Same-Sex Marriage

[scribblet]

I'm not religious at all and neither is my husband, we are against pot, and changing the traditional definition of marriage. That doesn't mean I hate homosexuals, I don't, they can have marriage and all the benefits, just leave the traditional definition alone. The reasoning behind voting against C-250 has has been explained to you repeatedly so I'm not going to type it all over again, - that horse don't hunt. Personaloly I'm pro choice ) and I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative.

Stereotyping people as 'religious nuts' and suggesting they hate someone simply because they disagree with you is ridiculous, people can come to conclusions and opinions based on reason. Harper has never to my knowledge made any kind of religious statements, I've no idea what or if or how often he attends church and I don't care - its his business. I don't go to church but I respect the view of those who do and leave them to it without labelling them for choosing to believe whatever they do. Its this type of rhetoric and pigeon holing that helped the liberals lose the election.

So why did Harper vote against C-250 if he's not a religious nut?

Did you not read what I said, one doesn't have to be religious to be against it, if it makes you happy to reinforce your views with repetition - go for it. Whatever turns you on

So why did Harper vote against C-250?

For the last time, go back and read what others have written explaining it to you, you obviously havn't read any of them, or you deliberately baiting, I'm not going back to look them up, but its been explained over and over again.

However, if it makes you happy to re-inforce your illusions with repetition - whatever turns your crank..

[wellandboy]

I'm not religious at all and neither is my husband, we are against pot, and changing the traditional definition of marriage. That doesn't mean I hate homosexuals, I don't, they can have marriage and all the benefits, just leave the traditional definition alone. The reasoning behind voting against C-250 has has been explained to you repeatedly so I'm not going to type it all over again, - that horse don't hunt. Personaloly I'm pro choice ) and I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative.

Stereotyping people as 'religious nuts' and suggesting they hate someone simply because they disagree with you is ridiculous, people can come to conclusions and opinions based on reason. Harper has never to my knowledge made any kind of religious statements, I've no idea what or if or how often he attends church and I don't care - its his business. I don't go to church but I respect the view of those who do and leave them to it without labelling them for choosing to believe whatever they do. Its this type of rhetoric and pigeon holing that helped the liberals lose the election.

So why did Harper vote against C-250 if he's not a religious nut?

Did you not read what I said, one doesn't have to be religious to be against it, if it makes you happy to reinforce your views with repetition - go for it. Whatever turns you on

So why did Harper vote against C-250?

Who cares. That was then and this is now. Suggest if you feel so strongly about this issue you work through the system to get this back on the table, whether through a party or a private members bill. The specificity of C-250 was flawed and I believe Canadians would be more inclined to accept a tighening of Hate Crime laws encompassing all Canadians. Then let the courts sort it out.

[normanchateau]

Who cares. That was then and this is now. Suggest if you feel so strongly about this issue you work through the system to get this back on the table, whether through a party or a private members bill. The specificity of C-250 was flawed and I believe Canadians would be more inclined to accept a tighening of Hate Crime laws encompassing all Canadians. Then let the courts sort it out.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Harper was successful in blocking C-250. Actually C-250 passed overwhelmingly with the support of the Liberals, NDP and BQ. Even some of the social moderates in Harper's own party voted for it. It is now law despite Harper's quixotic attempts to block it. Gay bashing is now a hate crime and Harper's irrational fears that C-250 would result in the Bible being declared hate literature have not materialized.

[wellandboy]

Who cares. That was then and this is now. Suggest if you feel so strongly about this issue you work through the system to get this back on the table, whether through a party or a private members bill. The specificity of C-250 was flawed and I believe Canadians would be more inclined to accept a tighening of Hate Crime laws encompassing all Canadians. Then let the courts sort it out.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Harper was successful in blocking C-250. Actually C-250 passed overwhelmingly with the support of the Liberals, NDP and BQ. Even some of the social moderates in Harper's own party voted for it. It is now law despite Harper's quixotic attempts to block it. Gay bashing is now a hate crime and Harper's irrational fears that C-250 would result in the Bible being declared hate literature have not materialized.

Your correct. My apologies.

