Evangelical Harper

[Riverwind]

Sparhawk, you know just because the majority believes it doesn't make it right.

When I say majority I am talking overwhelming majority: 90% or more. If the majority is less than that then government should err on the side of individual choice.

That means SSM should not be prohibited because some people have a moral problem with homosexuality.

The issue is capital punishment is the imperfect justice system and the risk that an innocent person could be put to death. For that reason the government should protect the innocent person that could be executed.

Every moral issue where there is not an overwhelming concensus should be resolved by allowing individuals to make choices that are right for them.

[betsy]

But who speaks for that little human whose life is getting snuffed?

Your beliefs may tell you that a fetus is a human but you must accept that the majority of people living in this society do not share that view. If some radical shift occurred and suddenly there was an overwhelming consensus (>90%) that a fetus is human then government restrictions on abortion could be justified. However, that unlikely to happen in our diverse society so the only reasonable approach it to allow individual people to decide what is right for them and keep the government out of it.

But don't you see how this gets stretched? Before, correct me if I'm wrong, abortion was allowed up to three months of pregnancy. Now, just because the definition of what "human" should mean was diddled around, they can now manipulate a full-term baby so that it doesn't fall under the definition of "human".

Our diverse society has "evolved" or devolved into a self-absorbed, hedonistic society....where the "I, me,mine" philosophy rules. Just read the justifications they give for just about everything and you get the picture where they're coming from.

What next?

Further manipulation of the law so it will be okay to....

Justify snuffing a week-old baby? Two-weeks old? A crippled baby? A high-maintenance 1 year old?

I wouldn't be surprised if post-partum blues will be manipulated to play a very significant justifiable reason for this. After all, the baby adds to the problem the mother endures. Make her a very young single mom who writhes in poverty and you'll hear society clamoring for the baby's death!

[betsy]

I think we should send pregnant women that want an abortion to Mexico or some other tropical climate that does not ask questions when you want an abortion and Canada can stay out of the controversy.

I think we should just send abortion opponents to Iran and to give them an opportunity to ask themselves whether they really want to live in a society where the religious views of some are imposed by the state on all.

Funny you should mention that. I was thinking we should send all liberal do-gooders to Iran and start promoting women's right to abortion, alternative lifestyles, including SSM...after all, there is already polygamy in that society...it shouldn't be too hard to sell them the concept of stretching it just a wee bit further. And while they're there...they can even volunteer as human shields.

[betsy]

Gee, who are the people who campaign vigorously against comprehensive sex ed, condoms in schools, th emorning after pill and just about every means of prevention and sex education out there? Hint: it ain't the "liberal thinkers".

Well, if it's already there, why not make use of it? After all, didn't the liberal thinkers campaigned vigorously to show the benefits of having those?

Aren't those supposed to be the "answers", according to Liberal-thinkers?

[betsy]

The point I'm trying to make is that the situation is very personal and each individual will have their own set of circumstances surrounding their decision.

Yes, but if you really analyse the real reason behind such personal decisions for most people....you will see it's very "personal" indeed. Personal gratification, without wanting to take responsibility for the action.

[Riverwind]

Justify snuffing a week-old baby? Two-weeks old? A crippled baby? A high-maintenance 1 year old?

There is a 90%+ consensus in our society that a baby is human once it is delivered. In other words, it is reasonable for society to say deliberately killing a child at that point is murder. Before that point there is no social consensus so leaving the choice to individuals is the best.

Yes, but if you really analyse the real reason behind such personal decisions for most people....you will see it's very "personal" indeed. Personal gratification, without wanting to take responsibility for the action.

At what is the real reason behind people who go on moral crusades against perceived evils? Ego gratification is often the primary reason.

[betsy]

There is a 90%+ consensus in our society that a baby is human once it is delivered. In other words, it is reasonable for society to say deliberately killing a child at that point is murder. Before that point there is no social consensus so leaving the choice to individuals is the best.

That's what we've been saying! They can now manipulate around that legality....that's why, a full-term baby is forced breached and it's head crushed while it's still inside the womb....because at that point, they say since it's not fully delivered, it's still not human!

Thanks for proving my point.

