Pedophiles waiting in line....

[CCGirl]

Just want to back up some of my points with these links. Just read them, then we'll discuss.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_lD=27431

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,52098,00.html

First of all, your "sources" are not credible. World Net Daily? Fox News?

Second, paedophilia involves adults being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children.

How does this have anything to do with Homosexulaity?

Give it up, this is a red herring argument/outright lie perpetrated on society by the fundies.

[scribblet]

Just want to back up some of my points with these links. Just read them, then we'll discuss.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_lD=27431

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,52098,00.html

First of all, your "sources" are not credible. World Net Daily? Fox News?

Second, paedophilia involves adults being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children.

How does this have anything to do with Homosexulaity?

Give it up, this is a red herring argument/outright lie perpetrated on society by the fundies.

These sources are just as credible as any other, simply because you don't like them doesn't mean they are not credible.

It doesn't matter if you perceive a source to be biased as bias does not apply to corroborated facts, as established through multiple sources. A bias impacts on the level of factual selection and the point of view only. Simply claiming someone is biased or not credible does not eliminate the legitimacy of their information.

Whats a 'fundie' Somebody from the Bay of Fundy, or what?

[tml12]

Just want to back up some of my points with these links. Just read them, then we'll discuss.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_lD=27431

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,52098,00.html

First of all, your "sources" are not credible. World Net Daily? Fox News?

Second, paedophilia involves adults being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children.

How does this have anything to do with Homosexulaity?

Give it up, this is a red herring argument/outright lie perpetrated on society by the fundies.

These sources are just as credible as any other, simply because you don't like them doesn't mean they are not credible.

It doesn't matter if you perceive a source to be biased as bias does not apply to corroborated facts, as established through multiple sources. A bias impacts on the level of factual selection and the point of view only. Simply claiming someone is biased or not credible does not eliminate the legitimacy of their information.

Whats a 'fundie' Somebody from the Bay of Fundy, or what?

That is true.

I think she meant "fundamentalist" like Christian fundamentalist. You know? Those people that are taking over the world with the quest for oil and world domination?

[fellowtraveller]

1983: He is thrown out of the House of Commons after accusing Speaker Jeanne Sauvé of being "in cahoots" with the government. That year, he is also temporarily stripped of his job as justice critic after he tells a Vancouver TV show that he supported the establishment of red-light districts and houses of prostitution.

1999: Alexa McDonough relegates Robinson to the backbenches after he tables a petition calling for the word "God" to be removed from the preamble of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Do you agree or disagree with these ideas?

Disagree with both.

Thanks for your honesty. A significant number of Candians, inclduing relatively conservative persons like me, see the former as simple common sense acknowledgement of the reality of prostitution, and the latter an acknowledgement that our government is and is seen to be a secular governemnt.

[scribblet]

Just want to back up some of my points with these links. Just read them, then we'll discuss.

Give it up, this is a red herring argument/outright lie perpetrated on society by the fundies.

These sources are just as credible as any other, simply because you don't like them doesn't mean they are not credible.

It doesn't matter if you perceive a source to be biased as bias does not apply to corroborated facts, as established through multiple sources. A bias impacts on the level of factual selection and the point of view only. Simply claiming someone is biased or not credible does not eliminate the legitimacy of their information.

Whats a 'fundie' Somebody from the Bay of Fundy, or what?

That is true.

I think she meant "fundamentalist" like Christian fundamentalist. You know? Those people that are taking over the world with the quest for oil and world domination?

Thanks.

Did you know that the ACLU has been defending NAMBLA

ACLU defends child-molester group

Asks judge to throw out lawsuit against NAMBLA for 10-year-old's murder

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: December 13, 2000

1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Julie Foster

© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com

The American Civil Liberties Union has asked a judge to dismiss what it calls an "unconstitutional" lawsuit against a national pedophile organization being sued in a wrongful death case after two of the group's members brutally raped and murdered a 10-year-old boy.

The $200 million civil lawsuit, which charges the North American Man-Boy Love Association with wrongful death, was originally filed in Massachusetts Federal District Court on May 16.