[YankAbroad]

The reality is that people who are "opposed to gay marriage" for whatever reason are motivated more or less by homophobia. There's no other rational explanation.

I believe they've got a right to be homophobic if they want -- I despise "hate speech" laws -- but they don't have a right to institutionalise their homophobia in the form of laws which violate the rights of others.

[tml12]

The reality is that people who are "opposed to gay marriage" for whatever reason are motivated more or less by homophobia. There's no other rational explanation.

I believe they've got a right to be homophobic if they want -- I despise "hate speech" laws -- but they don't have a right to institutionalise their homophobia in the form of laws which violate the rights of others.

There are two types of people "opposed" to gay marriage. There are those like the Christian right in the States who say gay marriage or unions or anything is unconstitutional.

Then there are moderates who argue that gay marriage is fine as long as religions and governments don't overstep their bounds. I prefer the latter...the former is quite homophobic.

[normanchateau]

The reality is that people who are "opposed to gay marriage" for whatever reason are motivated more or less by homophobia. There's no other rational explanation.

Although you might be right, I'm not convinced that's what motivates Harper. In my opinion, he takes the Bible far more seriously than the average Canadian. If the Bible endorsed homosexuality, promoted homosexual family values and encouraged homosexuals to marry rather than live in sin, he might be a proponent of gay marriage.

[Bryan]

The reality is that people who are "opposed to gay marriage" for whatever reason are motivated more or less by homophobia. There's no other rational explanation.

I believe they've got a right to be homophobic if they want -- I despise "hate speech" laws -- but they don't have a right to institutionalise their homophobia in the form of laws which violate the rights of others.

People are entitled to their opinions. To label others with an emotionally charged slur just because they don't agree with you is every bit the bigotry to pretend to oppose.

[CCGirl]

When people say they want to "preserve the traditional definition of marriage", what exactly do they wish to preserve?

Marriage has evolved through the ages, do you wish to preserve the definition of women being property? Women needed their husband to help them get credit?

Or how about when marriage is used to secure bloodlines?

Or what about the definition of marriage that made it illegal for mixed race marriages.

For the people who believe "they" own the word marriage:

The institution of marriage has had a long and sordid history. Not always referred to as marriage, which is a word from the 14th century French (marier) to marry, this sacred state had slipped through history under many guises and forms.

Link

[normanchateau]

The reality is that people who are "opposed to gay marriage" for whatever reason are motivated more or less by homophobia. There's no other rational explanation.

I believe they've got a right to be homophobic if they want -- I despise "hate speech" laws -- but they don't have a right to institutionalise their homophobia in the form of laws which violate the rights of others.

People are entitled to their opinions. To label others with an emotionally charged slur just because they don't agree with you is every bit the bigotry to pretend to oppose.

YankAbroad acknowledged that people are entitled to their opinions by saying "...they've got a right to be homophobic." In any event, I don't believe homophobia is necessarily what motivates Harper. Religiosity is an alternative hypothesis. Social conservatism is another.

[CCGirl]

The reality is that people who are "opposed to gay marriage" for whatever reason are motivated more or less by homophobia. There's no other rational explanation.

Although you might be right, I'm not convinced that's what motivates Harper. In my opinion, he takes the Bible far more seriously than the average Canadian. If the Bible endorsed homosexuality, promoted homosexual family values and encouraged homosexuals to marry rather than live in sin, he might be a proponent of gay marriage.

That is the problem! Those who say they take the bible seriously are the most homophobic of all.

Imagine, using the bible to reinforce your prejudice :angry: Mind you, the bible was also used to condone slavery.

When I hear Stephen Harper say "God Bless Canada" at the end of his speeches, I want to puke

[fellowtraveller]

So why did Harper vote against C-250?

Norman, why did former Prime Minister Martin and the entire Liberal Cabinet vote against

same sex marriage - twice?

[Hicksey]

The reality is that people who are "opposed to gay marriage" for whatever reason are motivated more or less by homophobia. There's no other rational explanation.

Although you might be right, I'm not convinced that's what motivates Harper. In my opinion, he takes the Bible far more seriously than the average Canadian. If the Bible endorsed homosexuality, promoted homosexual family values and encouraged homosexuals to marry rather than live in sin, he might be a proponent of gay marriage.

