extremily offensive cartoons about these guys...

Its true that a bunch of extremists are dragging the good names of a lot of other muslims through the mud. But doesn't every faction of society have the same problem? Doesn't every race and religion have its zealots and extremists? Every time I post anything with regard to my religion even here, I am equated with the most extreme religious bigots. I've been called as much here many times. Do I get insulted? Absolutely. But I don't blow things up. I don't demand that all others that have viewpoints other than my own should have to be quiet about their beliefs lest they insult me.

Nobody's forcing these people to pick up the newspaper, just like nobody's forcing me to return here and risk being further insulted.

Deal with it. I have to. Why should they be any different?

Face it. In a world with free speech you're bound to hear and see things you don't like. Its a part of life. Only in perfect world would nobody ever be insulted. And the world we live in is far from perfect.

[betsy]

How am i appeasing anyone, by saying it is wrong to insult an entire religion.

Saying it is one thing. But you aren't just saying it. You're telling others to shut up with their opinions.

You even went so far as judging and deciding for everyone....you want to eliminate the freedom to choose, along with the freedom of speech and press....just because a group says they find it offensive.

You could've have simply turned to this group and adviced them: "Well then, don't read the bloody Western Standard!" Face it, that is the simplest, most logical, sensible thing to do in this situation. That would've been pure common sense in its simple form!

But going through all these contortions and twisting of reality, justifying why you'd rather see clipping some freedom in your OWN SOIL to MAKE AMEND and KEEP THE HORDES from indulging in more bloodletting....in other words, to PACIFY....well, that is unmistakeably callled, 'appeasing".

[betsy]

Army guy,

One of the soldiers you quoted wrote:

"When we as soldiers move into another country, whether to keep or enforce the peace, we respect the fact that the host country is unique in its beliefs and culture. We try to leave the country (at some point) with minimal cultural impact.

We respect their holidays and events; we go so far as to try not to eat or drink in front of Muslims during Ramadan out of respect for their culture, even while in our own camp. "

If you could so graciously afford to give that kind of respect and courtesy to a foreign country when you're on their soil....then why can't you expect the same kind from any of them when they are on ours.

After all, no one forced anybody to come to our country...in fact, we've opened our doors to anyone who'd wish to take part in this culture!

It just so happened that our culture involved having the freedom to express our opinions and the freedom of the press to print what they decide ought to be printed.

These people came and most escaped from a culture of abuse where freedom hardly exists. They need to adjust to this new culture that is abundant with all sorts of freedom....not the other way around!