The Cartoon Dispute

Leafless · February 4, 2006

You be the judge!

Do you find these cartoons offensive enough to issue death threats which BTW are being delivered via FREE SPEECH.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Scroll half way down the page.

Argus · February 4, 2006

You be the judge!
Do you find these cartoons offensive enough to issue death threats which BTW are being delivered via FREE SPEECH.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Scroll half way down the page.

I think a couple of them, in particular, are very valid criticisms of Islam today. The bomb in the turban and the "stop, we're out of virgins" in particular, are properly critical of the mentality of too many Muslims today.

YankAbroad · February 4, 2006

Even if they actually were "offensive," who cares?

I see offensive stuff published about Americans, gays, libertarians, Quakers, etc. published every day. Do I have a right to attack the publishers and the embassies of their countries? Heck no.

Satire and criticism is part of living in a free society.

The biggest irony is that virtually none of the rioters in the various countries have even seen the cartoons in question. The one editor in Jordan who dared to print them was arrested by the government and his papers confiscated!

Leafless · February 4, 2006

YankAbroad

You wrote- " I see offensive stuff published about Americans, gays, libertarians, Quakers etc. published every day."

" Satire and criticism is part of living in a free society."

You are correct including the Pope and our presidents and prime ministers and including ourselves from the cradle to the grave are subject to satire, criticism and worse.

The problem with the Islamic religion is that it is used by Muslim radicals and possibly any moderate follower to impose their believes into areas of religious, political and legal on others often via fear tactics utilizing terrorist acts and mob violence throughout the world.

It is apparent this Islamic religion is a religon that advocates violence a religion that should not be allowed to exist in a democratic society.

crazymf · February 4, 2006

To me, the Muslim countries all seem to be third world societies.

The outrage at some simple cartoons merely illustrates the intolerance of them to accept others.

All I can think is how long this is going to continue before there is a true religious backlash on them, another crusade? They seem to want to have their way or the highway and that can't continue forever. One day, people will have had enough of their crap.

The more stuff I hear like this, the more I wonder if Muslims are educated people or merely religious zealots willing to sacrifice all for beliefs no one can substantiate.

I also say that for all religious issues of every persuasion.

geoffrey · February 4, 2006

My question is why are these Muslims so damned violent. You have these people lighting embassies on fire and thousands rioting in the street shooting guns and burning flags, over a freakin cartoon.

When someone makes an editorial cartoon making fun of a Catholic priest, and I'm very Catholic, I don't go burn down that embassy or collect my relatives and go marching shooting guns in the air.

What the hell is wrong with these middle-eastern countries? Why are they so violent?

Argus · February 5, 2006

My question is why are these Muslims so damned violent. You have these people lighting embassies on fire and thousands rioting in the street shooting guns and burning flags, over a freakin cartoon.
When someone makes an editorial cartoon making fun of a Catholic priest, and I'm very Catholic, I don't go burn down that embassy or collect my relatives and go marching shooting guns in the air.

What the hell is wrong with these middle-eastern countries? Why are they so violent?

Because Islam is all they are, all they want, all they hope for. To a Westerner, his religion is merely the soft, faded background under which his life is lived. To these people, in their miserable, impoverished lives, Islam is the world. They have no history or understanding of the concept of dissent, of freedom of expression, of accepting someone else to say or believe things they find insulting. They literally don't understand the concept. None understand a free society or the way people can tolerate the different opinions, religious, social or political, around them, with relative dispassion. And there is vast jealousy and resentment towards the West for being everything they think they should be; rich, powerful, civilized, scientifically advanced. The strongest Arab country would be crushed militarily by the weakest European country, and they all know it. The times when they could lead powerful armies into Europe are long, long past.

August1991 · February 5, 2006

How did it begin? Oddly, with a decision by a Danish newspaper to commission, and then print, cartoons portraying the Prophet Muhammad in whatever light cartoonists chose to put him.

NYT

Reading through various articles, I'm surprised the number which say that freedom of speech is important but these cartoons were inflammatory, and provoked, "baited" Muslims.

Maybe, but if it hadn't been these Danish cartoons, it would have been some other cartoons in some other newspaper. Or some statement from some politician or musician, or some film made somewhere.

A confrontation was inevitable. And more confrontations will occur in the future. We can't avoid them.

There's another way of looking at this: Salman Rushdie, Pim Fortuyn, Theo Van Gogh, Bali bombing, the WTC, London and Madrid bombings are all examples of this confrontation. These are only some of the conflicts between liberal westerners and Islamic fundamentalists.

The idea that these cartoons provoked or started the problem is absurd. The cartoons are not an isolated incident.

Riverwind · February 5, 2006

Reading through various articles, I'm surprised the number which say that freedom of speech is important but these cartoons were inflammatory, and provoked, "baited" Muslims.