I have a link here I'll post with no comments, I havn't read it all, and can't verify itl. I don't want to do any searching, I don't like having it on my computer.

http://us2000.org/cfmc/Pedophilia.pdf - Sexual Ageism and age of Consent

[BubberMiley]

But that's not defending pedophilia. That's defending people from being wrongfully targeted because of their grotesque beliefs. Saying they were responsible for the boy's death because they advocate their bullsh*t obviously opens a civil liberties can of worms. I despise these people as much as the next guy, but we can't allow our legal system to be subverted just because we hate the way they think.

And obviously Betsy is aware of how everybody hates pedophiles and is just trying to promote a half-baked campaign to associate homosexuals with verifiable creeps to further her anti-SSM/Gay agenda.

[Black Dog]

But that's not defending pedophilia. That's defending people from being wrongfully targeted because of their grotesque beliefs. Saying they were responsible for the boy's death because they advocate their bullsh*t obviously opens a civil liberties can of worms. I despise these people as much as the next guy, but we can't allow our legal system to be subverted just because we hate the way they think.

Dude, don't you know the ACLU is a Satanic, Communist organization, what with its belief of free speech and all?

It doesn't matter if you perceive a source to be biased as bias does not apply to corroborated facts, as established through multiple sources. A bias impacts on the level of factual selection and the point of view only. Simply claiming someone is biased or not credible does not eliminate the legitimacy of their information.

Anyone who claims most pedophiles are homosexual soley on the basis of the gender of the victim and the offender is making such a fundamental error (that is: a error in factual selection) that bias is the only explanation.

[betsy]

What are you on about? Again, there's no active movement within the gay rights movement to lower the age of consent (except in cases where the law discriminated between different forms of sexual activity). If there are any such examples of mainstream gay groups advocating for the AoC to be lowered, by all means show some.

Then what is this?

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04030105.html

[betsy]

And obviously Betsy is aware of how everybody hates pedophiles and is just trying to promote a half-baked campaign to associate homosexuals with verifiable creeps to further her anti-SSM/Gay agenda.

Corrections, BubberMiley.......I am not against gays or lesbians.

I am however, against the changing of the traditional definition of marriage, which was lobbied by the Gay Rights Movement.

[YankAbroad]

IT HAS BEEN SAID OVER AND OVER THAT IT IS NAMBLA THAT IS BRINGING HOMOSEXUALITY INTO THEIR DEBATE TO USE THE PREMISE UNDER WHICH IT WAS ALLOWED TO GET THEIR OWN AGENDA LEGALIZED

You do realize that "NAMBLA" barely exists, and was most likely founded by the FBI under J. Edgar Hoover in order to humiliate gay political rivals by attempting to link them with child molestation, right?

Then what is this?

Right-wing extremist propoganda.

Lithuania simply equalized the age of consent for gays to be the same as for straights, which was also 14. Are you arguing that the age of consent for gays should be different?

I am however, against the changing of the traditional definition of marriage

Except that, as I proved in the SSM thread, there's no such thing as a "traditional definition of marriage."

[betsy]

Well I know this topic is sort of hard to read for on one hand I do not wish for the whole gay community to be put into question. I am sure that a good number of gays would rather just wish to live their lives without all the publicity/arguments attached to the controversy of SSM.....but on the other hand, when I read all various researches and reports....including the history of NAMBLA (with its previous association with the Gay Rights Movement), plus the lowering of age of consent being pushed by the Gay Rights Movement, I think I do have a legitimate question to ask. Even if the question may be painful for some.

The Gay Rights Movement's success in doing away with the traditional meaning of marriage had opened the gates.

It is nice if we can surely say..."Oh, it's only between consenting adults." But how sure are we that no genius lawyer would find that there is a slight loophole...or a way to twist around that?

Lobbying works! All it takes is a powerful lobby group.

[BubberMiley]

Keep trying Betsy. You'll find a slippery slope somewhere.

[betsy]

[

First of all, your "sources" are not credible. World Net Daily? Fox News?

Second, paedophilia involves adults being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children.

How does this have anything to do with Homosexulaity?

Give it up, this is a red herring argument/outright lie perpetrated on society by the fundies.

Can you give me a link to support your theory that World Net Daily and Fox News are not credible?

