The Cartoon Dispute

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

Do you think a fundamentalist Islamic definition of free speech should apply in Canada?

No specific religion should dictate parameters, but they should be consulted regarding 'hate crimes'.

http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp...d=2&item=zundel

Should it be illegal for Canadians to ridicule certain religious figures? Should it be illegal for Canadians to question certain religious practices?

Where should the line be drawn between free speech and 'hate literature'? There should be a line, but it should not be up to any one specific group to define it.

http://www.priestsrapeboys.com/

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/

Should these above sites be 'illegal'? Censorship is a slippery slope indeed.

[Guest American Woman]

We think because we have freedom of speech, they should respect that. They should apply our laws to their world. That's not going to happen at this time any more than we're going to apply their laws to ours.

The cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper in Denmark. The protests against free speech occurred in London.

Do you think a fundamentalist Islamic definition of free speech should apply in Canada? Should it be illegal for Canadians to ridicule certain religious figures? Should it be illegal for Canadians to question certain religious practices?

I'm not saying it should be illegal. I'm saying it would be wise to respect their feelings. As I said, with rights comes responsiblity. We wouldn't goad and insult someone pointing a loaded gun at us just because we have the right. We know that insulting Allah will provoke the extremists to kill, yet we choose to be more concerned about our right to do so than we are with the very likely consequence. We can't control their response, but we can control our actions.

And as I said, we can't expect them to respect our laws when we don't respect our laws outside of our country. We seem to want it all. We seem to think it's all about us and our wants and desires. We see it only through our eyes. How civilized is it to drop bombs on innocent people? How is it any more right to kill for our wants and desires than it is to kill for insulting Allah?

We should be able to insult Allah, and we can. But there will be consequencs. So is it worth it? Or would it make more sense in this troubled world to respect Allah? Wouldn't we all benefit more from that? Hopefully this isn't just a headstrong game of "we have that right so no one is going to stop us." Hopefully it isn't just a power struggle between them and us. It needs to go deeper than that. There has to be respect. Someone has to be the first to give that respect. Someone has to make the first move.

Nothing we've been doing so far has done anything to help solve the problem. I don't remember who said it, but it's true that if you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting. We need to change what we are doing.

[scribblet]

We think because we have freedom of speech, they should respect that. They should apply our laws to their world. That's not going to happen at this time any more than we're going to apply their laws to ours.

The cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper in Denmark. The protests against free speech occurred in London.

Do you think a fundamentalist Islamic definition of free speech should apply in Canada? Should it be illegal for Canadians to ridicule certain religious figures? Should it be illegal for Canadians to question certain religious practices?

NO!!

What the Muslim rioters are saying is: "If you don't restrict freedom of speech, we will burn down your buildings and kill your people" Why should we succomb to this blackmail, and where will it end? This is an opportunity for the western gov'ts to stand up to these radicals and take a firm stand - including Canada.

[moderateamericain]

We think because we have freedom of speech, they should respect that. They should apply our laws to their world. That's not going to happen at this time any more than we're going to apply their laws to ours.

The cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper in Denmark. The protests against free speech occurred in London.

Do you think a fundamentalist Islamic definition of free speech should apply in Canada? Should it be illegal for Canadians to ridicule certain religious figures? Should it be illegal for Canadians to question certain religious practices?

I'm not saying it should be illegal. I'm saying it would be wise to respect their feelings. As I said, with rights comes responsiblity. We wouldn't goad and insult someone pointing a loaded gun at us just because we have the right. We know that insulting Allah will provoke the extremists to kill, yet we choose to be more concerned about our right to do so than we are with the very likely consequence. We can't control their response, but we can control our actions.

And as I said, we can't expect them to respect our laws when we don't respect our laws outside of our country. We seem to want it all. We seem to think it's all about us and our wants and desires. We see it only through our eyes. How civilized is it to drop bombs on innocent people? How is it any more right to kill for our wants and desires than it is to kill for insulting Allah?