Like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

The idea that these cartoons provoked or started the problem is absurd. The cartoons are not an isolated incident.

The cartoons tapped into a deep seated sense of resentment that many Muslims have towards to West. You are probably correct to say that is was that something like this would have happened eventually and the cartoonists are just unlucky that they happened to be the ones that got caught holding the match.

Never the less, we in the West can't continue to wring our hands and complain about those 'ignorant' savages' living in Muslim countries. We must deal with the beast living next door and reasonably as possible under the circumstances. Unfortunately, dealing with this beast requires more finesse than trying to lock it up in a cage and poke it with a stick (i.e. delivering condencending lectures about freedom of speech).

newbie · February 5, 2006

We must deal with the beast living next door and reasonably as possible under the circumstances.

Yeah, like getting the hell out of their countries.

newbie · February 5, 2006

Remember what Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said recently:

"Israel must be wiped off the map…" Kinda makes the cartoons look rather tame.

YankAbroad · February 5, 2006

Someone should tell the Muslims to take their cultural imperalism and fuck off.

I'm tired of their fuindamentalist loons murdering politicians, filmmakers, and publishers who dare to disagree with them, and I'm especially tired of misnamed "liberals" defending the murders as "sadly necessary" and supporting the idea that if someone disagrees with a Muslim fundie and makes it known, it's a "provocation which sadly must result in his death."

scribblet · February 5, 2006

This is the religion of peace - really? Eurabia is in trouble, if they don't stand up to this violence and excesses we won't have any freedoms.

I would love to comment more but am still away for a few days and no time.

Argus · February 5, 2006

Reading through various articles, I'm surprised the number which say that freedom of speech is important but these cartoons were inflammatory, and provoked, "baited" Muslims.
Like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

Sparkhawk, are you saying that Muslims are violent, mindless beasts which will automatically attack due to instinct - without thought?

Never the less, we in the West can't continue to wring our hands and complain about those 'ignorant' savages' living in Muslim countries.

Why not? Are you supposed to think of them as mindless beasts instead?

We must deal with the beast living next door and reasonably as possible under the circumstances. Unfortunately, dealing with this beast requires more finesse than trying to lock it up in a cage and poke it with a stick (i.e. delivering condencending lectures about freedom of speech).

Not sure what you're talking about there. I don't have any problems with my neighbours. If you do, maybe you should move. Lots of room in the middle east, I hear. I'm sure you'll be happy there, where no one is permitted to make cartoons which might incite the faithful. Oh, they can make cartoons which are derogatory and inciteful towards Jews and other infidels, but hey, that's all right, right?

Argus · February 5, 2006

Remember what Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said recently:
"Israel must be wiped off the map…" Kinda makes the cartoons look rather tame.

What gets me about all this is that it was a Danish newspaper publishing cartoons in Denmark. None of which has anything to do with Lebanese or Syrians or Iranians. What the idiots on the left who are attacking the Danes seem to feel is that what we print in our newspapers - and presumably, in our books, as well as what we see on our televisioins and hear on our radios should be governed not by our standards but by the standards of ignorant goat herders from third world shitholes. Because, after all, they're violent goat herders so we dare not provoke them. Is there anything more of a cop-out? Freedom of speech is the base of all freedoms in the West, and we're supposed to restrict it according to the whims of religious wackos from the middle east? Its too bad old Izzie died, or I think the Asper papers would have run the cartoons from coast to cast. The old man hated Muslims. I wish at least one Canadian paper would have the balls to run them. But no, we got the Toronto Star, criticising the Danes, and the Globe and Mail, piously talking about journalistic ethics and restraint. This is the bravery of your liberal editor, more than willing to hurl any and all accusations at conservatives but terrified at the thought of causing offense to an "ethnic" somewhere.

The Danes are among the most peaceful and civlized people on Earth and yet we have idiots siding with Muslims, who are among the most warlike and barbarous people on Earth.

Leafless · February 5, 2006

August1991

You wrote- " The idea that these cartoons provoked or started the problem is absurd. The cartoons are not an isolated incident."

This basically is at the center of almost anyone's thought.

This is a clash of civilizations one modern and one obsolete compared to modern democracies.

Muslim radicals in effect have declared war on the world through multiple terrorist acts and allegations concerning primitive hard core beliefs.

This will for certain make Muslim integration an impossibility throughout the world because of this.

August1991 · February 5, 2006

You can contrast this by the following two columns published today:

This context shows there is a great deal of mutual ignorance. However, it does not prove any inherent incompatibility between Muslims and non-Muslims, as extremists on both sides would have us believe.

