Make convicted gang members serve time in the military.

[Harare]

without pay - just room and board. Are you for or against?

For:

It's cheaper.

It will free up space in prisons for lessor criminals

They will come out with a sense of pride and discipline and some usable skills with which to get a job.

They will have paid back some of what they cost society.

They will become much integrated into Canadian Society.

They will become good role models for younger siblings.

Against:

Should be teach gang members how to use explosives and grenades and bigger guns

Should be teach gang members how to make bombs

Should we let them have access to more weapons and ammo.

[kimmy]

An interesting idea, I suppose, but I do object to the idea of "without pay". I think that earning a salary is a part of the process of building pride and self-respect which you mention. Without pay, you're probably just building resentment of the experience.

Is it feasible? Perhaps judges could offer military service as a form of alternative sentence.

-k

[August1991]

Does the military want this problem? Is that what the military is for? What happens if they go AWOL?

In any case, the police first have to arrest the gang members.

[Riverwind]

Is it feasible? Perhaps judges could offer military service as a form of alternative sentence.

No way. We live in a time where we expect our trained killers to be boy scouts at all times. We are collectively 'shamed' every time a Canadian solider does something wrong whether it is a 'hazing' of an another soldier or physical abuse of a teenage thief.

Adding criminal conscripts into this mix would simply ensure such events occur more frequently.

[PocketRocket]

This is an interesting idea.

There are a lot of military jobs which do not involve shooting people or blowing things up.

Mechanic. Engineer. Electrician. Cook. Latrine cleaner. To name just a few.

It would alow the offender to pick up a trade, learn some self-discipline and self respect.

It would also, as previously observed, be a hell of a lot cheaper than keeping the person incarcerated.

Regarding the question of someone going AWOL, well, that's a serious offense with serious repercussions.

And military justice is a bit more, shall we say, expedient, than our civilian justice system.

Military penalties are also considerably more harsh.

Overall, I think this is a good idea.

[politika]

without pay - just room and board. Are you for or against?

For:

It's cheaper.

It will free up space in prisons for lessor criminals

They will come out with a sense of pride and discipline and some usable skills with which to get a job.

They will have paid back some of what they cost society.

They will become much integrated into Canadian Society.

They will become good role models for younger siblings.

Against:

Should be teach gang members how to use explosives and grenades and bigger guns

Should be teach gang members how to make bombs

Should we let them have access to more weapons and ammo.

That idea is a disgrace to our military. Your saying that are military should basicly be a place for punishment. Are military deserves much better than these scum joining their ranks.

[Wilber]

If you did this to the military, why would anyone with any self respect want to join it? This country has always taken pride in the fact that except for a very few people near the end of WWII, every soldier, sailor and airman that has served this country overseas has joined the military as a volunteer. Let's keep it that way.

[Harare]

There's lots of nice islands in the Artic where a boot camp could be set up.

Would you go AWOL if you were serving in Afghanistan or Bosnia...could you if serving on a ship. I doubt that most of these guys would want to after they got assimilatrd.

"That idea is a disgrace to our military. Your saying that are military should basicly be a place for punishment. Are military deserves much better than these scum joining their ranks.'

I don't agree at all - it's a recognition of the military's problems with recruitment and of their skill in making men of young punks from all walks of life. In most cases these kids are not "scum" just young men that are lost directionless and without hope or good role models. I'll bet most men that enlist come out of the lilitary with a whole lot more pride and self worth then when they went in - kudos to our military trainers.

All lot of young underpriviledged men with no job skills or hope go into the military rather than become criminals anyway.

[Wilber]

"I'll bet most men that enlist come out of the lilitary with a whole lot more pride and self worth then when they went in - kudos to our military trainers."

Exactly, they inlisted.

[Wilber]

Woops, enlisted.

[geoffrey]

Comparing military people to criminals is not really a good idea. I have many friends in the military and these people have extremely high ethical and moral standard about how they use force, and they all hold themselves responsible for their actions.

I don't believe many criminals have high ethical and moral standards, and very few are responsible to themselves.

I believe a system of forced labour (building roads, snow removal, digging ditches, ect.) is way more effective. In these positions, moral and ethical beliefs by the worker are pretty much of no consequence.

I also agree with kimmy that these do need to be paid, in order for these people to begin to understand society again and gain some self-respect and reason to go out and live a productive life after their sentance expires. No need to pay them on par with normal workers in the industry though, because we do give them room and board... or perhaps they should have to pay off their debt to the prision system by forced labour?

