Canada's wealthiest province utterly rejects the left

[geoffrey]

I'll give them that they manage their resources better than the rest of us.

I'm not even sure they do that. For example, the royalties the government collects on oil and gas (again, on behalf of the people of Alberta) are among the lowest of any oil-producing juridstiction (60 per cent lower than Alaska), meaning the government is letting oil companies make off with the people's resources for a song. In fact, royaltyies today are roughly half what they were during the Lougheed era, leading one to wonder just how much of the spending and program cuts of the 1990s could have been avoided if the Alberta government actually operated in the public interest.

Maybe our more competitive resource royalties is why our resources are more developed then say Saskatchewan's or Newfoundland's. Thats like saying you should tax more just because you can. How ridiculous.

[Wilber]

When I was working in Anchorage the average annual rebate cheques was around $1100 USD per Alaskan, a little more than Ralph's $400 CAD. Alaska also has no sales tax or state income tax. Alberta probably could do a little better.

[Black Dog]

Maybe our more competitive resource royalties is why our resources are more developed then say Saskatchewan's or Newfoundland's. Thats like saying you should tax more just because you can. How ridiculous.

Higher royalties haven't hurt Alaska and Norway economically, nor did it hurt the Alberta industry in the mid '70s. It's not as though oil companies are able to just move operations elsewhere. We have the most oil, so if they want it, they have to do business with us. What's more, resource royalties are not taxes: they are a fee charged on the sale of publicly-owned resources to private interests.

[sage]

Black Dog by your implication Alberta may as well double, hell triple their royalty rates. Then send every Albertan a cheque for $1,000, $2,000, maybe $5,000. You go down this path far enough you come to the realization eventually if your royalties were high enough, production would slow, people would be laid off, real estate prices would fall, construction would dwindle, you see where I'm going this.

The fact remains taxation and royalty structure do play a role in driving an economy forward.

Take Saskatchewan. The oil and gas does not end at the Alberta-Saskatchewan border, even Alberta's precious oil sands are found in Saskatchewan. We have resources Alberta does not have (uranium and potash), yet our economy surely is not on par with AB's, why? One reason is becuase SK taxed the shit out of oil and gas production early and so it thrived in AB. SK also has a capital tax on corporations that try to set up shop here.

Don't tell me AB's fiscal policies have nothing to do with its success. I agree they aren't the sole reason, but you have to give them some credit.

[Black Dog]

Black Dog by your implication Alberta may as well double, hell triple their royalty rates. Then send every Albertan a cheque for $1,000, $2,000, maybe $5,000. You go down this path far enough you come to the realization eventually if your royalties were high enough, production would slow, people would be laid off, real estate prices would fall, construction would dwindle, you see where I'm going this.

Hardly. By most reckonings, we're entering an era where global demand for oil is spiking as available supplies are falling. That means prices increase, which in turn means higher revenues for oil companies. In such an environment, royalties could be doubled with no apppreciable affect on our economy. Businesses would continue to set up shop here because this is where the oil is. And I'm certainly not advocating the money be given to Albertans (I think the Ralphbucks idea is completely ridiculous). I'd like to see some investment in health care (Alberta's spending on health as a percentage of its economy hasn't budged in years) and infrastructure.

Don't tell me AB's fiscal policies have nothing to do with its success. I agree they aren't the sole reason, but you have to give them some credit.

Alberta has a fiscal policy? You'll forgive my surprise. I've been left with the impression that spending decisions here are made on a purely ad hoc basis and are based more around ensuring perpetual Torydom than creating any lasting legacy.

[sage]

Fair enough Black Dog but if fiscal policies have nothing to do economic development, why is BC and SK lagging behind?

[Hydraboss]

Black Dog by your implication Alberta may as well double, hell triple their royalty rates. Then send every Albertan a cheque for $1,000, $2,000, maybe $5,000. You go down this path far enough you come to the realization eventually if your royalties were high enough, production would slow, people would be laid off, real estate prices would fall, construction would dwindle, you see where I'm going this.

The fact remains taxation and royalty structure do play a role in driving an economy forward.

Take Saskatchewan. The oil and gas does not end at the Alberta-Saskatchewan border, even Alberta's precious oil sands are found in Saskatchewan. We have resources Alberta does not have (uranium and potash), yet our economy surely is not on par with AB's, why? One reason is becuase SK taxed the shit out of oil and gas production early and so it thrived in AB. SK also has a capital tax on corporations that try to set up shop here.

Don't tell me AB's fiscal policies have nothing to do with its success. I agree they aren't the sole reason, but you have to give them some credit.