[betsy]

Yes, but if you really analyse the real reason behind such personal decisions for most people....you will see it's very "personal" indeed. Personal gratification, without wanting to take responsibility for the action.

At what is the real reason behind people who go on moral crusades against perceived evils? Ego gratification is often the primary reason.

Whatever kind of gratification one may wish to attach to our reasoning, the fact remains that our moral crusades do not involve murder.

What do you mean by "perceived" evil. There is nothing "perceived" about it.

It's plain and a fact. Society is condoning and encouraging murder of the innocents!

[Black Dog]

You can't really blame me for the actions of others. There are lots of us conservative folk that would rather have condoms accessible to kids rather than have them getting abortions. Though any sex-ed program should include some stuff on abstaining until your at least out of junior high. Really it is in the kids best interest, other than this have sex with everyone approach they take now.

Right because adults telling teenagers to not do something is always an effective strategy for prevention. Seriously, though: absitinence should me mentioned, but not made the sole focus.

Funny you should mention that. I was thinking we should send all liberal do-gooders to Iran and start promoting women's right to abortion, alternative lifestyles, including SSM...after all, there is already polygamy in that society...it shouldn't be too hard to sell them the concept of stretching it just a wee bit further. And while they're there...they can even volunteer as human shields

No thanks: wy would I want to hang around in a country run by people like you?

Well, if it's already there, why not make use of it? After all, didn't the liberal thinkers campaigned vigorously to show the benefits of having those?

Aren't those supposed to be the "answers", according to Liberal-thinkers?

Comprehensive sex education and information about contraception, as well as ensuring the availability of contraception, is the best way to reduce unwanted pregancies. That's why pro-choice groups like Planned Parenthood have made that a big part of their agenda (and are usually fought tooth and nail by the conservative, religious right). And that has been an effective strategy for reducing unwanted pregnancies, but its not a magic bullet.

Yes, but if you really analyse the real reason behind such personal decisions for most people....you will see it's very "personal" indeed. Personal gratification, without wanting to take responsibility for the action.

You know, someone's personal reasons for not wanting to carry their pregnancy to term is none of your business.

Whatever kind of gratification one may wish to attach to our reasoning, the fact remains that our moral crusades do not involve murder.

No, they it just involves threats, violence (such as bombing clinics) and -oops!- murder (a sin the murder of abortion doctors).

[Spike22]

I think we should send pregnant women that want an abortion to Mexico or some other tropical climate that does not ask questions when you want an abortion and Canada can stay out of the controversy. We will supply the mother and one guest of her choice with some much needed R&R while performing the procedure outside our borders. Now lets all get jiggy and look forward to that trip south. [remember girls get knocked up late fall early winter so you can get to go south in the dead of winter]

Spike, spike, spike... you always take things one step too far.

geofffrey you are a baboon you wouldn't know sarcastic humour (or any other) if it bit you in the ass.

[na85]

For all the bible-thumpers out there, would you still be anti-abortion if I slipped your high-school daughter a roofie and did the nasty? What if she got pregnant? Dropping out of school would pretty much ruin her life.

[Wilber]

For all the bible-thumpers out there, would you still be anti-abortion if I slipped your high-school daughter a roofie and did the nasty? What if she got pregnant? Dropping out of school would pretty much ruin her life.

I'm sure people will still be debating this long after I'm gone and that is how it should be. It is far too important an issue to become complacent.

I'm not religious. I would be an atheist except for the fact that I can't prove there is no supreme being any more than a believer can prove there is, therefore I am an agnostic.

I've always thought of myself as pro choice. I think I can appreciate how difficult a decision this would be for most people so I won't second guess them, categorize them or call them names.

I do firmly believe, although I am the first to admit I don't know exactly when, that there comes a point when an abortion is in fact, taking a human life. I do get angry when people try to blow it off as just "a bundle of cells". We are all just "a bundle of cells". I'll respect their decision but not their dishonesty.

In another thread FTA Lawyer asked "WTF does this have to with jail sentences and bail conditions for violent crime?" Good question but I do think it has one thing in common.

More and more our society is putting "responsibility" a distant second to "rights", if in reality it is considered at all.