[Hollus]

Excellent idea.

I think the military would offer these people a far better chance at becoming responsible citizens than our current jail system.

Here's a qoute from investigation article http://www.newint.org/issue282/learn.html: "Prisoners in tense and overcrowded penitentiaries live in an environment where a knife to the throat or a metal pipe to the back of the head is a socially appropriate response to an insult or indiscretion. People may be attacked for looking someone in the eye, glancing into someone else's cell or, as in one case described to me, taking too long in the shower. Prisoners must be ready to defend themselves at all times and failure to retaliate will likely be exploited as a sign of weakness."

Maybe not so much for the hardened criminal, but for young people especially we need to make this an option.

I know young men both in the military and in the street life and as far as I can tell, they are not so different people, set along to very different paths.

Jimi Hendrix was given the choice between the prison or the airforce. If he went to prison would I be listening to 'little wing'?

[geoffrey]

Excellent idea.

I think the military would offer these people a far better chance at becoming responsible citizens than our current jail system.

Here's a qoute from investigation article http://www.newint.org/issue282/learn.html: "Prisoners in tense and overcrowded penitentiaries live in an environment where a knife to the throat or a metal pipe to the back of the head is a socially appropriate response to an insult or indiscretion. People may be attacked for looking someone in the eye, glancing into someone else's cell or, as in one case described to me, taking too long in the shower. Prisoners must be ready to defend themselves at all times and failure to retaliate will likely be exploited as a sign of weakness."

Maybe not so much for the hardened criminal, but for young people especially we need to make this an option.

I know young men both in the military and in the street life and as far as I can tell, they are not so different people, set along to very different paths.

Jimi Hendrix was given the choice between the prison or the airforce. If he went to prison would I be listening to 'little wing'?

Welcome Hollus...

For young people I'm not sure if military service is that great of an idea either. I don't really believe making the military into a prison system is a good idea. As one of those crazy Albertans, I'm proposing a private sector solution...

Have companies in Alberta (who are short on people) hire these kids on and give them meaningful (though forced) employment. Send them up for Fort Mac to work on the rigs or what not. They see that employment gives them money, and the hard work will build a little character. No cost to the taxpayer as the companies would foot the bill (though at a lower rate then whatever they pay their non-criminal employees).

In BC/Quebec we could send them to logging camps, Ontario send them to rural factories. Or just send them all to Alberta. We need them.

Get them out of the cities, and make them work, and they will change.

[Wilber]

"Excellent idea.

I think the military would offer these people a far better chance at becoming responsible citizens than our current jail system.

Would you join the military if you knew that one day you would have to depend on one of these people to keep you alive?

[mar]

I know I shold simply ignore this but I can't decide if the originator of this thread actually believes this or if its some kind of spam attempt to fill the board with ridiculous threads.

[Harare]

"Excellent idea.

I think the military would offer these people a far better chance at becoming responsible citizens than our current jail system.

Would you join the military if you knew that one day you would have to depend on one of these people to keep you alive?

No I wouldn't but I wouldn't expect these guys to be allowed to leave boot camp untill they had proved themselves.

Also you would be kidding yourself if you thought that every enlistee had a squeaky clean background.

IMO, at least in the US a lot of enlistees are drawn from poor and black or hispanic backgrounds who have few options and are to a certain extent compelled to sign up.

I believe, but have no direct evidence that most folks in the military grow in their morals and ethics while in the military rather than come into it with thise values already.

[Guest eureka]

Why not a military experience before they become trouble?

[geoffrey]

Why not a military experience before they become trouble?

Sweden style required military service?

Is there any evidence that this lowers crime?

[Hollus]

"Excellent idea.

I think the military would offer these people a far better chance at becoming responsible citizens than our current jail system.

Would you join the military if you knew that one day you would have to depend on one of these people to keep you alive?

Yes I would. As I said, I personally know some of 'these people', and what sets them apart is not so much morale integrity or character but oppertunity. Many of our criminals have been fighting battles their whole childhood, they have'nt had the chance to develop into contributing citizens because society hasnt provided them the frame work to succeed. The ciminal world exist partly as consequence of this. A gang member isnt devoid of the things that make a good soldier. I have no doubt that there are similarity between the two occupations. Lets not pretend our military is completely made up of morrally sound individuals, Ive met enough recruits through their civi jobs to know that their haiseing and love for weaponry isnt all about freedom and liberty. One thing is for sure: young criminals need the lessons that the military have to offer alot more than they need the ones our prison's teach.

geoffrey, interesting idea. The reason I like the military option is because we've got officers whoe's only job and concern is to build solid, dependible individuals. As long as our priority is rehabilitating these people to become responsible citizens. personally dont think private sector capable of this on its own. Look no further than the U.S to see how prison populations can be turned into underclass workforces, which not only

does it not rehabilitate, but also undercuts the livelyhood of whoever happens to work in the competing industry(see american textiles).