Bang on. Do you want to see the effects of "reasonable" royalties?

www.nickles.com/rig/

Active drilling rigs today:

Sask 51

BC 136

Alta 543

The oil and gas reserves in NE BC are comparable, if not in excess, of the average Alberta wells. Saskatchewan is pretty much on par. So why do all the oil companies drill here?

1) Reduced energy royalties

2) An absence of union oilfield labour

3) Low business tax

4) Pro-business government policies

Do the majority of Albertans like Tory policies? Must. Keep electing them. The only thing that spooks O&G companies that operate in this province is the spectre of Kyoto (aka The Great Overseas Money Transfer)

[FTA Lawyer]

Don't tell me AB's fiscal policies have nothing to do with its success. I agree they aren't the sole reason, but you have to give them some credit.

Alberta has a fiscal policy? You'll forgive my surprise. I've been left with the impression that spending decisions here are made on a purely ad hoc basis and are based more around ensuring perpetual Torydom than creating any lasting legacy.

Have you heard of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund? As ad hoc as things like energy rebates and "Ralph Bucks" appear to be, we have the freedom to do such things because we have billions of capital dollars stashed away in a rainy day fund that is set to make over a billion in income this year alone:

Heritage Fund forecast to earn over $1 billion in investment income in 2005-06

Second Quarter Update

November 16, 2005

Heritage Fund

Let's see...save for the future...don't spend if you can't afford it...make tax environment appealing to business...etc. Sounds like a stable, conservative (and proving to be very successful) fiscal policy to me.

That's why I vote for Klein, and why I reject the left on the Federal level.

FTA

P.S. My family will make the most of our $1,200.00 in Ralph Bucks...now if only "Harper Bucks" can get pushed through for my now two children under 6...I'll be looking at plenty of beer and popcorn!

[Black Dog]

The oil and gas reserves in NE BC are comparable, if not in excess, of the average Alberta wells. Saskatchewan is pretty much on par.

Actually, no, the opil and gas reserves in B.C. and Saskatchewan are not comparable to Alberta's. Alberta has mor ethan 4 time sthe amount of natural gas than eitehr neighbour and, while conventional crude reserves in ALbetra and Saskatchewan are comparable, Alberta has the oil sands, which accounts for over half of the province's total crude oil and equivalent production.

So, we have way, way more of the stuff here than either neighbour.

So why do all the oil companies drill here?

1) Reduced energy royalties

2) An absence of union oilfield labour

3) Low business tax

4) Pro-business government policies

See, unlike most, I don't necessarily see these as inherently good things. An economy is a means to an end, particularly when that economy is based on natural resources that belong to the people of Alberta, not the government or private companies. the people should be the beneficiaries of all this wealth. But what do we have? Roads, schools and a healh care system that's crumbling. Soaring prices for heat and electricty. Poverty and homelessness that continue to plague our neglected cities. A political culture of cronyism, centralization and corruption. But hey, you got your Raph bucks, your SUV, your oil-patch job, plus you get to bask in the reflected glory of all these go-go business types: who cares about anything or anyone else?

Have you heard of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund? As ad hoc as things like energy rebates and "Ralph Bucks" appear to be, we have the freedom to do such things because we have billions of capital dollars stashed away in a rainy day fund that is set to make over a billion in income this year alone:

Sure have. That's the fund that, thanks to Klein's brilliant fiscal managment policies, has managed to "grow" from 12.8 billion in 1985 to $12.1 billion today. Whoops!

[sage]

Complain some more Black Dog. You're wining about the state of infrastructure in Alberta? Try driving through Saskatchewan sometime and then we can discuss the dismal state of your highways and hospitals.

Take your $400 and buy a soother. Life ain't that bad.

[Black Dog]

Complain some more Black Dog. You're wining about the state of infrastructure in Alberta? Try driving through Saskatchewan sometime and then we can discuss the dismal state of your highways and hospitals.

Take your $400 and buy a soother. Life ain't that bad.

Oooh. I am pierced by your rapier wit. Has it occurred to you that comparing the infrastructure of the richest province with its poor neighbour isn't the best way to make your point? I guess not. But then, I can't say I was expecting a intelligent response: fundamentalist orthodoxies brook no dissent.

[sage]

My point was that you are complaining about the lack of infrastructure whereas I think AB has things pretty good on that front. To illustrate my point I referred to a place where infrastructure truly is in dire need of repair.

My point was and is that to a certain degree you should be grateful. (fair enough if we disagree on who is responsible for your provinces wealth.)