We should be able to insult Allah, and we can. But there will be consequencs. So is it worth it? Or would it make more sense in this troubled world to respect Allah? Wouldn't we all benefit more from that? Hopefully this isn't just a headstrong game of "we have that right so no one is going to stop us." Hopefully it isn't just a power struggle between them and us. It needs to go deeper than that. There has to be respect. Someone has to be the first to give that respect. Someone has to make the first move.

Nothing we've been doing so far has done anything to help solve the problem. I don't remember who said it, but it's true that if you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting. We need to change what we are doing.

I think you hit something here however i dont think you took it far enough. it should be. "Sure i shouldnt taunt someone who carries a loaded gun, but if that mother fucker aims it at me, he sure as shit better kill me because im gonna send him to meet allah if he misses." The problem i have with catering to there feelings is, When the fuck have they ever done it for us? The truth of the matter is they dont care. One westerner dead is as good as another. I believe we are at war with Islamic fundmentalism, albiet not a conventional battle the vicitims are just the same, dead. Have we fucked with them over oil for years, you betcha. Is it morally right? Probably not. But then i dont really wanna live under muslic rule. So as far as im concerned, glass any mother fucker who does violence on western culture.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear moderateamericain,

So as far as im concerned, glass any mother fucker who does violence on western culture.

'Glass' them??? You actually can't commit violence against a culture, (unless it's bacterial) as it is not a physical entity. Similar to a 'war on terror(ism)'.

[moderateamericain]

Dear moderateamericain,

So as far as im concerned, glass any mother fucker who does violence on western culture.

'Glass' them??? You actually can't commit violence against a culture, (unless it's bacterial) as it is not a physical entity. Similar to a 'war on terror(ism)'.

as in Muhammed blows up a church in Germany, hunt his ass down, arrest him, and execute him for terrorism. These people who preform these acts dont deserve to live.

[Leafless]

theloniusfleabag

You wrote-" Where should the line be drawn between free speech and 'hate literature. there should be a line, but it should not be up to one specific group to define it.

http://www.priestrapeboys.com/

http;//www.godhatesfags.com/

Should these site be 'legal'? Censorship is a slippery slope."

Hate literature is a name given for offensive material perpetuated towards a group religious or otherwise.

With this being said the only group that has been successful in classifying free speech as 'hate literature' and having something meaningful done about it in the free world are the Jews.

Who else outside of Mr. Zundel as ever been thrown out of a country for his views pertaining to free speech.

Hate literature has a double standard when applied to most other groups.

The point is with the Muslims, they are lashing out from within their group in a very violent manner. They are attacking the world as a civilization containing many different groups and cultures with mostly all subject to verbal attack known as 'free speech.'

The countries that habour these individuals have a responsibility to the world to control the actions of a large number of uncivilized fanatics and they have failed.

This is war and in this point of time no one is exactly quite sure what to do about it.

[Argus]

I agree. We think because we have freedom of speech, they should respect that. They should apply our laws to their world. That's not going to happen at this time any more than we're going to apply their laws to ours.

And yet, that is what they are demanding - that their laws be applied to our world.

And saying they need to join the civilized world does nothing to solve the problem. They aren't on the same time frame that we are. Every nation in this world is on its own time frame and can't be forced to do something they aren't ready for. They need time, and we need to give it to them.

Time to do what? Claw their way into the seventeenth century? Islam is not going to change any time soon. The Islam that exists now is the one we are going to have to deal with for many, many years. We need to make it clear to them that their silly laws and customs cannot be applied to other nations.

One thing's for sure. Insulting Allah isn't going to rush them into "the civilized world." They already feel as if we don't respect them and/or their world

We don't. Why would we? Do you respect that they burry women to their chests in the ground and throw stones at them because they are suspected of adultery? Or that they execute teenage girls who have sex?

We know that insulting Allah results in extremists wanting to avenge the insults with death. If someone were pointing a loaded gun at us, would we insult and goad them just because we have the "right" to do so? Would we exercise our freedom of speech then? Seems to me we should be wise about how we exercise our freedoms. With rights comes responsibility.