That is the problem! Those who say they take the bible seriously are the most homophobic of all.

Imagine, using the bible to reinforce your prejudice :angry: Mind you, the bible was also used to condone slavery.

When I hear Stephen Harper say "God Bless Canada" at the end of his speeches, I want to puke

Most of us have no prejudice. I have gay family members and a couple of gay friends and they know and understand why I believe th way I do.

And if you have a problem with Harper asking God to bless us all, you might want to re-examine yourself because that sounds no less prejudical and disrespectful of my beliefs than you're accusing us catholics and christians of being.

[fellowtraveller]

So why did Harper vote against C-250?

Norman, why did former Prime Minister Martin and the entire Liberal Cabinet vote against

same sex marriage - twice?

[Black Dog]

Most of us have no prejudice. I have gay family members and a couple of gay friends and they know and understand why I believe th way I do.

I can't beleive you trotted out the old "some of my best friends are <insert minority here>."

And if you have a problem with Harper asking God to bless us all, you might want to re-examine yourself because that sounds no less prejudical and disrespectful of my beliefs than you're accusing us catholics and christians of being.

I have a big problem with it for several reasons.

Number one: it's an American expression, popularized by American leaders with clear American conotations. Find your own slogan, dude.

Number two: Canada is a de facto secular state and I don't think its appropriate for Harper to push a particular religios P.O.V, especially now that he's PM (and if you think that's biased towards Christianity, ask yourself how you'd feel if Harper was asking for the blessing of Alah, or Vishnu or some other such deity.)

Number three: I think it's a dogwhistle: a code to Canada's conservative religious right saying, basically, "I hear you, I am one of you." And, as a firm believer in secular democratic values, that scares the crap out of me.

[Hicksey]

Most of us have no prejudice. I have gay family members and a couple of gay friends and they know and understand why I believe th way I do.

I can't beleive you trotted out the old "some of my best friends are <insert minority here>."

And if you have a problem with Harper asking God to bless us all, you might want to re-examine yourself because that sounds no less prejudical and disrespectful of my beliefs than you're accusing us catholics and christians of being.

I have a big problem with it for several reasons.

Number one: it's an American expression, popularized by American leaders with clear American conotations. Find your own slogan, dude.

Number two: Canada is a de facto secular state and I don't think its appropriate for Harper to push a particular religios P.O.V, especially now that he's PM (and if you think that's biased towards Christianity, ask yourself how you'd feel if Harper was asking for the blessing of Alah, or Vishnu or some other such deity.)

Number three: I think it's a dogwhistle: a code to Canada's conservative religious right saying, basically, "I hear you, I am one of you." And, as a firm believer in secular democratic values, that scares the crap out of me.

Don't make assumptions Black Dog. One of my best friends and his mother are both gay. I didn't trot anything out. And I don't much appreciate being called a liar.

As far as your second comment, are we that afraid of a PM saying God Bless Canada? I'd expect a Jewish PM or one any other refer religion to bless the country as appropriate to their religion. It has nothing to do with endorsing a religion unless his policies support one religion over another. It's merely a show of love for one's country as far as I am concerned. If our next PM is an athiest and chooses not to say it, that wouldn't offend me.

[Black Dog]

Don't make assumptions Black Dog. One of my best friends and his mother are both gay. I didn't trot anything out. And I don't much appreciate being called a liar.

Good thing I didn't call you a liar, then. I simply pointed out that "some of my best friends etc." is a hoary cliche associated with people accussed of being bigoted. That's not to say you are...well, you get the point.

As far as your second comment, are we that afraid of a PM saying God Bless Canada? I'd expect a Jewish PM or one any other refer religion to bless the country as appropriate to their religion. It has nothing to do with endorsing a religion unless his policies support one religion over another.

See, I wouldn't expect a Jewish, Hindu or Muslim PM to ask for the blessing of whatever god or gods they worship. Religion is a private, personal matter, best left out of politics altogether, even in as seemingly an innocuous form as "God Bless Canada." (I also fully expect that many of the people who support Harper's borrowed catchphrase would have a collective shit if he used something like "May Allah's blessing be upon our nation.")