Haroon Siddiqui -Toronto Star

But if you frame the issue in terms of multicultural "sensitivity," the wimp state will bend over backward to give you everything you want -- including, eventually, the keys to those skyscrapers. Thus, Jack Straw, the British foreign secretary, hailed the "sensitivity" of Fleet Street in not reprinting the offending cartoons.

Mark Steyn

The point is that it is unavoidable that we are going to offend the Islamic fundamentalists. Calls for us to be sensitive to their feelings are well meaning but pointless.

Individuals living in liberal western societies always ask questions, push the envelope and test any given theory. We apply the scientific method because we are raised to be intelligent skeptics. One of us is bound to come up with some question or query that is considered blasphemy to anyone not comfortable with asking questions.

The scientific method and Islamic fundamentalism (obscurantisme) are incompatible.

Christianity, of course, "reformed" itself. That is, it gave up and went home. The Christianity of today, even its so-called fundamentalist/Stockwell Day/Evangelical form, bears little resemblance to medieval Christianity.

I have no idea how or if Islam will reform itself. There are many secular, non-practicing Muslims. Unfortunately, we don't hear too much from them - and certainly not during times like these, when it's "us" and "them".

----

Copernicus, Galileo and the Enlightenment made western liberal society but these writings and ideas, at the time, were only understood by an educated elite. I am inclined to believe that the Enlightenment became popular and real in the past century, after World War II, and certainly during the 1960s. Ordinary people in the west today live as Voltaire or Rousseau imagined.

GostHacked · February 5, 2006

It's just a cartoon!!, JUST A CARTOON!

Saying we do not understand them is an understatement. Seems like they suffer manic-depressiveness like me. One insult flies, and embassies in several countries in the middle east have been torched. NICE ONE! That will win you respect and overall, those few radicals are fucking things up for the rest of them. If Islam cannot control their followers, then they have failed. Some of the cartoons I just don't get. Being a subsciber of NO religion at all.

Syria, Lebanon have torched Nordic related embassies. Iraqi's transportaion minister(??HAHA) said they are going to cut all ties with those countries.

From CNN

CNN has chosen to not show the cartoons out of respect for Islam.

But again, it is JUST a cartoon.

Argus · February 6, 2006

Why don't more papers publish the cartoons? Because they're afraid to. Some of them claim a nobility, saying, as CNN and AP do, that "out of respect" for Muslims, they won't publish the cartoons. That's just so much bullshit. They're simply afraid to. They just don't have the honesty to admit it.

At least the Sunday Herald admitted why they aren't publishing the cartoons.

This paper’s belief in freedom of speech is paramount. The decision not to reprint the cartoons, not to declare ourselves another Spartacus in support of our European colleagues, was taken, at least partly, out of consideration for the safety of the staff, and the safety of Scottish people here and abroad, and I fully support it. But the extremists, who created the fear that made that decision a foregone conclusion, must understand that if they think the UK press have done this out of respect, they are so very wrong. They have undoubtedly won this battle hands down. Well done. We are afraid. But do they think people neutered and silenced by fear are going to work at embracing their culture, their religion or their values? Clearly, they don’t care.

Sunday Herald

Leafless · February 6, 2006

Muslims attacking and torching embassies is more than a protest over what they consider an insult.

What is happening is more serious in my estimation and that is a mini revolution.

The class struggle which is expected to lead to politcal change.

The replacement of a ruling class by another.

geoffrey · February 6, 2006

Muslims attacking and torching embassies is more than a protest over what they consider an insult.
What is happening is more serious in my estimation and that is a mini revolution.

The class struggle which is expected to lead to politcal change.

The replacement of a ruling class by another.

Nah, they'll all calm down in a few days, just give them some time. Freedom of speech is more important than appeasing a bunch of hooligans.

Sorry to any Muslims out there that don't support this violence, but these people 'protesting' are just disgusting. Hooligans is definitely the best word to describe it. They just find any little reason to inflict violence on others.

By the way, the Marxian dialectic is historically wrong. <_<

hades_ibex · February 6, 2006

I think you are all totally missing the point. You parrot this ideological nonsense that we all live in this utopian Western society where there is freedom of press and expression and all that. And by golly why can't the muslims just be the same? We've even got 200,000 troops in the area trying to force them to be like us. Dammit, don't they get it? If they just assimilated, they would be so much better.

Has it ever occured to you that we have no right to take this view? If we just left them alone, they would sort this stuff out themselves - or maybe they wouldn't and there would be a period of civil wars or revolutions or whatever. Of course the problem is that most of the oil is there. We cannot leave them alone. (Would the US have invaded Iraq even if its biggest commodity were radishes and not oil? Only a few delusional people would answer yes to this).

I reckon the Arab is entitled to be p*ssed off with the West.