You act as if the Danes had any such thing in mind when they published those cartoons. I'm sure they weren't thinking about a bunch of illiterate goat herders in Iran, or the drooling, frenzied mobs of Syria when they decided whether the cartoons ought to be published. This was an internal Danish matter until so-called "Danish" Muslims went on a propaganda tour of Muslim crap holes to scream about how the evil Danes were abusing the prophet.

Of course it's wrong to take lives because of an insult. That goes without saying. But how wise is it to provoke them, knowing that's what the reaction will be?

Of course it's wrong to rape a woman who wears revealing and provocative clothing, but hey, how smart is she to goad men dressing like that? Surely she should do her best not to provoke men? Filthy slut! Someone should do something about her for provoking poor, innocent men!

[hades_ibex]

If someone were pointing a loaded gun at us, would we insult and goad them just because we have the "right" to do so?

Except it is the other way around. We busted into their living room, held a gun to their head, flushed the Koran down the toilet and mocked their religion. They spit in our face, so we call them savages.

I know the counter argument could be, "well they started it. Look at 911." This is total ignorance of history. But suppose 911 came out of nowhere. And suppose Iraqis (or Palaestinains, Syrians, Iranians) were behind 911. Did the US Air Force bomb Pendleton NY because Mcveigh was from there? Did the Brits bomb Belfast because the IRA was based there? Can Cuba bomb the US because Luis Posada Carriles is hiding out there?

There are proven techniques to deal with terrorism. It essentially involves police work - even international police work.

I still here people saying "This is war!". It didn't have to be.

[geoffrey]

We think because we have freedom of speech, they should respect that. They should apply our laws to their world. That's not going to happen at this time any more than we're going to apply their laws to ours.

The cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper in Denmark. The protests against free speech occurred in London.

Do you think a fundamentalist Islamic definition of free speech should apply in Canada? Should it be illegal for Canadians to ridicule certain religious figures? Should it be illegal for Canadians to question certain religious practices?

NO!!

What the Muslim rioters are saying is: "If you don't restrict freedom of speech, we will burn down your buildings and kill your people" Why should we succomb to this blackmail, and where will it end? This is an opportunity for the western gov'ts to stand up to these radicals and take a firm stand - including Canada.

Completely agreed Scriblett.

Their behaviour is only best described as uncivilized or savage. Personally when people act like that, I begin to doubt if they are human. Declare martial law and start shooting. See how they like it when people attack their civil liberties too!

Personally, if Iranian media posted an anti-Catholic comic in the paper, I doubt if I'd get all my cousins together and go torching embassies. If they want to be respected as equals in Western culture, they better start acting like civilized people in hurry.

[Insom Elvis]

If someone were pointing a loaded gun at us, would we insult and goad them just because we have the "right" to do so?

Except it is the other way around. We busted into their living room, held a gun to their head, flushed the Koran down the toilet and mocked their religion. They spit in our face, so we call them savages.

I know the counter argument could be, "well they started it. Look at 911." This is total ignorance of history. But suppose 911 came out of nowhere. And suppose Iraqis (or Palaestinains, Syrians, Iranians) were behind 911. Did the US Air Force bomb Pendleton NY because Mcveigh was from there? Did the Brits bomb Belfast because the IRA was based there? Can Cuba bomb the US because Luis Posada Carriles is hiding out there?

There are proven techniques to deal with terrorism. It essentially involves police work - even international police work.

I still here people saying "This is war!". It didn't have to be.

Do you think we just randomly bombed Afghanistan because Osama Bin Laden is from there? Of course not, we tracked down the most legitimate suspect, researched his involvement in terrorist activities ( yes, I know we armed him to destroy the Soviet Union, sucks to be us ), then initiated a search and destroy plan. By eliminating his most violent supporters and soldiers we are doing the world a favor. It's not like we found out he went to school at Terrorism for kids Junior High School and napalmed the place so do us all a favor and put it in perspective. I dont care who did what, if there is a single person on the face of this planet willing to kill massive numbers of people to teach the U.S. not to be the U.S., what does anyone have to lose by taking them all out? They're so gung-ho for suicide, how about we assist that in their land rather than let them carry it out in our land, while taking thousands of people with them.