[crazymf]

Why should we embrace the left?

We just received our 2005 Resource Rebate cheque today of a non-taxable $400.00. Thanks Ralph and the government you have led in the past years. This money tells me that things are good in our province.

Why fix it if it's not broken?

Quebec and Ontario, you can't get this money from me in any way shape or form. That feels GOOD!!

That hurts crazymf... ...it is not my fault I live in the province with the highest debt, the least efficient government (provincially), and on an island that continuously elects Liberal and Bloc (left-wing) MPs.

And unfortunately I can't drive to Alberta to shop without sales tax like BC residents do.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt feelings. You are welcome here at any time and until we see you, I dub thee an 'honorary Albertan'. You have to move here to be a real Albertan and get royalty cheques though. Do it, soon. We have a growing labor shortage to match our growing economy. There's room for more.

[Black Dog]

My point was that you are complaining about the lack of infrastructure whereas I think AB has things pretty good on that front. To illustrate my point I referred to a place where infrastructure truly is in dire need of repair.

My point was and is that to a certain degree you should be grateful. (fair enough if we disagree on who is responsible for your provinces wealth.)

Alberta has a $7 billion infratructure deficit. For a province that prides itself on being debt free, I don't think that's an indication of sound fiscal policy.

[Hydraboss]

The oil and gas reserves in NE BC are comparable, if not in excess, of the average Alberta wells. Saskatchewan is pretty much on par.

Actually, no, the opil and gas reserves in B.C. and Saskatchewan are not comparable to Alberta's. Alberta has mor ethan 4 time sthe amount of natural gas than eitehr neighbour and, while conventional crude reserves in ALbetra and Saskatchewan are comparable, Alberta has the oil sands, which accounts for over half of the province's total crude oil and equivalent production.

So, we have way, way more of the stuff here than either neighbour.

So why do all the oil companies drill here?

1) Reduced energy royalties

2) An absence of union oilfield labour

3) Low business tax

4) Pro-business government policies

See, unlike most, I don't necessarily see these as inherently good things. An economy is a means to an end, particularly when that economy is based on natural resources that belong to the people of Alberta, not the government or private companies. the people should be the beneficiaries of all this wealth. But what do we have? Roads, schools and a healh care system that's crumbling. Soaring prices for heat and electricty. Poverty and homelessness that continue to plague our neglected cities. A political culture of cronyism, centralization and corruption. But hey, you got your Raph bucks, your SUV, your oil-patch job, plus you get to bask in the reflected glory of all these go-go business types: who cares about anything or anyone else?

Have you heard of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund? As ad hoc as things like energy rebates and "Ralph Bucks" appear to be, we have the freedom to do such things because we have billions of capital dollars stashed away in a rainy day fund that is set to make over a billion in income this year alone:

Sure have. That's the fund that, thanks to Klein's brilliant fiscal managment policies, has managed to "grow" from 12.8 billion in 1985 to $12.1 billion today. Whoops!

Actually, yes, NE BC has equivalent natural gas reserves. They tend to be less spread out in the region, but are in larger single resevoirs and of MUCH higher pressure. My statement did not involve the oilsands because I made reference only to conventional drilling, not mining (or SAG-D operations). You can refer to publications from CAPP (Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers) for confirmation of my statement. Therefore, we do not "...have way, way more of the stuff here than either neighbour...", we have simply welcomed investment by corporations and allowed superior development of our fields. That is false information.

[Black Dog]

Actually, yes, NE BC has equivalent natural gas reserves. They tend to be less spread out in the region, but are in larger single resevoirs and of MUCH higher pressure. My statement did not involve the oilsands because I made reference only to conventional drilling, not mining (or SAG-D operations). You can refer to publications from CAPP (Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers) for confirmation of my statement. Therefore, we do not "...have way, way more of the stuff here than either neighbour...", we have simply welcomed investment by corporations and allowed superior development of our fields. That is false information.

The CAPP is where I got my data. Their 2004 reserves estimate puts Alberta's natural gas holdings at 41.7 tcf, B.C.'s at 10.3 tcf. And, given th eoil sands make up mor ethan half of Alberta's oil output, setting asid ethat data is a bit disingenious on your part.

[Hydraboss]

Excerpt from CAPP site (www.capp.ca):

"Definitions

Established reserves are a portion of the ultimate potential that may be produced from a sedimentary basin. Established reserves are defined as those recoverable under current technology and present and anticipated economic conditions, proved by drilling, testing or production plus a judgement portion based on geological or geophysical data.

