"Hit the Road" Jack!

[lost&outofcontrol]

I don't understand this sudden need for people of the left to show how willing they are to stand up for conervative values like nationalism to show hopw tough they are. Nationalism is anotehr form of chauvanism, an ideology used to conince people to put their lives at risk in the service of a "cause" that only benefits those who stay behind and out of danger.

I wouldn't "defend my country" because I believe the very concept is bullcrap.

This is, perhaps, the most perfect Black Dog post ever. The Zen of Black Dog. It ties together and explains, in a fundamental way, every post I've ever read from you.

I fully agree with Black Dog.

[mcqueen625]

I hate jack laytons attitude. he thinks the governemnt should take all your money and do things with it. I dont think so jack. A result to me is a TAX CUT. NDP is scared of tax cuts because they bring money back into our pockets, not into social programs that only help 15% of the polulation. $9 billion dollars for affordabel housing... that doesnt help me, I own my home. Does that help anyone on this site?? I doubt it. it only helps poor people, which is only a very small percentage of the population. that 9 billion should have went back into our pockets threw a TAX CUT.

I say HIT THE ROAD JACK.

jack layton speaks for 15% of the poluation, if that...

He does not speak for anyone earning $45,000 a year or more... which is the vast majority of our population.

I agree that Jack Layton needs to go, but your remarks are way off base when talking about affordable housing units for a large percentage of people in this country. Maybe you do own your own home but those that own their own homes in this country are certainly not in the majority. Most working people in Canada rent, and with the current trend of employers to hire more part-time or Term employees that trend is not likely to change anytime soon. The reality is that a very large number of people in Canada are not able to afford housing, clothing, and food without having to resort to food banks or soup kitchen's but obviously you could care less about these people since you are do not worry about where your next meal is coming from. Just remember one thing, we can all be jolted out of our comfortable lifestyle by something as simple as the business one works for suddenly closes their doors, and the employees suddenly find themselves at the local food bank because you have no food to put on your table. Don't think it can't happen to you, because it has happened to people likely far more comfortable than you think you are.

I sit on the Board of my province's food bank association, and we are hearing stories all the time of people who once donated to the food banks are suddenly finding themselves as clients requiring assistance. This supposed healthy global economy has created many casualities right here in good old Canada. I owned my own home that is until a series of circumstances intervened that were beyond my control, and I lost my house. I had a heart attack and could no longer work, and although my insurance company paid me long-term disability for 2 years, they finally deemed me able to work even though Canada Pension had already deemed me totally disabled. The end result was that the insurance company cut me off they said because their definition of what constitutes a total disability differs from that of Canada Pension. My mortgage was not insured because when I bought the property I had Diabetes which deemed me uninsurable. Don't think for a minute that life cannot intervene and spoil your well laid plans for how the universe is to unfold. You may someday find yourself needing one of those affordable housing units yourself.

[BubberMiley]

Please, say it ain't so. Only the most ardent Castro fart-catcher would see forcing doctors into a payed slavery arrangement with the state as an improvement.

Would you say social workers have a paid slavery arrangement? With the proportion of private to public schools as it is, you could say teachers are in a paid slavery arrangement too. A public system can be efficient and flexible: I don't think that defies the laws of physics, nor does it involve catching farts.

Which the junkies routinely avoid, prefering, as I stated, to slam junk closer to "home" and away from authority.

Ah, but if there was good-quality, cheap heroin available at the safe injection site...

[BHS]

Would you say social workers have a paid slavery arrangement? With the proportion of private to public schools as it is, you could say teachers are in a paid slavery arrangement too. A public system can be efficient and flexible: I don't think that defies the laws of physics, nor does it involve catching farts.

Okay, fine. Your opinion appears to be that young students who go to medical school in Canada should be under no illusion that they have any more freedom to choose their work conditions than social workers (absolutely) or of teachers (in the majority)*. But how does forcing the entire profession directly onto the government payroll (as opposed to the current pay-per-service model) improve the situation? For the life of me, I can't see any potential for improvement at all.

*Acknowledging that social workers can choose which city to live in and which level or branch of government to work for, and likewise that teachers apply directly to the particular public school board that eventually employs them.

[Hicksey]

Would you say social workers have a paid slavery arrangement? With the proportion of private to public schools as it is, you could say teachers are in a paid slavery arrangement too. A public system can be efficient and flexible: I don't think that defies the laws of physics, nor does it involve catching farts.