It's merely a show of love for one's country as far as I am concerned.

Then he should really end his speeches with "I love Canada."

[Hicksey]

Don't make assumptions Black Dog. One of my best friends and his mother are both gay. I didn't trot anything out. And I don't much appreciate being called a liar.

Good thing I didn't call you a liar, then. I simply pointed out that "some of my best friends etc." is a hoary cliche associated with people accussed of being bigoted. That's not to say you are...well, you get the point.

As far as your second comment, are we that afraid of a PM saying God Bless Canada? I'd expect a Jewish PM or one any other refer religion to bless the country as appropriate to their religion. It has nothing to do with endorsing a religion unless his policies support one religion over another.

See, I wouldn't expect a Jewish, Hindu or Muslim PM to ask for the blessing of whatever god or gods they worship. Religion is a private, personal matter, best left out of politics altogether, even in as seemingly an innocuous form as "God Bless Canada." (I also fully expect that many of the people who support Harper's borrowed catchphrase would have a collective shit if he used something like "May Allah's blessing be upon our nation.")

It's merely a show of love for one's country as far as I am concerned.

Then he should really end his speeches with "I love Canada."

Why are people so afraid of others religious expression? I do it and expect that regardless of their religion, or lack thereof, that others would as well.

And I think calling people bigoted that do not change their moral fiber every to meet every new wrong designated as right is very respectful. Asking me to change my mind is akin to asking me to forsake my religious beliefs. It is not bigoted to hold different beliefs than others.

[GostHacked]

Ahhh here is the end of this thread. I skipped over about 8 pages of the same old crap.

I support gay marriage. It does not infringe on your religious rights. If you think it does, it is because it is all in your head.

Consider the following.

Repeal Gay rights.

Repeal womens rights (equality and voting)

Repeal blacks non slave status.

When each of these events happened, the religious cast was quite angry on each of these topics.

All this is as dumb and retarded as not letting a woman get in the upper ranks of the church (catholic for example) If religion treated everyone with equality there would not be this mess. So religion in my view is nothing but bigotry. Ther church does not even recognize a woman as an equal.

I say charge the church, throw them in jail for hate crimes.

[Hicksey]

99% of us aren't against gay rights at all. In fact we're willing to temper our beliefs with compassion because we believe that all human beings are created equal. We just think that including that union under the banner of marriage goes against 2000 years of tradition and is not the right way to go about it.

Ahhh here is the end of this thread. I skipped over about 8 pages of the same old crap.

I support gay marriage. It does not infringe on your religious rights. If you think it does, it is because it is all in your head.

Consider the following.

Repeal Gay rights.

Repeal womens rights (equality and voting)

Repeal blacks non slave status.

When each of these events happened, the religious cast was quite angry on each of these topics.

All this is as dumb and retarded as not letting a woman get in the upper ranks of the church (catholic for example) If religion treated everyone with equality there would not be this mess. So religion in my view is nothing but bigotry. Ther church does not even recognize a woman as an equal.

I say charge the church, throw them in jail for hate crimes.

[justcrowing]

To add - nor does one have to be religious to want tradition maintained which does not in any way take away anyone's "so-called" rights.

99% of us aren't against gay rights at all. In fact we're willing to temper our beliefs with compassion because we believe that all human beings are created equal. We just think that including that union under the banner of marriage goes against 2000 years of tradition and is not the right way to go about it.

Ahhh here is the end of this thread. I skipped over about 8 pages of the same old crap.

I support gay marriage. It does not infringe on your religious rights. If you think it does, it is because it is all in your head.

Consider the following.

Repeal Gay rights.

Repeal womens rights (equality and voting)

Repeal blacks non slave status.

When each of these events happened, the religious cast was quite angry on each of these topics.

All this is as dumb and retarded as not letting a woman get in the upper ranks of the church (catholic for example) If religion treated everyone with equality there would not be this mess. So religion in my view is nothing but bigotry. Ther church does not even recognize a woman as an equal.

I say charge the church, throw them in jail for hate crimes.

[tml12]

Most of us have no prejudice. I have gay family members and a couple of gay friends and they know and understand why I believe th way I do.

I can't beleive you trotted out the old "some of my best friends are <insert minority here>."