February 6, 2006

I think you are all totally missing the point. You parrot this ideological nonsense that we all live in this utopian Western society where there is freedom of press and expression and all that. And by golly why can't the muslims just be the same? We've even got 200,000 troops in the area trying to force them to be like us. Dammit, don't they get it? If they just assimilated, they would be so much better.

I agree. We think because we have freedom of speech, they should respect that. They should apply our laws to their world. That's not going to happen at this time any more than we're going to apply their laws to ours. And saying they need to join the civilized world does nothing to solve the problem. They aren't on the same time frame that we are. Every nation in this world is on its own time frame and can't be forced to do something they aren't ready for. They need time, and we need to give it to them.

Ironically, when it comes to paying the third world a pittance for their labor, even engaging in child labor, our laws don't matter to our nations. Corporations are more than happy to take advantage of the fact that they are still developing nations and not apply our labor laws over there, and there are plenty of people who support them. So why should they respect our laws when we don't?

One thing's for sure. Insulting Allah isn't going to rush them into "the civilized world." They already feel as if we don't respect them and/or their world. We know that insulting Allah results in extremists wanting to avenge the insults with death. If someone were pointing a loaded gun at us, would we insult and goad them just because we have the "right" to do so? Would we exercise our freedom of speech then? Seems to me we should be wise about how we exercise our freedoms. With rights comes responsibility.

Of course it's wrong to take lives because of an insult. That goes without saying. But how wise is it to provoke them, knowing that's what the reaction will be? So why go out of our way to provoke and insult them? What did printing those cartoons accomplish? Were they an integral part of solving the problem the world is facing? Seems to me it's just the opposite.

Has it ever occured to you that we have no right to take this view? If we just left them alone, they would sort this stuff out themselves - or maybe they wouldn't and there would be a period of civil wars or revolutions or whatever. Of course the problem is that most of the oil is there. We cannot leave them alone. (Would the US have invaded Iraq even if its biggest commodity were radishes and not oil? Only a few delusional people would answer yes to this).

Again, I agree. We can't solve their problems. They have to do that themselves. But they have the oil. And that's the bottom line. We think we have a right to their oil. We also think we have a right to tell others how to think. We think democracies are so great, until a democratic nation elects a leader we don't approve of. It's all about us. Everyone should think and act like us, and if they don't, we (being oh-so-civilized) will start a war to force them to think and act like us. Then, when they kill us in acts of violence, we are shocked and appalled at their behavior.

I reckon the Arab is entitled to be p*ssed off with the West.

It's totally understandable why they are.

Argus · February 6, 2006

I think you are all totally missing the point. You parrot this ideological nonsense that we all live in this utopian Western society where there is freedom of press and expression and all that. And by golly why can't the muslims just be the same? We've even got 200,000 troops in the area trying to force them to be like us. Dammit, don't they get it? If they just assimilated, they would be so much better.

They would be.

Has it ever occured to you that we have no right to take this view? If we just left them alone, they would sort this stuff out themselves - or maybe they wouldn't and there would be a period of civil wars or revolutions or whatever. Of course the problem is that most of the oil is there. We cannot leave them alone.

No, we can't. It is unfortunate they have so much oil. Oil has been a great benefit to other nations, but the Arabs were and remain a weak people. Weak people with wealth will always be taken advantage of by someone. If the West entirely left the middle east, closed down embassies, evacuated all their people, refused to even have anything to do with Muslim nations, what would happen? The Russians or the Chinese, or someone, would move in to take over.

But don't act as though it's all our fault. These are independant nations, and some of them are quite wealthy. What have they done with their wealth? Even Saudi Arabia, arguably the most wealthy and succesful, is still a nation built on sand. Its universities turn out legions of experts in the Koran, but precious few engineers, scientists or mathematicians. After all these years and all these decades, none of the middle east oil nations (so far as I know) are able to operate their oil drilling or refining industries without masses of foreign, largely western employees. They can't even repair the pumps, much less build them, much less drill for oil. Why? And why is it our fault? Why is it our fault the people over there are so uneducated, so unsophisticated, so plagued by religion and religious quacks and wackos? The US physically occupied places like Japan and South Korea - and look at them now. Hong Kong was run by the British for a century, and as a result it's arguably the most advanced, sophisticated, and wealthy place in mainland Asia. So who says western interference is so terrible? The willingness of the Muslim street to resort to violence is not due to Western influence. You should look elsewhere for the cause.

August1991 · February 6, 2006

We think because we have freedom of speech, they should respect that. They should apply our laws to their world. That's not going to happen at this time any more than we're going to apply their laws to ours.

The cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper in Denmark. The protests against free speech occurred in London.

Do you think a fundamentalist Islamic definition of free speech should apply in Canada? Should it be illegal for Canadians to ridicule certain religious figures? Should it be illegal for Canadians to question certain religious practices?