Sorry, I cannot just take your word for it.

How does this have anything to do with Homosexuality? That's the answer I'm looking for.

Why is the Gay and Lesbian Association pushing for lowering the age of consent?

[YankAbroad]

the history of NAMBLA (with its previous association with the Gay Rights Movement)

You can repeat this lie over and over in the hope that it sticks and people make some affiliation between the two, but it's not ethical nor moral -- especially given that "NAMBLA" effectively doesn't exist and never did, except as a teeny tiny group originally started by a conservative US government agency to smear gays.

As for the "Gay Rights Movement," your "reports" must not be very informative if you're capable of constantly erroneously citing a tiny and unrelated group like NAMBLA, but cannot name any major, well-funded and bona fide gay rights group in the USA or Canada.

Can you give me a link to support your theory that World Net Daily and Fox News are not credible?

This wasn't directed at me, but if World Nut Daily and FAUX News are your sources for gay rights stories, it's no surprise that you cannot describe a single major gay rights group in Canada or the USA despite your "extensive knowledge."

Why is the Gay and Lesbian Association pushing for lowering the age of consent?

They aren't, since:

1) There's no "Gay and Lesbian Association";

2) As has been pointed out to you at least twice now, and which you've ignored completely, they're not advocating lowering the age of consent, but bringing the age of consent for homosexual sex to the same level as the age of consent for heterosexual sex, which is typically lower.

[betsy]

the history of NAMBLA (with its previous association with the Gay Rights Movement)

You can repeat this lie over and over in the hope that it sticks and people make some affiliation between the two, but it's not ethical nor moral -- especially given that "NAMBLA" effectively doesn't exist and never did, except as a teeny tiny group originally started by a conservative US government agency to smear gays.

As for the "Gay Rights Movement," your "reports" must not be very informative if you're capable of constantly erroneously citing a tiny and unrelated group like NAMBLA, but cannot name any major, well-funded and bona fide gay rights group in the USA or Canada.

Please take note of the words "history" and "previous".

[BubberMiley]

Please take note of the words "history" and "previous".

Please take note of the words "bogus" and "irrelevant."

[YankAbroad]

Please note that you've still ignored the fact that NAMBLA has never had any role in gay rights, historically or previously, and you cannot name any truly influential organizations in gay rights -- historically or previously. Which bodes quite ill for the rest of your argument.

It's a bit like trying to write the history of North America by focusing on the activities of the Berbers in Algeria.

A real examination of the emergence of the gay rights movement would focus on organizations like the Daughters of Bilitis, the Mattachine Society, and later, groups like Queer Nation and ACT-UP (all four are defunct). Efforts to mention NAMBLA as "part of gay history" are simply an effort to defame through association, and are particularly odious in that they ignore the massively important groups to instead focus on an FBI front group which in its heyday had perhaps two dozen "members" (half of whom were undercover FBI agents).

[betsy]

the history of NAMBLA (with its previous association with the Gay Rights Movement)

You can repeat this lie over and over in the hope that it sticks and people make some affiliation between the two, but it's not ethical nor moral -- especially given that "NAMBLA" effectively doesn't exist and never did, except as a teeny tiny group originally started by a conservative US government agency to smear gays.

Can you please give us a link to substantiate your theory that "Nambla never did existed, except as a teeny tiny group originally started by a conservative US government agency to smear gays?

[YankAbroad]

Can you please give us a link to substantiate your theory that "Nambla never did existed, except as a teeny tiny group originally started by a conservative US government agency to smear gays?

Just as soon as you substantiate a legitimate knowledge of the gay rights movement by explaining the significance of the Mattachine Society, and why you elevate NAMBLA to a position of importance which is orders of magnitudes higher than that of the Mattachine Society.

Why is the MS so irrelevant to your "history of the Gay Rights Movement" (sic) that it doesn't even warrant a mention (if you even know what it is), but NAMBLA gets page after page of commentary -- despite never having more than two dozen members?

[betsy]

Please note that you've still ignored the fact that NAMBLA has never had any role in gay rights, historically or previously, and you cannot name any truly influential organizations in gay rights -- historically or previously. Which bodes quite ill for the rest of your argument.