Okay, fine. Your opinion appears to be that young students who go to medical school in Canada should be under no illusion that they have any more freedom to choose their work conditions than social workers (absolutely) or of teachers (in the majority)*. But how does forcing the entire profession directly onto the government payroll (as opposed to the current pay-per-service model) improve the situation? For the life of me, I can't see any potential for improvement at all.

*Acknowledging that social workers can choose which city to live in and which level or branch of government to work for, and likewise that teachers apply directly to the particular public school board that eventually employs them.

Good questions. There are a lot of doctors whose patient lists are more than they can handle, but take them out of compassion because they know these people would otherwise have no family doctor. What incentive do they have in a salary position to take on more patients? I would think that if they didn't get paid any more for more patients, most would stick to an amount they know they can take care of well. Do you think that salaried doctors would create a doctor shortage.

[SamStranger]

I hate jack laytons attitude. he thinks the governemnt should take all your money and do things with it. I dont think so jack. A result to me is a TAX CUT. NDP is scared of tax cuts because they bring money back into our pockets, not into social programs that only help 15% of the polulation. $9 billion dollars for affordabel housing... that doesnt help me, I own my home. Does that help anyone on this site?? I doubt it. it only helps poor people, which is only a very small percentage of the population. that 9 billion should have went back into our pockets threw a TAX CUT.

I say HIT THE ROAD JACK.

jack layton speaks for 15% of the poluation, if that...

He does not speak for anyone earning $45,000 a year or more... which is the vast majority of our population.

I agree that Jack Layton needs to go, but your remarks are way off base when talking about affordable housing units for a large percentage of people in this country. Maybe you do own your own home but those that own their own homes in this country are certainly not in the majority. Most working people in Canada rent, and with the current trend of employers to hire more part-time or Term employees that trend is not likely to change anytime soon. The reality is that a very large number of people in Canada are not able to afford housing, clothing, and food without having to resort to food banks or soup kitchen's but obviously you could care less about these people since you are do not worry about where your next meal is coming from. Just remember one thing, we can all be jolted out of our comfortable lifestyle by something as simple as the business one works for suddenly closes their doors, and the employees suddenly find themselves at the local food bank because you have no food to put on your table. Don't think it can't happen to you, because it has happened to people likely far more comfortable than you think you are.

I sit on the Board of my province's food bank association, and we are hearing stories all the time of people who once donated to the food banks are suddenly finding themselves as clients requiring assistance. This supposed healthy global economy has created many casualities right here in good old Canada. I owned my own home that is until a series of circumstances intervened that were beyond my control, and I lost my house. I had a heart attack and could no longer work, and although my insurance company paid me long-term disability for 2 years, they finally deemed me able to work even though Canada Pension had already deemed me totally disabled. The end result was that the insurance company cut me off they said because their definition of what constitutes a total disability differs from that of Canada Pension. My mortgage was not insured because when I bought the property I had Diabetes which deemed me uninsurable. Don't think for a minute that life cannot intervene and spoil your well laid plans for how the universe is to unfold. You may someday find yourself needing one of those affordable housing units yourself.

Alright, u made a few good points but your missing the big picture. The NDP ONLY (I repeat ONLY) helps the Poorest Canadians, and the minorities. He does not have any proposals that will benifit the Middle and High Class Canadians. Ill give you an example. Between me and my wife, our "take home" income after taxes is around $1600.00 a week. When you have 4 kids between the ages of 12-21 that doesnt go very far. Anyways... under Jack Laytons platform he would take my tax dollars and put into programs I DO NOT use. Such as Afordable Housing. Now... under Prime Minister Harpers plan, I will get tax relief up the wazoo. The GST cut will save me well over a few thousand a year... actually Im buying a new car soon so Ill save around a thousand their aswell. Not to mention Tax credits for Tradespeople like myself, Ill get $500 to buy some more tools I need. Their are many other things that they do that will help me.

In conclusion its quite simple. The NDP has NOTHING to offer me or my wife, or anyone between the income bracket of $45,000+ a year.

[BubberMiley]

Since all you're capable of considering is how social programs benefit you personally, have you ever considered how they might benefit you by maintaining a stable social environment that promotes investment in our economy? If you've ever been to a place with real poverty, you would realize that it's not a place you'd want to live.

