Liberal Daycare Program A Myth

[geoffrey]

When has the government ever provided a quality social service?

Hope springs eternal.

Good call.

[Concerned]

Melanie: I can't believe you are apologizing for any comment here, you had a valid point. The fact is that women still do bear the brunt of the responsibility in the household whether they work or do not work (your exasperated comments noted), which has historically been one of the reasons why women do not get as far ahead in their careers as their male colleagues, and do not command the same salary levels as their husbands do.

I agree with the comment that the CPC plan denotes choice, stay at home or not stay at home. However that does not address the problem that many parents may want to stay at home but cannot. Particularly people living in larger cities like Toronto or Vancouver where the price of real estate is extraordinarily high, either there are two working parents or they simply do not own a home. So distributing these cheques evenly among families who are able to afford a healthy lifestyle under one salary because they are living in less expensive areas, does not really represent fair distribution.

The bulk of the daycare money should be distributed to the areas that have the highest number of families with two working parents.

Betsy: There is much evidence supporting the fact that children who attend early daycare are better socialized and do better at school than children raised by stay at home parents. My two children are excellent examples. They are well socialized (my oldest consistently wins citizenship awards at school), and they are among the brightest in their classes. Mind you, I paid a very high price for expert daycare, a luxury that many women could not afford.

Not all daycare situations are ideal, but not all stay at home parents are good at educating/raising their children either. A better daycare system means more qualified people helping bring up our children. There are those women who choose to go to work and those that have to, but certainly both are deserving to have their children well looked after.

And Melanie, you know those banks and other business where women provide the bulk of the low priced labour....ya they would still exist. But we would be paying twice as much for the services if men were "manning" those positions. They won't work for 10-15 bucks an hour.

[betsy]

Betsy: There is much evidence supporting the fact that children who attend early daycare are better socialized and do better at school than children raised by stay at home parents. My two children are excellent examples. They are well socialized (my oldest consistently wins citizenship awards at school), and they are among the brightest in their classes. Mind you, I paid a very high price for expert daycare, a luxury that many women could not afford.

Oh I agree about the existence of positive effects on children who attend early daycare. However, this does not mean that chilkdren would not benefit from home. All it takes is a knowledgeable and dedicated parent who will make it a point that her children will learn those. Granted, I agree that not all mothers have the patience and the inclination to do those. But a lot do.

There are Group Play centres and parks where children and caregivers can meet and intermingle with others....so it's not like there will be no way to learn how to socialize.

My points are:

1. Why do you assume ALL parents are incapable of good judgement as far as making daycare decisions?

That the liberal-thinkers ought to make the decisions for them?

2. In the same token, why do we automatically assume that ALL home daycares are inferior, quality-wise?

We've seen public-funded daycares have had their shares of questionable standards/procedures...and yet you still maintain that ALL home daycares are not good for children.

3. We see what's happening to Quebec National Childcare. That is the blueprint for the National Childcare they want to open nationwide. Standards have already been lowered btw!

We see it failing...and wanting to be injected with more cash!

How much "transfusion" will it require?

4. The new studies show that children in Quebec National Childcare are WORSE OFF. You can say that you don't really agree with Quebec Childcare system....but this plan of the Liberals/NDP is modeled after Quebec!

Why do we want to spend astronomical amount of money on a failing system?

5. There will be ample spaces available from the current public daycares existing now, especially if Harper will go ahead with his plans. Public-funded agency operating in my area have a shortage of children actually...and this had been going on for years! Either they really pick-and-choose the kind of working parents (with ideal working schedules) they accomodate, or parents are avoiding them! They seem to be saving their limited spaces for parents with regular hours!

So there is really no cause for worry as far as spaces go!

Just make it mandatory that these public funded agencies/daycares accomodate people with non-regular schedules...for these are the people that needs the most help!

Isn't this why we finance such places? So there will be help for those parents who are not in any enviable position of having coshy 9-5 jobs...or any full-time hours for that matter?

6. Do you know how many daycare providers (mostly women, if this makes any difference at all) will be probably out of an income nation-wide? A lot of these people have chosen this career for a reason.

So most join the ranks of un-employed!

What of my friend who had done childcare for almost 20 years just so she can stay with her mentally-challenged daughter? She can't be the only one who is in this kind of predicament.