H

[Argus]

For those outraged at the thought of criminals in the military - relax. Many times in many nations with rather capable and pride-filled military organizations have found the offer of jail or the military to be of value in the past. That includes the United States Marine Corps - which used to be a favorite referal point for judges with "juvenile delinquents" and the French Foreign Legion.

The problem with this is that our miltary discipline is comparitively very, very --- very slack. If you were a young punk referred to the Marines or the Legion, you shaped up or got the everloving crap beaten out of you. You learned a very strict discipline. And if you even thought of misusing your weapons, well, it would be the last thing you did.

But as I said, there really isn't that much discipline in our military. The Charter, and various human rights groups would never allow it.

[BubberMiley]

Does the Charter apply to the military? I guess it probably does, but this might be a job for FTA Lawyer.

[Wilber]

"Excellent idea.

I think the military would offer these people a far better chance at becoming responsible citizens than our current jail system.

Would you join the military if you knew that one day you would have to depend on one of these people to keep you alive?

No I wouldn't but I wouldn't expect these guys to be allowed to leave boot camp untill they had proved themselves.

Also you would be kidding yourself if you thought that every enlistee had a squeaky clean background.

IMO, at least in the US a lot of enlistees are drawn from poor and black or hispanic backgrounds who have few options and are to a certain extent compelled to sign up.

I believe, but have no direct evidence that most folks in the military grow in their morals and ethics while in the military rather than come into it with thise values already.

You are talking about turning an all volunteer institution to a quasi penal colony. That is a huge change and will effect the moral of everyone in it. You have already said you wouldn't volunteer. Why would you expect anyone else to? You are right about the US military but they are all volunteers, they weren't put there by a judge for committing a crime, not now, not even in the days of the draft. This is something that no other modern democratic country has ever dared do to it's military and for good reason.

[Hydraboss]

"\" Yes I would. As I said, I personally know some of 'these people', and what sets them apart is not so much morale integrity or character but oppertunity. Many of our criminals have been fighting battles their whole childhood, they have'nt had the chance to develop into contributing citizens because society hasnt provided them the frame work to succeed. The ciminal world exist partly as consequence of this. A gang member isnt devoid of the things that make a good soldier. I have no doubt that there are similarity between the two occupations. Lets not pretend our military is completely made up of morrally sound individuals, Ive met enough recruits through their civi jobs to know that their haiseing and love for weaponry isnt all about freedom and liberty. One thing is for sure: young criminals need the lessons that the military have to offer alot more than they need the ones our prison's teach. "/"

I'm sorry (not really) but if I hear one more person blame youth crime on ME, I'm going to throw up on my non-subsidized shoes!!! Guess what? I'm society and so are you. These little bastards are not my fault, and they're not your fault. They are a product of themselves. Framework, my ass.

rant/

[Wilber]

"I'm sorry (not really) but if I hear one more person blame youth crime on ME, I'm going to throw up on my non-subsidized shoes!!! Guess what? I'm society and so are you. These little bastards are not my fault, and they're not your fault. They are a product of themselves. Framework, my ass."

Hey, I'm the last person who wants to stick up for these guys but it's not the military's fault either.

[Hydraboss]

"\" I'm sorry (not really) but if I hear one more person blame youth crime on ME, I'm going to throw up on my non-subsidized shoes!!! Guess what? I'm society and so are you. These little bastards are not my fault, and they're not your fault. They are a product of themselves. Framework, my ass."

Hey, I'm the last person who wants to stick up for these guys but it's not the military's fault either. "/"

No offense to the CAF! (unintentional if it sounded that way)

It was just the statement that I keep hearing that society this, and society that when it comes to youth crime. There was a time (my time) when I was held accountable for MY OWN ACTIONS. But this doesn't happen anymore. Shoot someone...must have had a poor childhood. Rob someone...must have had a mean dad. Knife someone...why won't anyone reach out to this poor, underprivelaged kid?

Because he'll cut your hand off with the knife, that's why.