[SamStranger]

Since all you're capable of considering is how social programs benefit you personally, have you ever considered how they might benefit you by maintaining a stable social environment that promotes investment in our economy? If you've ever been to a place with real poverty, you would realize that it's not a place you'd want to live.

Holy crap we got a saint on our hands!!! Common people... we dont all have to be "mini popes". You think an NDP government would help the economy? Jack Layton reminds me of Robin Hood "Steal from the rich and give to the needy". Does that help the economy? If their are no rich people, then their will be no trading, nationally or internationally... would that help us? Taxing the middle and high class to death to build houses for the poor... does that help us??

Think before you talk next time...

[Hollus]

Alright, u made a few good points but your missing the big picture. The NDP ONLY (I repeat ONLY) helps the Poorest Canadians, and the minorities. He does not have any proposals that will benifit the Middle and High Class Canadians. Ill give you an example. Between me and my wife, our "take home" income after taxes is around $1600.00 a week. When you have 4 kids between the ages of 12-21 that doesnt go very far. Anyways... under Jack Laytons platform he would take my tax dollars and put into programs I DO NOT use. Such as Afordable Housing. Now... under Prime Minister Harpers plan, I will get tax relief up the wazoo. The GST cut will save me well over a few thousand a year... actually Im buying a new car soon so Ill save around a thousand their aswell. Not to mention Tax credits for Tradespeople like myself, Ill get $500 to buy some more tools I need. Their are many other things that they do that will help me.

In conclusion its quite simple. The NDP has NOTHING to offer me or my wife, or anyone between the income bracket of $45,000+ a year.

Your telling us that your taking home $90,000 a year, have 4 beautiful kids and your about to buy a new car... why are we supposed to be feeling sorry for you again?

Why should the government be using MY tax dollars to help buy your tools and put your kids in sports programs while I'm getting hit with a Conservative tax increase. Can you explain?

[BubberMiley]

Holy crap we got a saint on our hands!!! Common people... we dont all have to be "mini popes". You think an NDP government would help the economy? Jack Layton reminds me of Robin Hood "Steal from the rich and give to the needy". Does that help the economy? If their are no rich people, then their will be no trading, nationally or internationally... would that help us? Taxing the middle and high class to death to build houses for the poor... does that help us??

Think before you talk next time...

Yes, it helps us tremendously. I don't consider myself taxed to death and I make more money than you. I don't think we need to be taxed higher to create better social programs either. But if you've ever visited South America, you would find that a great number of people live in real poverty. Pure dismal poverty, the likes of which we don't even see on Hastings Street or our Indian reserves. That breeds disease and crazy social problems. The result is the wealthy are all in gated communities with bars on their windows. This environment doesn't encourage investment because nobody wants to live there. Property values decline and it's a slippery slope to rampant poverty. My point is that social programs can provide an element of stability to the society that benefits everyone. That's what helps us.

You just haven't thought much about it before you talked I guess.

[SamStranger]

Do you atleast agree that society needs rich people to keep it running? If so... then the rich should also get tax relief. I believe the Middle Class should dtrive to be rich, and the rich should remain rich. The poor have to rethink their decisions.

[BubberMiley]

Absolutely. Otherwise they would have no reason to strive to create wealth. There is a happy medium in there somewhere--the sweet spot of taxation--where people are richly rewarded for their efforts, potholes get filled, kids get educated, people get health care when they need it, and poor people aren't starving in the streets. I think the problem is not in the social programs themselves--they benefit everyone--but in the bureaucracy. If Harper can tackle that problem without cutting services or raising taxes (and I do believe it can be done), then he'll be the greatest prime minister yet.

[SamStranger]

Im glad you see my point.

I am still totaly anti-NDP. If they had a Majority Government, they would probably...

1. Raise the GST from 7% to 9%

2. Take the GST off of Childrens Clothes and school supplies

3. Enforce a new tax that will be 5% for things that pollute ect.

4. Increase spending by 49% (we saw Bob Rae do it)

5. Bring Canada into a deficit of $10 billion right away, and then $100 billion after 4 years.

No tax cuts for the Middle Class or Rich... no way they would ever do something to help us.

[tml12]

Im glad you see my point.

I am still totaly anti-NDP. If they had a Majority Government, they would probably...