Don't say that we can all apply for a job at the institutionalized version of a daycare.

7. It's the bureacracy! That is the main reason why public daycares have a hard time keeping staff!

We've experienced firsthand the ridiculous amount of bureacracy...that's why at one point, careproviders had left the agency in droves!

[betsy]

I would like to pursue another branch of this topic...that focus on the what children really learn from daycares and how it affects them later in life and us in society. I will have to make another topic for it.

[betsy]

Quality has been defined in many ways, and you are right that caregiver turnover is an indicator of poor quality of care. But that isn't restricted to child care centres; unlicensed caregivers also often decide to look for other employment. The solution is to have good wages so people can actually earn a decent living, and to ensure that the ratios are such that caregivers aren't overloaded with too many children, leading not only to staff burnout but also to less individualized care.

But the frequency of caregiver turnover is not the same when you compare an institution to a private care.

Parents will have an idea what the chances are of a private caregiver suddenly quitting and looking for a much better income. You're only dealing with one caregiver.

When a caregiver is in the business for 10 years or so, chances are she'd still be around much longer. But it's a risk that everyone will have to take....for no one can predict what could happen down the road.

However, the institution has a "revolving door"....and we're not talking about children dealing with only one caregiver. We're talking about children dealing with several, depending on varying shifts and hours.

The bonding and sense of loss felt by children will be more likely to be frequent....the psychological effects will be more devastating!

So we up the wages. To how much? And if we do, will it stay capped for a few years...or will Union demand more?

The main cause of people quitting is what they call "burn-out." And too much bureaucracy is one of the reason why a lot of staff are burnt out.

[betsy]

Betsy, when you are worried about standards being lowered, think about what Harper has said about standards. Nothing. He is just giving money to parents and saying find whatever is out there.

Because it is up to the parents to find and decide on a caregiver that offers what coincides with the parents' idea of what "quality" ought to be.

Some parents just don't like their children insitutionalized in what looked like a cold setting of a building from day one. They want their very young children enjoying a home setting...the warmth and coziness, and flexibility that comes along with it.

Some parents believe that learning at an early age ought to be done through play. Let children be children.

So of course they'll go for a care provider who shares the same views and offers what the parents deem as right for their child.

[betsy]

tml, if any child is left outside, it is a crime, and whoever is responsible needs to be stripped of their license (assuming they are licensed) and charged with negligence. But that isn't indicitive of child care in general, just someone being incompetent. That is why ensuring quality is so important - incompetence in some jobs will just result in a minor blunder, but in child care it can have devastating results. I wonder, though, how you think the Conservative plan will guard against this kind of practice? Reducing the money going to wages, reducing the money going into training programs, reducing the money going into licensing and regulating bodies, is likely to have an even more detrimental effect. And regardless of $1200, families will still need child care.

But aren't those daycares such as the one mentioned by Tml gone through training programs? Isn't it supposed to be regulated?

In other words...regulating and endless training programs may help...but offers no guarantee. So they are the same as that of unlicensed daycares.

It would be better then if Harper pours money into providing training programs for EVERYONE interested...including parents!

[betsy]

And Melanie, you know those banks and other business where women provide the bulk of the low priced labour....ya they would still exist. But we would be paying twice as much for the services if men were "manning" those positions. They won't work for 10-15 bucks an hour.

I thought there's equal pay now?

Besides, who do you think fork over the extra expenses for maternity leave? Hiring someobody to fill in while the mother is on a year-long leave? Sick child leave? Where does the money come from?

You bet it's tacked onto prices...which the consumers have to pay.

So taxpayers (being consumers) get a double whammy!

And what happens when the business decide to close down eventually and open somewhere in Tiki-Tiki island ...just so they can compete? Who eventually loses a job?

[Melanie_]

Some parents just don't like their children insitutionalized in what looked like a cold setting of a building from day one. They want their very young children enjoying a home setting...the warmth and coziness, and flexibility that comes along with it.

Some parents believe that learning at an early age ought to be done through play. Let children be children.

So of course they'll go for a care provider who shares the same views and offers what the parents deem as right for their child.

I have never said that I don't value family child care providers. They are a very important part of the system, and can often provide the flexibility child care centres cannot, but I still believe they should be subject to inspections and regulations.

I don't know what child care settings you've been in, but the ones I know (and I see many on a regular basis) are generally designed to be warm and cozy, not the institutional box you are determined to evoke. The value of learning through play is part of any good child care program, with toys and activities chosen based on the ages of the children and a recognition of the stages of development they are in, as well as through observing their interests and building on them.

As for the value of training programs, I am a college instructor in child development, so I have a bias. I can't answer for the training of the people in Quebec, but as I've said before, the Quebec system expanded quickly, trying to meet the needs of families without ensuring that the best quality care was available for children. You can't train common sense into people, anyway - bringing kids in out of the cold is a no-brainer.

[betsy]

I have never said that I don't value family child care providers. They are a very important part of the system, and can often provide the flexibility child care centres cannot, but I still believe they should be subject to inspections and regulations.

I agree. There should be some regulations. The Day Nurseries Act is already there.

If there will be any inspections, I would like to see The Ministry getting directly involved in it. I envision getting inspected the same way as food industry gets inspected by Health and Safety. Random. With consistent rules...the power not there to be abused.

A lot of us want to keep operating as independent businesses. We are willing to follow regulations.

You wouldn't believe the petty nonsense we have to put up with the agency doing inspection for their homes. They make up their own rules as they go along. There is no consistency. I find it too unprofessional.

Being under a licensing agency opens up to unfair treatment and unfair opportunities for those subjected to be under them...for they wield the power as to whom to give what clientele. Careprovider A may be given all the choice clients with regular hours thus her spaces are neatly filled up by full-time children...whereas Caregiver B may be given all the crappy schedules, a motley mixed of drop ins and part-timers filling up her spaces....thereby, earning potentials are vastly different between the two.

This agency had broken its own rules. On various occasions with various caregivers. I was one of them.

[Melanie_]

Your system operates so differently from the one here. Licensed family child care providers are inspected every three months at minimum by the government licensing body, but are completely free agents in terms of who they provide care for, the hours they set, etc. Parents apply for subsidy and are approved or not based on their incomes, but they can freely choose any centre or licensed family child care home in the system. Here licensed homes really do operate as independent businesses, but as I said are still subject to the licensing and regulatory requirements.

[betsy]

Your system operates so differently from the one here. Licensed family child care providers are inspected every three months at minimum by the government licensing body, but are completely free agents in terms of who they provide care for, the hours they set, etc. Parents apply for subsidy and are approved or not based on their incomes, but they can freely choose any centre or licensed family child care home in the system. Here licensed homes really do operate as independent businesses, but as I said are still subject to the licensing and regulatory requirements.

Oh dear, that's the kind of system I want!

There truly is a big disparity between services among provinces then....from healthcare to this!

[Spike22]

Great more people wanting more of my money instead of raising their own kids. For single mothers Ok but for parents make the sacrifice and raise them yourself like we did. The career if you really want kids can wait. Put you priorities straight: country, family, self, career in that order.

As for the daycare program there is nothing standardized in this country. PQ gets daycare for $7 a day, others pay $20-50 a day. I think the conservative 1200 a year plan is acceptable without bustin' my wallet for raising your kids.

[Concerned]

Your system operates so differently from the one here. Licensed family child care providers are inspected every three months at minimum by the government licensing body, but are completely free agents in terms of who they provide care for, the hours they set, etc. Parents apply for subsidy and are approved or not based on their incomes, but they can freely choose any centre or licensed family child care home in the system. Here licensed homes really do operate as independent businesses, but as I said are still subject to the licensing and regulatory requirements.

Oh dear, that's the kind of system I want!

There truly is a big disparity between services among provinces then....from healthcare to this!

Well its nice that you guys at least have a system. And Betsy, your comments that at home day care is better than institutionalized daycare, all valid arguments. But for some families its a matter of survival. Parents living in Vancouver with its high priced real estate largely driven by huge equity/off shore money coming here through the eighties, face having to have two incomes or not owning a home.

Personally, I am a career woman and choose to work regardless of the daycare situation, or home prices, and as far as I am concerned that is a warranted choice that should be supported by my government, even if it just means having approriate taxes writeoffs to accomodate for adequate daycare.

When I had my first two boys 9 and 8 years ago, there were NO daycare choices that suited a full time working mom in my area. My choice was to hire a nanny. She was untrained by any institution in Canada, and in fact was from the Phillipines and barely spoke English. By the time my kids reached the age of 3, I had to enroll them into Montessori preschool in order for them to have the early childhood education I felt that their brilliant little minds required. That meant an additional $750 per month for 2.5 hours per day. Couldn't get rid of the nanny because I needed her for drop off and pick up since the school hours were in the middle of the day. With daycare costs of over $2800 per month, you might want to wonder how most women here do it. Granted my kids got better care because I spent the money, but funny that it had to come out of my disposable income when no other choices were available.

Now in smaller towns I don't wonder that the daycare facilities that are available are not even remotely full. That is because there are many stay at home moms and easier to find one if you happen to be a working mom needing some help. In my neighbourhood, and amongst ALL of my friends I know not ONE stay at home mom.

So my point exactly, is why would mom's in smaller towns who have easy access to inexpensive childcare and/or can also easily stay at home with their kids (and according to you, Betsy should be ).....get $100 per month, and in big cities like Vancouver where women are 1. choosing to go to work and 2. having no choice but to go to work, get the same sort of benefit ?? (in fact less because its taxable and we in the city are likely to be in a higher tax bracket) This is not an equitable system as far as I am concerned.

And...oh Spike 22.....

Women who are professionals who choose careers often pay more in taxes and therefore contribute to the economy, they are not a drag on the economy, and a little bit of these taxes that we pay being allocated to some sort of daycare or at least full daycare writeoff would be appropriate. I pay more in taxes annually than an average Canadian family (dual income) earns in wages. That is not including the taxes my company pays. I also employ 8 staff members and support their wages and their taxes and therefore am increasing the Canadian tax base. And you're saying I should stay at home?? I have normal healthy kids who are doing very well at school and have done a good job raising them with the help of my expensive daycare, and that is the program I will be sticking with. I just think that not getting the full writeoff is a bit of a piss off when the much of the rest of Canada is getting an allowance they may or may not even need.

[August1991]

Personally, I am a career woman and choose to work regardless of the daycare situation, or home prices, and as far as I am concerned that is a warranted choice that should be supported by my government, even if it just means having approriate taxes writeoffs to accomodate for adequate daycare.

Personally, I am an artist and choose to create art regardless of the regular job market situation, or home prices, and as far as I am concerned that is a warranted choice that should be supported by my government, even if it just means having approriate taxes writeoffs to accomodate for adequate studio space.

Art is the world's future - without culture, we are not civilized.

[Spike22]

Your system operates so differently from the one here. Licensed family child care providers are inspected every three months at minimum by the government licensing body, but are completely free agents in terms of who they provide care for, the hours they set, etc. Parents apply for subsidy and are approved or not based on their incomes, but they can freely choose any centre or licensed family child care home in the system. Here licensed homes really do operate as independent businesses, but as I said are still subject to the licensing and regulatory requirements.

Oh dear, that's the kind of system I want!

There truly is a big disparity between services among provinces then....from healthcare to this!

Well its nice that you guys at least have a system. And Betsy, your comments that at home day care is better than institutionalized daycare, all valid arguments. But for some families its a matter of survival. Parents living in Vancouver with its high priced real estate largely driven by huge equity/off shore money coming here through the eighties, face having to have two incomes or not owning a home.

Personally, I am a career woman and choose to work regardless of the daycare situation, or home prices, and as far as I am concerned that is a warranted choice that should be supported by my government, even if it just means having approriate taxes writeoffs to accomodate for adequate daycare.

When I had my first two boys 9 and 8 years ago, there were NO daycare choices that suited a full time working mom in my area. My choice was to hire a nanny. She was untrained by any institution in Canada, and in fact was from the Phillipines and barely spoke English. By the time my kids reached the age of 3, I had to enroll them into Montessori preschool in order for them to have the early childhood education I felt that their brilliant little minds required. That meant an additional $750 per month for 2.5 hours per day. Couldn't get rid of the nanny because I needed her for drop off and pick up since the school hours were in the middle of the day. With daycare costs of over $2800 per month, you might want to wonder how most women here do it. Granted my kids got better care because I spent the money, but funny that it had to come out of my disposable income when no other choices were available.

Now in smaller towns I don't wonder that the daycare facilities that are available are not even remotely full. That is because there are many stay at home moms and easier to find one if you happen to be a working mom needing some help. In my neighbourhood, and amongst ALL of my friends I know not ONE stay at home mom.

So my point exactly, is why would mom's in smaller towns who have easy access to inexpensive childcare and/or can also easily stay at home with their kids (and according to you, Betsy should be ).....get $100 per month, and in big cities like Vancouver where women are 1. choosing to go to work and 2. having no choice but to go to work, get the same sort of benefit ?? (in fact less because its taxable and we in the city are likely to be in a higher tax bracket) This is not an equitable system as far as I am concerned.

And...oh Spike 22.....

Women who are professionals who choose careers often pay more in taxes and therefore contribute to the economy, they are not a drag on the economy, and a little bit of these taxes that we pay being allocated to some sort of daycare or at least full daycare writeoff would be appropriate. I pay more in taxes annually than an average Canadian family (dual income) earns in wages. That is not including the taxes my company pays. I also employ 8 staff members and support their wages and their taxes and therefore am increasing the Canadian tax base. And you're saying I should stay at home?? I have normal healthy kids who are doing very well at school and have done a good job raising them with the help of my expensive daycare, and that is the program I will be sticking with. I just think that not getting the full writeoff is a bit of a piss off when the much of the rest of Canada is getting an allowance they may or may not even need.

So in your case money rules. How I long for the good old days in the 1950's and 60's when the mother raised the children not strangers. Fortunately your family sounds like they are doing well thanks to expensive daycare - by all accounts you can easily afford it. Are you not the least bit guilty letting someone else do your and your significant others work raising the family? My wife and I sacrificed until all the kids were in school full time until we both resumed our regular work routines - if there is a will there is a way unfortunmately families come last nowdays and the almighty buck rules.

[Montgomery Burns]

Melanie:

When we talk about government involvement, what is it that we mean? For me, the most important consideration is that the people who care for the kids are warm and nurturing, which can't be regulated, but also that there are standards that are met - Criminal Records checks, Child Abuse Registry checks, fire and safety precautions taken, and an understanding of what is best for children.

And the govt is the solution for things like this?

QUEBEC (CP) - A day care where a 13-month-old baby was left outside sleeping for nearly five hours says it will no longer take children outside for their naps. Last month, Joel Tremblay and Claire Ferland were told their son was left sleeping outside at the Centre Le Petit Bourg day care for four hours and 40 minutes. A staff member told the parents that they decided to let the baby sleep rather than wake him and bring him inside. The temperature on Jan. 20 dropped to just below freezing and the boy was not awakened to be fed at lunch time. When Tremblay arrived to pick up his son, the baby's feet were cold and red.

And I am not going to even get into how costly a bloated govt bureaucracy with unionized govt workers--who went on strike the very first year in Quebec--will cost the Canadian taxpayer...

[Montgomery Burns]

Melanie,

I've seen your posts and I understand that you look to the govt as the solution for everything, but you are unfair to private business. My friend has a home daycare and she is a wonderful loving person, and I would trust her with children more than I would some govt employee.

No system is perfect, but at least there is competition in private business. If you don't do a good job, wave bye-bye to your business.

I trust a parent's judgement when it comes to choosing a daycare for their childern. Indeed, I trust the parent much more than I trust the govt--any govt, including a conservative govt, even though I voted for Harper.

[Melanie_]

Monty -

I don't think I have ever said that I don't trust a parent's judgment. Having licensing regulations doesn't impede a parent from making a choice, it just reassures them that the options they have to choose from have already passed the Child Abuse Registry check, the Criminal Records check, and have met basic health and safety standards. I have no beef with private business, as long as they adhere to the regulations and standards that have been set by the licensing body.

A misconception you and several others seem to have is that people who work in child care centres are government employees. In the Manitoba system, most centres are non profit, and are run by a board of directors made up of parents of children in the program. They hire a director for the program, who hires staff. The government provides some funding in the form of operating grants based on the number of children a program can accomodate, subsidies for low income families, and grants to include children with special needs. They also inspects regularly to ensure compliance with the regulations, but otherwise each program is independently run. In fact, parents have much more input into non profit centres than they do into privately owned centres.