And if you have a problem with Harper asking God to bless us all, you might want to re-examine yourself because that sounds no less prejudical and disrespectful of my beliefs than you're accusing us catholics and christians of being.

I have a big problem with it for several reasons.

Number one: it's an American expression, popularized by American leaders with clear American conotations. Find your own slogan, dude.

Number two: Canada is a de facto secular state and I don't think its appropriate for Harper to push a particular religios P.O.V, especially now that he's PM (and if you think that's biased towards Christianity, ask yourself how you'd feel if Harper was asking for the blessing of Alah, or Vishnu or some other such deity.)

Number three: I think it's a dogwhistle: a code to Canada's conservative religious right saying, basically, "I hear you, I am one of you." And, as a firm believer in secular democratic values, that scares the crap out of me.

BlackDog,

Your jargon gets more ridiculous as days go by.

"God Bless Canada" is not a uniquely Christian expression. Jews say "God" too as one example. It is also not a uniquely American expression either.

As is typical of the far left you associate that with Harper trying to tie up his conservative base and "Christianize" Canada.

It is just silliness.

[Black Dog]

Why are people so afraid of others religious expression? I do it and expect that regardless of their religion, or lack thereof, that others would as well.

We're not talking about "religious expression", we're talking taking religion from the private, personal realm and bringing it into the political. I don't care if Stephen Harper, the man, goes to church. I do care if his religious beliefs colour his policy, policy which affects Candians of all religious beliefs.

And I think calling people bigoted that do not change their moral fiber every to meet every new wrong designated as right is very respectful. Asking me to change my mind is akin to asking me to forsake my religious beliefs. It is not bigoted to hold different beliefs than others.

Bigotry is the expressed belief in the superiority of one's own beliefs over others (it's a term that has it's origins in religious sectarianism). so, bigotry is not holding different beliefs: it's the idea that your beliefs should trump others'. Anyone who believes (for example) that gay marriage is wrong because homosexuality is wrong can rightfully be labelled a bigot.

"God Bless Canada" is not a uniquely Christian expression. Jews say "God" too as one example. It is also not a uniquely American expression either

"God Bless America" is a patriotic song. God Bless America is a phrase commonly used by American presidents. Can you please tell me what other nations commonly employ "God Bless ...." in such a way?

[Hicksey]

Why are people so afraid of others religious expression? I do it and expect that regardless of their religion, or lack thereof, that others would as well.

We're not talking about "religious expression", we're talking taking religion from the private, personal realm and bringing it into the political. I don't care if Stephen Harper, the man, goes to church. I do care if his religious beliefs colour his policy, policy which affects Candians of all religious beliefs.

So I guess PMs lose their right to religious expression when they're elected?

And I think calling people bigoted that do not change their moral fiber every to meet every new wrong designated as right is very respectful. Asking me to change my mind is akin to asking me to forsake my religious beliefs. It is not bigoted to hold different beliefs than others.

Bigotry is the expressed belief in the superiority of one's own beliefs over others (it's a term that has it's origins in religious sectarianism). so, bigotry is not holding different beliefs: it's the idea that your beliefs should trump others'. Anyone who believes (for example) that gay marriage is wrong because homosexuality is wrong can rightfully be labelled a bigot.

Aren't people naturally going to hold their own religious beliefs above those of others? So as long as I defer to the beliefs of other people before my own I am not a bigot? Is that what you are getting at?

[CCGirl]

So I guess PMs lose their right to religious expression when they're elected?

Yes, they do lose their right to PUBLICLY express ANY religious belief. I do not want to hear referal to God, Allah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jehovah, Yahweh or any other deity! He is free to attend church, pray, etc. on his own time.

Aren't people naturally going to hold their own religious beliefs above those of others? So as long as I defer to the beliefs of other people before my own I am not a bigot? Is that what you are getting at?

No, great leaders can seperate their private and public duties. I expect an MP/PM to NOT impose their own beliefs on the population at large. Once elected, you agree to represent all of your people.

We do not live in a theocracy. Besides the USA, name ONE other country that says "God bless <Nation>". This is unheard of in Canada, or anywhere else for that matter. :angry: