PM is distressed

[betsy]

Betsy:

But that's it, isn't it? No christians ever protested burning a Canadian or any flag and became violent at the sight of things they considered immoral...not even during circumstances where insults and ridicule were directed at our God. You don't see thousands marching and shouting in anger, threatening about bloodshed!

I'm assuming your talking about Canadain christians and not the christians mention in the Below link.

My Webpage

So when this is all over ,and said and done they are going to be sitting down trying to figure out just all this got started. and recorded in history it will read that the begining of this conflict was started with the printing of a cartoon. yes ladies and gentlemen a cartoon. And The survivors will be sitting on top of a pile of dead buddies saying we showed them bastards did'nt we. Them muslim dinks, what a bunch of cry babies. burn my church down will ya.

And we will be shouting from the roof tops, Martha grab me my shotgun were going hunting.

Bodies pile up after Nigeria riot

Police have struggled to keep a lid on the violence

The city of Onitsha in south-eastern Nigeria is calm after two days of anti-Muslim riots left many dead.

Nigerian human rights workers say they have counted 80 bodies following two days of reprisal attacks by crowds of Christians armed with machetes.

They went on the rampage after the killing of more than 30 Christians in riots in two mainly Muslim towns in northern Nigeria at the weekend.

---------------------

Religious skirmishes had been happening all over the world. And with Africa, mass killings are unfortunately too common now. It doesn't take much for the machetes to strike. It is part of their culture!

I don't think this amount to much in our argument, although it actually does support some of our comments...but since you've brought this up, let me just direct you to that word, "reprisal."

[betsy]

I'm not ignoring it, condoning it, or apologizing for it. I just don't see how it's relevant what a few wing-nuts do. Remember, there are well over a billion muslims in the world and most of them are quietly offended by those cartoons. I don't see how it's a big sacrifice on our part to respect their wish that it not be published, just as I would respect others' wishes to not have to be exposed to penis slurpers in the Post or Abu Gharib torture pictures.

You don't see it as big sacrifice since you admit that you prefer information to be filtered for you....to have somebody make the judgement call for you.

But not everybody wants it the way you do.

[BubberMiley]

You don't see it as big sacrifice since you admit that you prefer information to be filtered for you....to have somebody make the judgement call for you.

But not everybody wants it the way you do.

Information is always being filtered. That's the job of an editor. I could call a press conference after taking a dump, but that doesn't mean it's going to be front page news. You said yourself that you like the media filtering out images you don't want to see--even newsworthy items like Abu Gharib photos. So what's wrong with a news editor deciding these cartoons are beyond the pale and deciding not to print them, just as he decides not to print a hundred other items every day?

[Wilber]

And

[Argus]

Betsy:

But that's it, isn't it? No christians ever protested burning a Canadian or any flag and became violent at the sight of things they considered immoral...not even during circumstances where insults and ridicule were directed at our God. You don't see thousands marching and shouting in anger, threatening about bloodshed!

I'm assuming your talking about Canadain christians and not the christians mention in the Below link.

My Webpage

I think you're reaching. I don't understand this need of the apeasers to try and find a Christian wrong to match every Muslim wrong. You can't do it. But you keep trying. Ten million Muslims march through the streets buring and killing and shooting? Well, look, here's a Christian who was mean to his mom! Phht. And your cite, btw, speaks of retaliation by those Christians for physical attacks on them and their community, not religious inspired violence. It's rather a different thing, imho, to attack a group because of cartoons printed thousands of miles away, and to attack a group because they rampaged through your community burning, raping and murdering your people.

So when this is all over ,and said and done they are going to be sitting down trying to figure out just all this got started. and recorded in history it will read that the begining of this conflict was started with the printing of a cartoon. yes ladies and gentlemen a cartoon.

So if the appeasers get their way we prohibit cartoons of Muslims. Next month they'll be rioting and killing over an op-ed piece in a paper. So we prohibit opinon pieces which are insulting to Islam. The following month they'll riot over a video game, or a song on the radio, or a T-shirt someone wore, or something else. Eventually, we're left with nothing but bowing and scraping.

Appeasment doesn't work. It never has. It buys the frightened people a little time, and that's it.