1. Raise the GST from 7% to 9%

2. Take the GST off of Childrens Clothes and school supplies

3. Enforce a new tax that will be 5% for things that pollute ect.

4. Increase spending by 49% (we saw Bob Rae do it)

5. Bring Canada into a deficit of $10 billion right away, and then $100 billion after 4 years.

No tax cuts for the Middle Class or Rich... no way they would ever do something to help us.

It wouldn't surprise me. A vote for the Liberals is a vote for lack of self-respect. A vote for the NDP is a vote for all of the above. A vote for the CPC is a vote for a strong Canada.

[BubberMiley]

You're inventing platforms for them. It's easy to argue against a party if you create positions for them with no research into where they actually stand. In the last election they said they wouldn't raise taxes and they would continue with a balanced budget.

You could look at NDP governments that actually exist to see what they do when they're in power. Manitoba has had one for nearly 7 years. They haven't raised taxes at all--in fact reduced personal income taxes for the middle class in the last budget--and have run a balanced budget every year.

The NDP recognizes that wealth doesn't just appear out of nowhere, and it recognizes that social programs won't last very long if you need to go in debt to pay for them. They also recognize that personal income taxes can't go any higher and they should come down for middle income earners.

[geoffrey]

We all pay too much taxes. The fact that as a student I pay about $5000 in taxes a year (I do make more than the average student, but my point follows) is ridiculous. Whatever happened to encouraging people to make something of their lives and contribute to society? I could be like the rest of the students out there that sit on their asses and cry because they realise they can't graduate debt free when you haven't done a minute of work in your life. I don't come from any vast amount of money, I don't have access to anything most university students don't have.

These taxes are incrediably unjust as is. I pay for these people's financial assistance and whatever the Liberals and NDP have promised, because I choose to work and they choose to sit around all day on their asses.

I'm seriously sick of this entitlement to have the government feed you with a silver spoon. It makes me angry that these university students have the nerve to bitch and complain to the government that tution costs to much and all that as well. These are the same people that just hang out and drink all day (which I love to do, after I've paid for it).

This country has some serious social problems, and it all centres around this sense that everything should be handed to you. It's almost unbelievable how dependant Canadians have become on that carrot the government holds in front of our noses.

Justify that to me. I'd really like to hear a leftist (or conservative if it exists) opinion on why I should support my peers because I have work ethic and they don't?

EDIT: By the way, I'm do support public health insurance and schools and stuff, I don't mind paying taxes, I'm just sick of supporting those who are lazy. Everyone in Canada pays too much tax.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Im glad you see my point.

I am still totaly anti-NDP. If they had a Majority Government, they would probably...

1. Raise the GST from 7% to 9%

2. Take the GST off of Childrens Clothes and school supplies

3. Enforce a new tax that will be 5% for things that pollute ect.

4. Increase spending by 49% (we saw Bob Rae do it)

5. Bring Canada into a deficit of $10 billion right away, and then $100 billion after 4 years.

No tax cuts for the Middle Class or Rich... no way they would ever do something to help us.

This post just goes to show you how people do not research before posting. Where are you pulling these numbers from ?

If you would of looked at the NDP's, plan you would of seen that they're committed to not increasing taxes and keeping a balance budget. They've also agreed with reducing the lowest personal income tax rate. What they don't agree with is the massive tax cut offered to business without any incentives (like actually creating new jobs) or strings attached.

[lost&outofcontrol]

We all pay too much taxes....

We pay on average 6% more in taxes than americans. The richest 30% of the population in Canada pays 5% less than the same in the US.

[BubberMiley]

I'm seriously sick of this entitlement to have the government feed you with a silver spoon. It makes me angry that these university students have the nerve to bitch and complain to the government that tution costs to much and all that as well. These are the same people that just hang out and drink all day (which I love to do, after I've paid for it).

I don't think our post-secondary system is overly generous. As it is, it's difficult to get a degree without a $25000 debt unless you have help or a really good part-time job. That's a pretty significant debt considering they're still going to have mortgages and car payments and daycare bills on top of that. If you consider what baby boomers like me had to pay to go to university back in the 70s (a pittance, really), it would be pretty nasty of us, after benefiting greatly from that, to force kids to take on more debt than they already are. Now that I'm making money, I don't mind paying taxes to make sure the system remains reasonably accessible to everyone. A well-educated workforce helps the economy grow, and that too benefits everyone.

Besides, social programs should benefit those who need help, not those who don't, and I haven't heard any indication of rampant fraud in the welfare system today.