[Concerned]

Your system operates so differently from the one here. Licensed family child care providers are inspected every three months at minimum by the government licensing body, but are completely free agents in terms of who they provide care for, the hours they set, etc. Parents apply for subsidy and are approved or not based on their incomes, but they can freely choose any centre or licensed family child care home in the system. Here licensed homes really do operate as independent businesses, but as I said are still subject to the licensing and regulatory requirements.

Oh dear, that's the kind of system I want!

There truly is a big disparity between services among provinces then....from healthcare to this!

Well its nice that you guys at least have a system. And Betsy, your comments that at home day care is better than institutionalized daycare, all valid arguments. But for some families its a matter of survival. Parents living in Vancouver with its high priced real estate largely driven by huge equity/off shore money coming here through the eighties, face having to have two incomes or not owning a home.

Personally, I am a career woman and choose to work regardless of the daycare situation, or home prices, and as far as I am concerned that is a warranted choice that should be supported by my government, even if it just means having approriate taxes writeoffs to accomodate for adequate daycare.

When I had my first two boys 9 and 8 years ago, there were NO daycare choices that suited a full time working mom in my area. My choice was to hire a nanny. She was untrained by any institution in Canada, and in fact was from the Phillipines and barely spoke English. By the time my kids reached the age of 3, I had to enroll them into Montessori preschool in order for them to have the early childhood education I felt that their brilliant little minds required. That meant an additional $750 per month for 2.5 hours per day. Couldn't get rid of the nanny because I needed her for drop off and pick up since the school hours were in the middle of the day. With daycare costs of over $2800 per month, you might want to wonder how most women here do it. Granted my kids got better care because I spent the money, but funny that it had to come out of my disposable income when no other choices were available.

Now in smaller towns I don't wonder that the daycare facilities that are available are not even remotely full. That is because there are many stay at home moms and easier to find one if you happen to be a working mom needing some help. In my neighbourhood, and amongst ALL of my friends I know not ONE stay at home mom.

So my point exactly, is why would mom's in smaller towns who have easy access to inexpensive childcare and/or can also easily stay at home with their kids (and according to you, Betsy should be ).....get $100 per month, and in big cities like Vancouver where women are 1. choosing to go to work and 2. having no choice but to go to work, get the same sort of benefit ?? (in fact less because its taxable and we in the city are likely to be in a higher tax bracket) This is not an equitable system as far as I am concerned.

And...oh Spike 22.....

Women who are professionals who choose careers often pay more in taxes and therefore contribute to the economy, they are not a drag on the economy, and a little bit of these taxes that we pay being allocated to some sort of daycare or at least full daycare writeoff would be appropriate. I pay more in taxes annually than an average Canadian family (dual income) earns in wages. That is not including the taxes my company pays. I also employ 8 staff members and support their wages and their taxes and therefore am increasing the Canadian tax base. And you're saying I should stay at home?? I have normal healthy kids who are doing very well at school and have done a good job raising them with the help of my expensive daycare, and that is the program I will be sticking with. I just think that not getting the full writeoff is a bit of a piss off when the much of the rest of Canada is getting an allowance they may or may not even need.

So in your case money rules. How I long for the good old days in the 1950's and 60's when the mother raised the children not strangers. Fortunately your family sounds like they are doing well thanks to expensive daycare - by all accounts you can easily afford it. Are you not the least bit guilty letting someone else do your and your significant others work raising the family? My wife and I sacrificed until all the kids were in school full time until we both resumed our regular work routines - if there is a will there is a way unfortunmately families come last nowdays and the almighty buck rules.

And I bet you it was your wife who stayed home ! Yes, I can afford it and that was my good fortune. I spent my time at my career as that was my passion, not doing dishes and laundry. It worked out for the better financially....that however does not mean that somebody else is raising my family. It is possible to have outside help and still be a good mom/parent....foreign concept to you maybe but I have MANY friends that do it, and their kids are outstanding. I dare to compare my children to those raised by their moms, not all moms are perfect child raisers either. And no, I do not feel guilty at all, in fact my third baby will be raised the same way...my family does not come last, they come first honey. Its just a different way of dealing with things.