[Argus]

If someone were pointing a loaded gun at us, would we insult and goad them just because we have the "right" to do so?

Except it is the other way around. We busted into their living room, held a gun to their head, flushed the Koran down the toilet and mocked their religion. They spit in our face, so we call them savages.

Into their home? I'd call Afghanistan and Iraq more like biker gang headquarters, not "home".

If I were living in Iraq or Afghanistan I'd have been delighted to have almost anyone invade and take over.

And yes, they are savages. Only savages bury people in the ground and stone them to death because of infidelity. Only savages hang teenage girls because they were raped. Only savages gas their own people. Only savages run wild in the streets because an obscure newspaper half a world away published a few cartoons five months earlier.

[Argus]

Their behaviour is only best described as uncivilized or savage. Personally when people act like that, I begin to doubt if they are human. Declare martial law and start shooting. See how they like it when people attack their civil liberties too!

Personally, if Iranian media posted an anti-Catholic comic in the paper, I doubt if I'd get all my cousins together and go torching embassies. If they want to be respected as equals in Western culture, they better start acting like civilized people in hurry.

Almost unbelievably, Iran's response to the cartoons, aside from organizing attacks on the Danish embassy, is to organize a cartoon contest - on the Holocaust.

Why do we even have an embassy in Iran? I think we should break off relations with the Iranians. We have no need to dirty ourselves by dealing with people who execute young girls for having sex, and who have a history of attacking the embassies of other nations.

[newbie]

I dont care who did what, if there is a single person on the face of this planet willing to kill massive numbers of people to teach the U.S. not to be the U.S., what does anyone have to lose by taking them all out?

Bad karma dude.

[scribblet]

We think because we have freedom of speech, they should respect that. They should apply our laws to their world. That's not going to happen at this time any more than we're going to apply their laws to ours.

The cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper in Denmark. The protests against free speech occurred in London.

Do you think a fundamentalist Islamic definition of free speech should apply in Canada? Should it be illegal for Canadians to ridicule certain religious figures? Should it be illegal for Canadians to question certain religious practices?

NO!!

What the Muslim rioters are saying is: "If you don't restrict freedom of speech, we will burn down your buildings and kill your people" Why should we succomb to this blackmail, and where will it end? This is an opportunity for the western gov'ts to stand up to these radicals and take a firm stand - including Canada.

Completely agreed Scriblett.

Their behaviour is only best described as uncivilized or savage. Personally when people act like that, I begin to doubt if they are human. Declare martial law and start shooting. See how they like it when people attack their civil liberties too!

Personally, if Iranian media posted an anti-Catholic comic in the paper, I doubt if I'd get all my cousins together and go torching embassies. If they want to be respected as equals in Western culture, they better start acting like civilized people in hurry.

Right, this is ignorant mob mentality and Eurabia is in big trouble if they don't take a firm stand now - and I have to say, stop all Muslim immigration.

In my mind this is more evidence that we are heading for a clash of 'civilizations' and if this isn't a danger to our planet and our lives, then people who don't see that have their heads in the sand.

And for those who think 'they didn't start it' check out history. It was Muslim expansionism and the Turkish capture of Jerusalem that triggered the Crusades. They were abominable, and both sides were savage, but the Crusades to the East were in fact, defensive wars - in direct response to Muslim aggression and to defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

I personally have no doubt that the goal of the Islamists is still a world wide Caliphate.

[geoffrey]

Well now the Muslim roaming gangs are onto France and Spain, because, well their white, so they must be infidels. Personally, I feel if your an immigrant, and don't like where you've moved, you can pick your ass up and go back to where you came from. These idiots need to start realising they don't own the whole freakin world and not everyone is subject to their backwards, hate filled religious law.