[Argus]

Oh please. Your level of self-righteousness is just getting a little high to stomach. OF COURSE we do it as adults. Only we employ others to do it for us. If someone in our culture gets out of hand, we send large armed men to stop them. And if they won't stop, the large armed men beat them up and drag them off to a cage, or shoot them. All laws are ultimately enforced by brute force. All borders are secured by brute force. All nations defend themselves and their people with brute force. Sorry if this all seems rather backward to you, but the rest of the world seems not to have reached your level of smug enlightenment.

Mind you, if I start threatening to hunt you down and kill you because you are offending me with what you're writing here, I suspect that rather than stopping and apologising you'll immediately call the large men with the guns. So you really aren't any better than the rest of us.

I'm i really being self- righteous when i and other soldiers "you know the group of large armed men" have said that they do not appriaciate the added dangers that we will have to face because of some stupid cartoon.

If exercising our freedoms seems too dangerous for you, if it worries you that exercising those freedoms might provoke bad people into commiting violence, then find another profession.

printed to provoke a response. Because the some of the media has not shown alittle common sense and respect. These are the same men and women who hold the line and defend your freedom of rights daily.

Gee, it doesn't sound like you actually want to do that. I asked you before, what happens if the Muslims riot because we're marrying homosexuals. Do we stop?

And when these radical muslims actually do restrict any of your freedoms they will gladly take the fight to them no questions asked.

Thanks, but that's not the way the world works. Our freedoms won't likely be restricted directly, but indirectly, through the application of threats which cause anxious and politically correct politicians to pass restrictive laws We can already see some of those laws in Europe, where ordinary individuals can be imprisoned for doing or saying things which are insulting to Muslims - or to any minority. In a desperate effort to avoid offending anyone Europe has basically made it illegal to say or do anything offensive. I don't call that freedom.

There is a basic truism. You cannot have freedom of speech and freedom from offence at the same time. You can have one or the other - not both.

[BubberMiley]

How does not using our freedom of speech when we have nothing to gain from using it put that freedom in jeopardy?

I agree that governments should keep out of it, other than expressing dismay at poor judgement like what Harper did. But avoiding common sense when deciding what to print is what jeopardizes freedom of speech, not using it.

[Argus]

How does not using our freedom of speech when we have nothing to gain from using it put that freedom in jeopardy?

I agree that governments should keep out of it, other than expressing dismay at poor judgement like what Harper did. But avoiding common sense when deciding what to print is what jeopardizes freedom of speech, not using it.

I think that the only thing which is ever going to cause reform to occur among Muslims is criticism of the current practices of Islam, of the current interpretations of the Koran, of the way Islam is being preached and taught. In other words, you need to attack some sacred cows in order to bring about change.

That cannot happen within the Muslim community, certainly not within the Muslim world. Any criticism of the Koran or the interpretations of it is forbidden. If we in the West also censor ourselves, by government fiat or private "common sense" then there will be no change in the way Islam is taught or preached.

The changes in Christianity over the centuries were not instituted by the churches out of the kindness and goodness of their hearts. They were brought about through ceaseless campaigning and criticism and debate and discussion and disagreement which was openly expressed and which deeply, deeply offended and outraged many believers over that time. If they hadn't been pushed, Christianity would still be burning people as heretics.

The problem with Islam is that it hasn't been pushed. And what you and others are saying is that it must not be pushed - ever.

Granted, there were some riots and a lot of people were feeling prickly and offended. But I can't help wondering if a lot of people weren't also feeling a sense of guilt and discomfort about WHY their religion was being depicted in the way it was, and didn't stop to think with some anger, at all those within the Muslim world who had provoked such feelings and continue to provoke such feelings. Because the fact is that a criticism of Islam over violence is more than fair. The criticism was valid and necessary. Just because some people didn't like it is no reason to not do it.

[Wilber]

"Virtuous motives, trammeled by inertia and timidity, are no match for armed and resolute wickedness"

WSC

[betsy]

You don't see it as big sacrifice since you admit that you prefer information to be filtered for you....to have somebody make the judgement call for you.

But not everybody wants it the way you do.

Information is always being filtered. That's the job of an editor. I could call a press conference after taking a dump, but that doesn't mean it's going to be front page news. You said yourself that you like the media filtering out images you don't want to see--even newsworthy items like Abu Gharib photos. So what's wrong with a news editor deciding these cartoons are beyond the pale and deciding not to print them, just as he decides not to print a hundred other items every day?