Reserves do not include resources estimated to exist but yet to be discovered. Total resource estimates are available in the National Energy Board’s Canadian Energy Supply and Demand to 2025 and Canada’s Conventional Natural Gas Resources – a Status Report. "

The PRODUCING reserves are 41.7 and 10.3 respectively, not wildcat numbers based on seismic. That is a basic understanding of ANYONE IN THE INDUSTRY. And again, leaving out the numbers from oilsands is not "disingenious", it is proper when comparing LIKE INDUSTRIES, aka conventional drilling. My original point was to indicate why the investment is here in Alberta. Tax policies dictate that unless the seismic is astounding, producers choose not to invest in BC. The same policies curb like investment in Sask, although it is getting better.

[FTA Lawyer]

Have you heard of the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund? As ad hoc as things like energy rebates and "Ralph Bucks" appear to be, we have the freedom to do such things because we have billions of capital dollars stashed away in a rainy day fund that is set to make over a billion in income this year alone:

Sure have. That's the fund that, thanks to Klein's brilliant fiscal managment policies, has managed to "grow" from 12.8 billion in 1985 to $12.1 billion today. Whoops!

The technical term for your last line is "sucking and blowing". If the Heritage fund were being grown since 1985 then you'd really be up in arms over your perception of the government's failure to spend on infrastructure, social programs etc. But since Klein hasn't unreasonably grown the fund, nor has he unreasonably liquidated it, you blame him for failing to grow it?!?!?!

Face it, Alberta has a sound fiscal policy...it just doesn't accord with your view of the role that government should play in our economy. You are welcome to challenge what Klien has or has not done, but the initial question was why Alberta completely shut out the left, and the answer keeps coming back to you that the majority of Albertans are happy with Klien's policies because they seem to be working here just fine.

Generally speaking, I don't want a day-care program or EI or CPP...I just want a bigger cut of my own damn paycheck and I will take care of myself much better than the government can.

FTA

[tml12]

Why should we embrace the left?

We just received our 2005 Resource Rebate cheque today of a non-taxable $400.00. Thanks Ralph and the government you have led in the past years. This money tells me that things are good in our province.

Why fix it if it's not broken?

Quebec and Ontario, you can't get this money from me in any way shape or form. That feels GOOD!!

That hurts crazymf... ...it is not my fault I live in the province with the highest debt, the least efficient government (provincially), and on an island that continuously elects Liberal and Bloc (left-wing) MPs.

And unfortunately I can't drive to Alberta to shop without sales tax like BC residents do.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt feelings. You are welcome here at any time and until we see you, I dub thee an 'honorary Albertan'. You have to move here to be a real Albertan and get royalty cheques though. Do it, soon. We have a growing labor shortage to match our growing economy. There's room for more.

I am an honorary Albertan!

I do wonder how long it will be before I move there. It is, after all, the most successful province in Canada that is dragging Canada into the 21st century with its modernizing health care, championing hard work, and reforming welfare.

Not to mention an incredible economy...

[Black Dog]

The PRODUCING reserves are 41.7 and 10.3 respectively, not wildcat numbers based on seismic. That is a basic understanding of ANYONE IN THE INDUSTRY. And again, leaving out the numbers from oilsands is not "disingenious", it is proper when comparing LIKE INDUSTRIES, aka conventional drilling.

'sfuny, but when I stated Oil and gas companies come here because we have more of the stuff, I didn't make the distinction between conventional crude operations and the oil sands. That was all you, which leads me to believe your ignoring the biggest part of Alberta's oil industry and the largest driver of Alberta's economy just to support your point.

Rather than plunge into a technical debate, I'd rather address the ide athat high royalties deter investment. That may be so to a degree, but "high" is a relative term. Alberta's royalties were roughly doubnle what they are now during the Lougheed era and the first boom. Meanwhile, other juridstictions, such as Alaska, show that high(er than Alberta) royalties and private exploration are compatable.

Again, basic supply and demand tells us that Alberta has some flexibility with regards to its royalty regime.

The technical term for your last line is "sucking and blowing". If the Heritage fund were being grown since 1985 then you'd really be up in arms over your perception of the government's failure to spend on infrastructure, social programs etc. But since Klein hasn't unreasonably grown the fund, nor has he unreasonably liquidated it, you blame him for failing to grow it?!?!?!

I blame him for using the Heritage Fund to pay down the debt at the expense of other priorities.