This is so beyond disgusting. In Afghanistan, they attacked the Norweigans? Why? Because they look like Danes?

I'm not quite at the point where I'd be worried about the Islamic population in Canada, because I haven't heard any demonstrations yet. But the first roaming gang of hooligans that appear here and I guarntee Canadians will change their minds on our current terrorist importation immigration policy (Khadrs and the such).

Unless you want to live under Shiria law or whatever else they want to impose over us, I'd start urging more immigration controls in a hurry. Ontario has already considered adopting Shiria law, I'm not fear mongering one bit.

Look at England for example.

[Black Dog]

Right, this is ignorant mob mentality and Eurabia is in big trouble if they don't take a firm stand now - and I have to say, stop all Muslim immigration.

I looked on my map and couldn't fiind this Eurabia you speak of.

In my mind this is more evidence that we are heading for a clash of 'civilizations' and if this isn't a danger to our planet and our lives, then people who don't see that have their heads in the sand.

Yeah, except the mightiest muslim country could be squashed (militarily speaking) by any of the weakest western nations. They know that, which is part of what they are so angry about. This rage born of impotence and powerlessness, kept festering under brutal regimes that further keep the people hopeless and ignorant and succeptiable to superstisious rot.

I personally have no doubt that the goal of the Islamists is still a world wide Caliphate.

Well, yeah. But they aren't going to get it, no matter how many embassies they torch.

[scribblet]

Right, this is ignorant mob mentality and Eurabia is in big trouble if they don't take a firm stand now - and I have to say, stop all Muslim immigration.

I looked on my map and couldn't fiind this Eurabia you speak of.

In my mind this is more evidence that we are heading for a clash of 'civilizations' and if this isn't a danger to our planet and our lives, then people who don't see that have their heads in the sand.

Yeah, except the mightiest muslim country could be squashed (militarily speaking) by any of the weakest western nations. They know that, which is part of what they are so angry about. This rage born of impotence and powerlessness, kept festering under brutal regimes that further keep the people hopeless and ignorant and succeptiable to superstisious rot.

Well, yeah. But they aren't going to get it, no matter how many embassies they torch.

Don't be too sure of that.

http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=...07-072431-9805r

Long Live Russian Democracy eh !

[Black Dog]

Almost unbelievably, Iran's response to the cartoons, aside from organizing attacks on the Danish embassy, is to organize a cartoon contest - on the Holocaust.

Why do we even have an embassy in Iran? I think we should break off relations with the Iranians. We have no need to dirty ourselves by dealing with people who execute young girls for having sex, and who have a history of attacking the embassies of other nations.

More to the point, are there Iranian embassies here? If so, can we expect the Jewish community to torch them? No?

[hades_ibex]

There are a lot of people looking through some kind of reality-distortion prism. The Crusades were their fault? Can you explain how the British and French occupations in the 1800s were their fault too? I'm sure they were. We drop bombs from airplanes onto cities, and they are the savages?

Someone asked Gandhi what he thinks of British civilization, and his response was, "I think it would be a good idea." Look in the mirror.

[tml12]

"I looked on my map and couldn't fiind this Eurabia you speak of."

Neither could I...

[Insom Elvis]

I'm agreed to cutting off relations with Iran. For that matter perhaps we'd be doing ourselves a big favor by cutting off relations with quite a few of the middle eastern nations that act so irrationally on such a regular basis. My only problem is when genocide or any sort of civilian slaughter occurs, yes we can turn and look the other way but if we have the power to stop it, aren't we morally responsible to make an effort? I don't mean Iran, as I haven't heard of this going on there, but Iraq, africa, etc. If we're just talking about Iran, let's cut off all communication with them and be done with it. if they make bombs, I doubt they'll use them on us, unless of course once they have the weapon their confidence and hatred toward the west becomes inflamed, then we have a much bigger issue to deal with.