I never said I wanted the media filtering out images I don't want to see. True I found it offensive that a porno-stuff material suddenly materialized on the front page of a national newspaper...it caught me by surprise. But like I said, readers will deal with stuffs like that in their own way. My way was to avoid that newspaper and not re-new our subscription.

You ask:

"So what's wrong with a news editor deciding these cartoons are beyond the pale and deciding not to print them, just as he decides not to print a hundred other items every day?"

There's nothing wrong with that....exactly the same as there's nothing wrong with the news editor who decides to print them.

[betsy]

Betsy:

But that's it, isn't it? No christians ever protested burning a Canadian or any flag and became violent at the sight of things they considered immoral...not even during circumstances where insults and ridicule were directed at our God. You don't see thousands marching and shouting in anger, threatening about bloodshed!

I'm assuming your talking about Canadain christians and not the christians mention in the Below link.

My Webpage

So when this is all over ,and said and done they are going to be sitting down trying to figure out just all this got started. and recorded in history it will read that the begining of this conflict was started with the printing of a cartoon. yes ladies and gentlemen a cartoon. And The survivors will be sitting on top of a pile of dead buddies saying we showed them bastards did'nt we. Them muslim dinks, what a bunch of cry babies. burn my church down will ya.

And we will be shouting from the roof tops, Martha grab me my shotgun were going hunting.

It's ironic that the news you've pointed out above is about reprisal. Some of us here have been saying that there's more to this than just mere re-printing of cartoons. This is about "making a stand."

For some, it is about "pushing back."

If you hadn't noticed, the world is slowly responding...in various ways...to threats and intimidations and downright terrorism. Here's another example from another part of the world.

"Katmandu erupts in violence after murder of 12 hostages in IraqScotsman.com News ^ | 9/2/04 | THOMAS BELL

Posted on 09/02/2004 9:21:32 AM PDT by TexKat

VIOLENCE erupted across the Nepalese capital Katmandu yesterday in response to the killing on Tuesday of 12 Nepalese workers who had been kidnapped in Iraq.

Angry mobs attacked Muslims and overseas recruitment agencies, blaming them for the murders. Shots were fired by guards at the Egyptian embassy when a mob attacked the building. Mosques were also targeted. "

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1205757/posts

---------------------

Would it not be better if you and other supporters stop boosting the morale of these violent protesters and terrorists by your public display of sympathy and cries for appeasement? Your display only enboldens and encourages these radicals all the more.

[BubberMiley]

I think printing the cartoons will embolden the radicals (and bring former moderates to their side) more than displaying common sense ever would.

[sharkman]

Common sense? Ha! Common sense would have been to not start world riots over cartoons that you don't like. Common sense is not really that common.

[Wilber]

"Common sense is a collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"

Albert Einstein

[BubberMiley]

Common sense? Ha! Common sense would have been to not start world riots over cartoons that you don't like. Common sense is not really that common.

I agree.

[betsy]

I think printing the cartoons will embolden the radicals (and bring former moderates to their side) more than displaying common sense ever would.

I don't think so.

Printing cartoons had offended, but after a few protests, it would've died down. It is the display of sympathy from those who are non-muslims that enboldens and inspires the radicals.

What better way than to cause "dissension" among their perceived enemies. You guys are falling for it.

[BubberMiley]

[geoffrey]

Common sense doesn't apply to the Middle-East.

[betsy]

Well, the comparison I could think of would be that of a whiney, attention-grabbing, bratty child and a clueless adult. As usual, the child was going to use a little accident to get the attention of this adult.

The adult clearly saw what happened....nothing serious...could hardly even call it an accident.

The bratty child came sniffling, holding up a healthy-looking finger to the adult. "Owww!" he started to whine.

In an equally whiney sing-song way, the adult asked, "Little booooopy, what's wroooong?"

The sniffling turned into a plaintive, "waaaaaah".

"Oh Boooooopy, what happened?" The adult even got a very anxious look, the empathy is there!

"WAAAAAAH", was the answer, tears streaming down now in full force.

"My pooor baby......poor Booooopy..." the adult cooed to the child.

'WAAAAAAAAAAH"

[betsy]

Well, the comparison I could think of would be that of a whiney, attention-grabbing, bratty child and a clueless adult. As usual, the child was going to use a little accident to get the attention of this adult.

The adult clearly saw what happened....nothing serious...could hardly even call it an accident.