[geoffrey]

I'm seriously sick of this entitlement to have the government feed you with a silver spoon. It makes me angry that these university students have the nerve to bitch and complain to the government that tution costs to much and all that as well. These are the same people that just hang out and drink all day (which I love to do, after I've paid for it).

I don't think our post-secondary system is overly generous. As it is, it's difficult to get a degree without a $25000 debt unless you have help or a really good part-time job. That's a pretty significant debt considering they're still going to have mortgages and car payments and daycare bills on top of that. If you consider what baby boomers like me had to pay to go to university back in the 70s (a pittance, really), it would be pretty nasty of us, after benefiting greatly from that, to force kids to take on more debt than they already are. Now that I'm making money, I don't mind paying taxes to make sure the system remains reasonably accessible to everyone. A well-educated workforce helps the economy grow, and that too benefits everyone.

Besides, social programs should benefit those who need help, not those who don't, and I haven't heard any indication of rampant fraud in the welfare system today.

Work full time, how could anyone accumlate such debt? It's really not as bad as people make it out to be. I have friends working part-time jobs at restuarants and in retail and they are paying for everything no prob.

I don't think its overly generous either, I don't think its prohibitively expensive though. It's fine, people might just have to work to get out of it debt free. This is first-hand experience.

And to LOC, I don't care what the Americans pay, remember that they pay way more in debt service than us. Either way, there is too much fat that needs to be trimmed from the pig that Canada has become.

[BubberMiley]

Work full time, how could anyone accumlate such debt?

Do you mean they should work full time while going to school? With most programs that wouldn't be possible.

[geoffrey]

Work full time, how could anyone accumlate such debt?

Do you mean they should work full time while going to school? With most programs that wouldn't be possible.

It's completely possible, I'm doing it right now. I'm a Finance major which last time I checked, is pretty demanding full-time compared to 'philosophy' or whatever we give most of those people student loans for. I'm taking full-time classes and I run a company as well, taking well over a combined 65 hours a week easy.

You just can't drink every night, although its pretty tempting, I'll choose to graduate debt free and financially secure.

[Hollus]

Work full time, how could anyone accumlate such debt?

Do you mean they should work full time while going to school? With most programs that wouldn't be possible.

It's completely possible, I'm doing it right now. I'm a Finance major which last time I checked, is pretty demanding full-time compared to 'philosophy' or whatever we give most of those people student loans for. I'm taking full-time classes and I run a company as well, taking well over a combined 65 hours a week easy.

You just can't drink every night, although its pretty tempting, I'll choose to graduate debt free and financially secure.

Thats great that your taking advantage of your time. No doubt your hard work will pay off. But not everyone is as enterprising as yourself, nor should they have to be. Planning for my first year of school next year its looking like $16000, and thats on a pretty stringent budget. I dont imagine a job with a masters in social work will garner the same wage as say a master of engineering. A big student debt wouldnt be so bad if you could come out of school and have a good paying career to pay down debt, but thats not true for every vocation.

I am kinda curious what kind of business you operate? Maybe sell me a franchise in Van?

[geoffrey]

Work full time, how could anyone accumlate such debt?

Do you mean they should work full time while going to school? With most programs that wouldn't be possible.

It's completely possible, I'm doing it right now. I'm a Finance major which last time I checked, is pretty demanding full-time compared to 'philosophy' or whatever we give most of those people student loans for. I'm taking full-time classes and I run a company as well, taking well over a combined 65 hours a week easy.

You just can't drink every night, although its pretty tempting, I'll choose to graduate debt free and financially secure.

Thats great that your taking advantage of your time. No doubt your hard work will pay off. But not everyone is as enterprising as yourself, nor should they have to be. Planning for my first year of school next year its looking like $16000, and thats on a pretty stringent budget. I dont imagine a job with a masters in social work will garner the same wage as say a master of engineering. A big student debt wouldnt be so bad if you could come out of school and have a good paying career to pay down debt, but thats not true for every vocation.

I am kinda curious what kind of business you operate? Maybe sell me a franchise in Van?

Vancouver really isn't my market, I support oil and gas companies (mainly, a little government work) with imaging of records. It's not much, but its solid income for a student and though its alot of work, it works out pretty decently with the schedule.

What are you taking that its costing you that much? Wow. At UBC?

[Hollus]

What are you taking that its costing you that much? Wow. At UBC?

Ive included living expenses in that price.