[scribblet]

There are a lot of people looking through some kind of reality-distortion prism. The Crusades were their fault? Can you explain how the British and French occupations in the 1800s were their fault too? I'm sure they were. We drop bombs from airplanes onto cities, and they are the savages?

Someone asked Gandhi what he thinks of British civilization, and his response was, "I think it would be a good idea." Look in the mirror.

The Crusades were a result of Muslim expansionism and of course the fall of Jerusalem, a defence against Jihad.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0506...les/madden.html

The First Crusade was called in 1095 by Pope Urban II in response to an urgent plea for assistance from the Byzantine Empire, the last Christian state in the East. Things had been going badly for Christians for several centuries, ever since the explosion of Muslim warriors out of Arabia in the seventh century. Egypt, Palestine, Syria, North Africa—the core of the Christian world—had been conquered by Muslim jihad warriors and subjected to Islamic rule and law. When Turkish jihad warriors invaded and conquered Asia Minor, they reduced Christendom to a tiny corner of the world

None of which has anything to do with today's violence, which is continuing. Maybe you need a paradigm shift, civilized people today normally do not protest with such violence and rage. If theyare angry with their own impotence and poverty then they need to realize that it is their own fanatisicm, religion and governments which keep them shackled to the dark ages.

Muhammad 'Abd al-Salam Faraj, a very influential Egyptian leader, wrote that "Islam can only succeed by the use of weapons, as was true in the past" . Faraj and his idealogical followers propose violence, terrorism, and political assassinations, as a means to accomplish their objectives.

[hades_ibex]

Egypt, Palestine, Syria, North Africa—the core of the Christian world—had been conquered by Muslim jihad warriors and subjected to Islamic rule and law.

"Jihad warriors"? Weren't the Crusaders jihad warriors?

And "subjected"? Where would you have chosed to live? Moorish Spain or Christian Europe?

http://www.africawithin.com/black_history/..._chapter18.html

Cordoba was the most wonderful city of the tenth century. It was served by 4,000 public markets and 5,000 mills. Public baths numbered in the hundreds. This amenity was present at a time when cleanliness in Christian Europe was regarded as a sin.

Education was universal in Moorish Spain, available to the most humble, while 99% of Christian Europe was illiterate

In the tenth and eleventh centuries, public libraries did not exist in Christian Europe, while Moorish Spain had more than seventy, of which the one in Cordoba contained over six hundred thousand manuscripts.

Scientific progress in astronomy, chemistry, geography, mathematics, physics, and philosophy flourished in Moorish Spain. Scholars, artist and scientists formed learning societies, while scientific congresses were organized to promote research and to facilitate the spread of knowledge. A brisk intellectual life flourished in all Islamic dominated societies.

[scribblet]

Egypt, Palestine, Syria, North Africa—the core of the Christian world—had been conquered by Muslim jihad warriors and subjected to Islamic rule and law.

"Jihad warriors"? Weren't the Crusaders jihad warriors?

And "subjected"? Where would you have chosed to live? Moorish Spain or Christian Europe?

http://www.africawithin.com/black_history/..._chapter18.html

Cordoba was the most wonderful city of the tenth century. It was served by 4,000 public markets and 5,000 mills. Public baths numbered in the hundreds. This amenity was present at a time when cleanliness in Christian Europe was regarded as a sin.

Education was universal in Moorish Spain, available to the most humble, while 99% of Christian Europe was illiterate

In the tenth and eleventh centuries, public libraries did not exist in Christian Europe, while Moorish Spain had more than seventy, of which the one in Cordoba contained over six hundred thousand manuscripts.

Scientific progress in astronomy, chemistry, geography, mathematics, physics, and philosophy flourished in Moorish Spain. Scholars, artist and scientists formed learning societies, while scientific congresses were organized to promote research and to facilitate the spread of knowledge. A brisk intellectual life flourished in all Islamic dominated societies.

You seemed to have missed the point - however, that Muslim empire unfortunately no longer exists. Maybe they can attain these things again, but not if they keep up the psychotic violence, and certainly not under the leadership they have today.