The bratty child came sniffling, holding up a healthy-looking finger to the adult. "Owww!" he started to whine.

In an equally whiney sing-song way, the adult asked, "Little booooopy, what's wroooong?"

The sniffling turned into a plaintive, "waaaaaah".

"Oh Boooooopy, what happened?" The adult even got a very anxious look, the empathy is there!

"WAAAAAAH", was the answer, tears streaming down now in full force.

"My pooor baby......poor Booooopy..." the adult cooed to the child.

'WAAAAAAAAAAH"

So after a lot of hugging and nose-blowing, the adult picked up Boopy and took him to the sandbox.

"What do you want to play with, Boopy?"

Boopy, with hiccups, pointed to a little red truck that Fred has with his left hand.

"Fred dear, will you please share and give the red truck to Boopy?"

"But I got it first" complained Fred.

'I want it." Boopy started to whine again.

"Oh c'mon now Fred, you've got two...it won't hurt to give him one. Besides you're older than him."

"No, I'm using it." Fred was adamant.

"Fred! You're not being nice you know. You've got to get along with others. Now, give that red one to Boopy!"

In frustrated anger, Fred grudgingly threw the red truck to Boopy, and stomped off to play somewhere else.

The adult picked up the truck and handed it to bratty Boopy.

"Here you go Boopy, all you need to do is ask nicely."

[BubberMiley]

And then they both killed each other.

[betsy]

Those who continue to bury their heads in the sand, refusing to see that there's more to these re-printing of cartoons than meets the eye....here's another case showing how the world is turning.

http://www.sploid.com/news/2006/01/pork_soup_leave.php

It is sad that we've come to this point.

But this is the result of political-correctness gone mad.

Appeasers, apologists, bleeding-hearts-do-gooders who, in their naivete or whatever, actually do more harm in stirring the pot.

You gotta let the steam come out...otherwise, it'll blow. We're lucky that the likes of Western Standard had in a way offered the relief of letting a few steam out.

Tolerance can only go so far. And when one reaches that breaking point, boy....the pendulum swings to the far end!

[Spike22]

Those who continue to bury their heads in the sand, refusing to see that there's more to these re-printing of cartoons than meets the eye....here's another case showing how the world is turning.

http://www.sploid.com/news/2006/01/pork_soup_leave.php

Sad, I say pathetic

It is sad that we've come to this point.

But this is the result of political-correctness gone mad.

Appeasers, apologists, bleeding-hearts-do-gooders who, in their naivete or whatever, actually do more harm in stirring the pot.

Political correctness. I would like to know who coined that phrase and kick them squarely in the n*ts.

You gotta let the steam come out...otherwise, it'll blow. We're lucky that the likes of Western Standard had in a way offered the relief of letting a few steam out.

Yes they let a few steam out(?)

Tolerance can only go so far. And when one reaches that breaking point, boy....the pendulum swings to the far end!

Just like you

[betsy]

Those who continue to bury their heads in the sand, refusing to see that there's more to these re-printing of cartoons than meets the eye....here's another case showing how the world is turning.

http://www.sploid.com/news/2006/01/pork_soup_leave.php

Sad, I say pathetic

It is sad that we've come to this point.

But this is the result of political-correctness gone mad.

Appeasers, apologists, bleeding-hearts-do-gooders who, in their naivete or whatever, actually do more harm in stirring the pot.

Political correctness. I would like to know who coined that phrase and kick them squarely in the n*ts.

You gotta let the steam come out...otherwise, it'll blow. We're lucky that the likes of Western Standard had in a way offered the relief of letting a few steam out.

Yes they let a few steam out(?)

Tolerance can only go so far. And when one reaches that breaking point, boy....the pendulum swings to the far end!

Just like you

Just for the record. I have posted those types of incidents....not because I condone them. My point is to show that people all over the world are starting to deal with situations in various means. Some respond by outright provocation, while others by making a stand...blatantly going against what is being demanded of them. Others retaliate in violence.

People are frustrated and exasperated. They are angry.

If I am labelled as someone who had swung to the far end...just for believing and saying that the Western Standard had done nothing wrong, then so be it. I am not going to apologize for it nor am I going to be ashamed of it.

[BubberMiley]

Yeah, Israel is in the mess they're in by appeasing the Palistineans for the past 60 years.