August, studio space is a writeoff. Unfortunately, you have to have a revenue to write it off against !!

[Bryan]

I don't think I have ever said that I don't trust a parent's judgment. Having licensing regulations doesn't impede a parent from making a choice, it just reassures them that the options they have to choose from have already passed the Child Abuse Registry check, the Criminal Records check, and have met basic health and safety standards. I have no beef with private business, as long as they adhere to the regulations and standards that have been set by the licensing body.

On this I strongly disagree. I WANT my daughter's childcare giver to be unlicenced. How I want my children being cared for and how the Government might want are not necessarily the same thing. I need to know that if/when the two might conflict, it is MY wishes that will be heeded, not the Government's.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I don't think I have ever said that I don't trust a parent's judgment. Having licensing regulations doesn't impede a parent from making a choice, it just reassures them that the options they have to choose from have already passed the Child Abuse Registry check, the Criminal Records check, and have met basic health and safety standards. I have no beef with private business, as long as they adhere to the regulations and standards that have been set by the licensing body.

On this I strongly disagree. I WANT my daughter's childcare giver to be unlicenced. How I want my children being cared for and how the Government might want are not necessarily the same thing. I need to know that if/when the two might conflict, it is MY wishes that will be heeded, not the Government's.

I agree, Bryan. A government license can only lead to government sanctioned curriculum....next thing you know my son is learning about how its ok for tinky winky the gay teletubby to play with handsome poolboys...all in the name of tolerance and sensitivity.

[scribblet]

The municipality of Kingston recently announced that it may have to rethink' its child care plan in light of the fact that Harper intends to cancel federal funding for provinces creating child care 'spaces'.

Get this!; the $2.3 million earmarked for the project was touted to be creating 160 child care spaces.- thats about $14,375 per space. What in ell are these seats, in a pre-kindergarten class or rescue helicopters?!

Gee whiz folks, am I the only one who is shocked and appalled that the Liberals could shill for a National

Day Care program that will cost Canadian tax payers nearly $15k per child per year? If their stated goal of providing 1 million new 'spaces' were realized, it would add $15 Billion! to the federal budget. That is insane.

Of course by liberal government standards they might think its a bargain - before Harris the Ontario

government was spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for every "affordable" housing unit built by the government. I suspect that the McGuinty Liberals are back at it now with their spending on new "affordable" housing in Toronto. This is one of the reasons why government shouldn't be in the business of running business.

Of course they're not really in business. The Liberal plan wasn't about providing child care, it was about lining the pockets of the Liberal establishment. The more government spending there is, the more that can be siphoned off for friends.

This is one of the reasons that they are so hysterically opposed to the Conservative plan. So many people are being cut off from the gravy train.

[geoffrey]

The municipality of Kingston recently announced that it may have to rethink' its child care plan in light of the fact that Harper intends to cancel federal funding for provinces creating child care 'spaces'.

Get this!; the $2.3 million earmarked for the project was touted to be creating 160 child care spaces.- thats about $14,375 per space. What in ell are these seats, in a pre-kindergarten class or rescue helicopters?!

Gee whiz folks, am I the only one who is shocked and appalled that the Liberals could shill for a National

Day Care program that will cost Canadian tax payers nearly $15k per child per year? If their stated goal of providing 1 million new 'spaces' were realized, it would add $15 Billion! to the federal budget. That is insane.

Of course by liberal government standards they might think its a bargain - before Harris the Ontario

government was spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for every "affordable" housing unit built by the government. I suspect that the McGuinty Liberals are back at it now with their spending on new "affordable" housing in Toronto. This is one of the reasons why government shouldn't be in the business of running business.

Of course they're not really in business. The Liberal plan wasn't about providing child care, it was about lining the pockets of the Liberal establishment. The more government spending there is, the more that can be siphoned off for friends.

This is one of the reasons that they are so hysterically opposed to the Conservative plan. So many people are being cut off from the gravy train.

$14,000 a space?? Are you serious? How many kids am I allowed to take care of at once. I'll watch a whole possy of them and supply a building with toys and stuff if I get a few hundred thousand out of it.

I'll just call up my nearest Liberal MP... 10 hours away by car.