Face it, Alberta has a sound fiscal policy...it just doesn't accord with your view of the role that government should play in our economy. You are welcome to challenge what Klien has or has not done, but the initial question was why Alberta completely shut out the left, and the answer keeps coming back to you that the majority of Albertans are happy with Klien's policies because they seem to be working here just fine

Without going into a long treatise on the poverty of Alberta politics, electoral success does not equate satisfaction or endorsement. As is often said people don't elect governments, they oust them: in times of plenty (whether through fiscal brilliance as some here believe or through a generous helping of blind luck, as I contend) people dance with them that brung them. As far as "a majority of Albertans...happy with Klein", it's worth noting that in the last election, the Tories recieved less than half of the popular vote. When you factor in Alberta's notoriously low voter turnouts (in 2004, less than a third of Albertans voted), you're not dealing with a sweeping mandate. now there's an argumet to be made that satisfaction breeds indolence, but I don't buy it. I think Albertans, despite their popular "maverick" self-image, are simply docile in times of plenty, something the government promotes by constantly focussing on "western alienation", at the expense of internal transperency.

[newbie]

It is, after all, the most successful province in Canada that is dragging Canada into the 21st century with its modernizing health care..."

Well I live in Alberta and I'd like to know where you get the idea "modernizing health care" from. You obviously have not sat in our emergency rooms or made an appointment with a specialist lately.

[tml12]

It is, after all, the most successful province in Canada that is dragging Canada into the 21st century with its modernizing health care..."

Well I live in Alberta and I'd like to know where you get the idea "modernizing health care" from. You obviously have not sat in our emergency rooms or made an appointment with a specialist lately.

Which is precisely why health care in this country needs to be reformed.

[geoffrey]

It is, after all, the most successful province in Canada that is dragging Canada into the 21st century with its modernizing health care..."

Well I live in Alberta and I'd like to know where you get the idea "modernizing health care" from. You obviously have not sat in our emergency rooms or made an appointment with a specialist lately.

Blame that on the Canada Health Act not allowing Klein to do what needs to be done.

[shoop]

How would doing either of those thing prove how effective a province has been in modernizing health care?

Well I live in Alberta and I'd like to know where you get the idea "modernizing health care" from. You obviously have not sat in our emergency rooms or made an appointment with a specialist lately.

[Boondoggle]

I think one of the big stories of this election was Alberta's utter rejection of leftist policies.

The province that has been governed by conservatives throughout most of its entire history, the province that champions hard work, has no PST, has the highest Basic Personal Amount (about $6000 more than the other provinces), has the lowest minimum wage in the country, a flat--no discrimination--provincial tax, has a 4% unemployment rate, etc, rejected leftistism.

If a double-digit minimum wage and a bloated bureaucracy of rude obnoxious public sector workers in a monopoly--no competion--situation...isn't a testament to economic growth....

Creating over 3 times more jobs in the private Liquor sector with far more variety for its customers than the public sector....

And the left did its best in large inner cities with ghettos of grinding brutal poverty that is a testament to leftist policies....

Are Albertans just a bunch of dumb rednecked cowboys?

You make it sound like a good thing to pay someone sh*t wages. I guess as long as it's not you making the sh*t wages....

One could argue that there is another big story: Conservatives were locked out of Canada's major cities. Toronto has a bigger population than Alberta, almost as many ridings and not one is Conservative despite the fact that it's Stephen Harper's home town.

Last I checked, the financial heart of the country was on Bay street. The unemployment rate in Ontario is about a whopping rate of 5% - same as the US. Toronto is known as the silicon valley of the north because of all the high tech jobs. As far as construction goes, it's one of the fastest growing areas in North America, and you don't have that kind of growth in construction if you don't have a strong economy. The City Place condo project going up by the CN Tower alone is worth $1.5 billion. Donald Trump is building one of his towers in Toronto, and from what I've read, the cost to live there can reach up to $18 million. Now, if the economy is so bad compared to Alberta, who'd be able to afford that? If there's no market for it, why build it?

Yet Toronto is a Liberal stronghold.... Perhaps, the opposition to the Conservatives is so strong in the area because Mike Harris left Ontario with a $5.6 billion deficit despite budget cuts, which the Liberals will eliminate by 2008-2009. The Liberal government at the federal level, however, must also share the blame for fiscal problems in Ontario. By cutting transfers to help eliminate the federal deficit, they basically shifted federal debt over to provincial debt.

I live in the Toronto area and I agree with the Conservative platform on many important issues. I've even voted Conservative, but there are two sides to a coin, and you can spare me your regional supremacy crap because I can just as easily point out the strengths of Ontario, but its the sum of parts not one province that makes Canada a great country.