[geoffrey]

For all the bible-thumpers out there, would you still be anti-abortion if I slipped your high-school daughter a roofie and did the nasty? What if she got pregnant? Dropping out of school would pretty much ruin her life.

I'd probably start by killing you.

[betsy]

For all the bible-thumpers out there, would you still be anti-abortion if I slipped your high-school daughter a roofie and did the nasty? What if she got pregnant? Dropping out of school would pretty much ruin her life.

I'll gladly help my daughter raise your kid. And as for you, you better hide where I won't find you. My bible-thumping way will not show mercy to you!

[na85]

I'd probably start by killing you.

[Black Dog]

na85

Don't you find it interesting that you put forward a hypothetical scenario (a question someone on the anti-abortion side should certainly consider) which elicited no thoughtful; responses, only macho posturing. It's amost as if they don't want to answer...

[southerncomfort]

Whats the point of answering, its a no win situation, there are those for and those against. Each has their own point of view. I'm pro-choice but not pro-abortion, its between a woman and her conscience. Mindyou, I draw the line at late terms.

[tml12]

For all the bible-thumpers out there, would you still be anti-abortion if I slipped your high-school daughter a roofie and did the nasty? What if she got pregnant? Dropping out of school would pretty much ruin her life.

I am pro-abortion through the first month with severe restrictions afterwards.

So yeah, my daughter would get an abortion and since I am only a year older than you I would hunt you down and beat the sh*t out of you.

[tml12]

na85

Don't you find it interesting that you put forward a hypothetical scenario (a question someone on the anti-abortion side should certainly consider) which elicited no thoughtful; responses, only macho posturing. It's amost as if they don't want to answer...

Way to affirm the cause Black Dog...

[Riverwind]

I am pro-abortion through the first month with severe restrictions afterwards.

Limiting it to the first month is a quite unreasonable. Many teens with irregular periods would not realize they were pregnant for up to three months.

[na85]

na85

Don't you find it interesting that you put forward a hypothetical scenario (a question someone on the anti-abortion side should certainly consider) which elicited no thoughtful; responses, only macho posturing. It's amost as if they don't want to answer...

I expected no less than angry retorts. The same people who hate killing babies would kill me. Interesting how morality works.

[geoffrey]

na85

Don't you find it interesting that you put forward a hypothetical scenario (a question someone on the anti-abortion side should certainly consider) which elicited no thoughtful; responses, only macho posturing. It's amost as if they don't want to answer...

I expected no less than angry retorts. The same people who hate killing babies would kill me. Interesting how morality works.

Freaks that knock up girls for fun would be close to the top of my list for capital punishment... maybe it wouldn't result in death, just a real good ass kicking. A good ol' fashion castration of the sexual predator might be in order.

I'd help the daughter raise the child and encourage her not to have an abortion.

[Wilber]

na85

Don't you find it interesting that you put forward a hypothetical scenario (a question someone on the anti-abortion side should certainly consider) which elicited no thoughtful; responses, only macho posturing. It's amost as if they don't want to answer...

I expected no less than angry retorts. The same people who hate killing babies would kill me. Interesting how morality works.

Does that mean you do think it is killing babies or was that a Freudian slip?

[tml12]

na85

Don't you find it interesting that you put forward a hypothetical scenario (a question someone on the anti-abortion side should certainly consider) which elicited no thoughtful; responses, only macho posturing. It's amost as if they don't want to answer...

I expected no less than angry retorts. The same people who hate killing babies would kill me. Interesting how morality works.

dude you said you would hypothetically sneek through my chimney and screw my hypothetical daughter.

And I never said I would kill you...I said I would straighten you out...

[tml12]

na85

Don't you find it interesting that you put forward a hypothetical scenario (a question someone on the anti-abortion side should certainly consider) which elicited no thoughtful; responses, only macho posturing. It's amost as if they don't want to answer...

I expected no less than angry retorts. The same people who hate killing babies would kill me. Interesting how morality works.

Freaks that knock up girls for fun would be close to the top of my list for capital punishment... maybe it wouldn't result in death, just a real good ass kicking. A good ol' fashion castration of the sexual predator might be in order.

I'd help the daughter raise the child and encourage her not to have an abortion.

I'm with you geoffrey...you left-handed? Because I got his right-side covered...