This one's for you: The full history of NAMBLA. Just found it...and looked like to be the most complete in its description.

http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/NAMBLA

[betsy]

Please note that you've still ignored the fact that NAMBLA has never had any role in gay rights, historically or previously, and you cannot name any truly influential organizations in gay rights -- historically or previously. Which bodes quite ill for the rest of your argument.

This one's for you: The full history of NAMBLA. Just found it...and looked like to be the most complete in its description.

http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/NAMBLA

Whoa. I think it came from the NAMBLA site itself?

[YankAbroad]

Again, what relevance does that have to the "Gay Rights Movement" (sic)?

What did NAMBLA do that even has a relevant link to gay issues -- especially a link so important that it presumably overrides the importance of the Mattachine Society, Queer Nation, Daughters of Bilitis, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Human Rights Campaign Fund, Égale, GLAD, GLAAD, ACT-UP, Body Positive, GMHC, NCLR, and a number of very large and important organizations which you didn't mention at all? Would it be because you don't know what any of those groups did, do, were, or are? Probably.

You're trying to smear gays through association with an FBI front group, and you don't have the character to admit that simple fact. Some "expert reports" you have there.

I could just as easily argue that you're affiliated with the National Socialist Party of Germany, and when you dispute it, link to their history and a couple of articles written by your political critics which claim your aims support Nazism, but I've got ethics. You should try finding those sometime, along with learning a thing or two about the history of gay rights beyond what your blinkered "sources" tell you.

[betsy]

http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/NAMBLA]http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/NAMBLA

The following excerpts from the link above are...along with what I think is the most recent lobbying of the Gay Rights group in lowering the age consent (Mar 2004).... what has been bothering me, thus I'm seeking for answers.

"ILGA had passed a resolution in 1985 which stated that "young people have the right to sexual and social self-determination and that age of consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect." In spite of this apparent agreement with NAMBLA on the age of consent issue just nine years before, ILGA, by a vote of 214-30 expelled NAMBLA and two other groups (MARTIJN and Project Truth ) in early 1994 because they were judged to be "groups whose predominant aim is to support or promote pedophilia." Although ILGA removed NAMBLA, the U.N. reversed its decision to grant ILGA special consultative status. Repeated attempts by ILGA to reacquire special status with the U.N. have not been successful, but the group does exercise consultative status with the European Commission."

"Radicals like Pat Califia [15] argue that politics played an important role in the gay community's rejection of NAMBLA. Califia says that although the gay rights mainstream never committed itself to NAMBLA or its platform, neither did it actively ostracise NAMBLA until opponents of gay rights used the group to link gay rights with child abuse and "recruitment." As evidence, subscribers to this theory point to statements made by prominent gay activists which contain political assessments of NAMBLA's impact on gay rights. One such statement was made by gay rights lobbyist Steve Endean. Endean, who opposed NAMBLA, said: "What NAMBLA is doing is tearing apart the movement. If you attach it [the man/boy love issue] to gay rights, gay rights will never happen." Gay author and activist Edmund White made a similar statement in his book States of Desire: "That's the politics of self-indulgence. Our movement cannot survive the man-boy issue. It's not a question of who's right, it's a matter of political naivete."

[YankAbroad]

Most of the authors you claim are "prominent," I've never heard of.

And I spend a great deal of time doing work in the "Gay Rights Movement" -- you know, the one for which you cannot name a single major group.

Efforts to equate the IGLA's position that homosexual ages of consent should not be different from heterosexual ones with "lowering the age of consent" in general are highly misleading.

Again, not surprising, though, since your position isn't to learn, explore or make a cogent argument -- it's to attempt to tar gay people as pedophiles who want to rape children. Pretty contemptible on your part, really.

Incidentally, I doubt that the "art history" site you're linking to is an "official NAMBLA" site. Perhaps you should try linking from the web site of a relevant group -- you know, perhaps, oh, I dunno, an actual significant gay organization?

[geoffrey]

All members of this organization should be put in jail. Supporting criminal activity is just unacceptable, its really disgusting that society is ok with idiots like this that support sexual exploitation of children. Just like those that believe child porn has 'artistic merit'. Time for us to lock some of these creeps us for good.