Hostage politics: a sign of incurable division and Western democracy degradation?

[Hodad]

9 hours ago, myata said:

Meager, barely noticeable ones, in a microscope? For a blatant, unprecedented invasion of a sovereign European nation, since the WWII?

Sure. There's always a great explanation for procrastination, indecision and inaction. Will the history listen though? Will it make allowances, for useless, empty words? You bet it'll do the right thing - the only one that is logical, for the evolution.

What would you have proposed?

There was no all-out conflict. Ukraine was under the control of a pro-Russian leader who literally invited Russia to use force in Crimea. He invited Putin's army in. Are you going to send weapons to that version of Ukraine ? The EU wasn't doing anything. Do you think Obama should have gone to the mat solo for a country that wasn't fighting for itself?

I think it's clear that the difference between the Crimean invasion and the current conflict is that Ukraine was free of the Putin puppet and had new leadership and the will to stand up for itself. At that point it becomes appropriate to help them do that. 

Hindsight is 20/20, and if everyone had known in advance how the politics would play out maybe they would have done things differently. But without a ground war, I don't think there's much you can do to help a country that isn't trying to help itself. 

[robosmith]

51 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't think Biden bears any blame for this invasion. 

However, the situation in the middle east, is a testament to how weak Biden is seen.

There have been dozens of brazen attacks on US bases in the middle east.

You talkin about the dozens of missiles and drones the Houthis aimed at Israel which were destroyed by US warships in the Red Sea?

51 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

People see Biden as a joke. People see Trump as crazy.

Imagine, Kim Jung Un met with him to avoid catastrophic mistakes.

Him retaliating by hitting a weapons depot after major enemy fire hitting yet another base, comes across as a passive aggressive response.

This only amplifies the message of, if you keep hurting us, we will keep denouncing it, and potentially eventually find our balls and retaliate cautiously, because we're scared to do so.

Trump projects a power few will want to challenge, but an intelligence level many will want to exploit.

Why "people see" when you're talking about what YOU "see"?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, robosmith said:

You talkin about the dozens of missiles and drones the Houthis aimed at Israel which were destroyed by US warships in the Red Sea?

No.

The dozens on US bases within the middle east that were attacked.

2 hours ago, robosmith said:

Why "people see" when you're talking about what YOU "see"?

Poll numbers, and how other world leaders are acting towards him. My opinion of him, is he has dementia.

[robosmith]

32 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

No.

The dozens on US bases within the middle east that were attacked.

Attacks on US troops in Middle East have diminished, Pentagon says

Quote

The Pentagon’s last count totaled 73 attacks, Ryder said. Those resulted in more than 60 injuries, including several dozen traumatic brain injuries, but all troops returned to duty soon after.

....

Pentagon officials have said that counter strikes have degraded the militias’ ability to continue striking U.S. troops without creating wider conflict in the Middle East.

Seems like the attacks were lame and the responses successfully met their GOALS.

32 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Poll numbers, and how other world leaders are acting towards him. My opinion of him, is he has dementia.

When you get your MD and actually examine Joe, ^this OPINION might mean something.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, robosmith said:

When you get your MD and actually examine Joe

He is not all there. You only need to look at his speaking now, vs Just 5 years ago.

He is unfit to run a country.

28 minutes ago, robosmith said:

the responses successfully met their GOALS.

Projecting the US as weak, considering the the heavy handed amount of attacks. 

You don't attack a country like this when you are forced to respect the return fire you know you will get.

Even experts called his response weak.

30 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Attacks on US troops in Middle East have diminished, Pentagon says

Attacks that diminished in recent weeks, doesn't negate the high volume of attacks that basically scoffed at the US.

In fact, it confirms them o_O

[robosmith]

24 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

He is not all there. You only need to look at his speaking now, vs Just 5 years ago.

He is unfit to run a country.

He's doing fine and you can't vote so your OPINION means NOTHING.

24 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Projecting the US as weak, considering the the heavy handed amount of attacks. 

You don't attack a country like this when you are forced to respect the return fire you know you will get.

Even experts called his response weak.

Attacks that diminished in recent weeks, doesn't negate the high volume of attacks that basically scoffed at the US.

In fact, it confirms them o_O

You clearly don't understand the goal of not escalating the conflict. The attacks have stopped and the goal was achieved.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, robosmith said:

your OPINION means NOTHING.

I think its American opinion. 

27 minutes ago, robosmith said:

You clearly don't understand the goal of not escalating the conflict.

Escalation paralysis isn't the same as being calculated and commanding a respect that acts as a deterrent in itself.

[robosmith]

47 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I think its American opinion. 

Appeal to popularity FALLACY

47 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Escalation paralysis isn't the same as being calculated and commanding a respect that acts as a deterrent in itself.

No, it's much better and less risky than killing indiscriminately.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, robosmith said:

No, it's much better and less risky than killing indiscriminately.

I don't understand how being calculated is being indiscriminate.

20 minutes ago, robosmith said:

FALLACY

Confused how numbers lie, as regardless of where you look, any metric, the US is not impressed with Biden.

His performance speaks for itself.

He's really nice, and that's about where it stops.

[robosmith]

28 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't understand how being calculated is being indiscriminate.

IINM no one was killed by US retaliatory strikes on weapons depots. Or maybe just a few.

Had the effect of depleting their capability which was an optimal solution.

28 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Confused how numbers lie, as regardless of where you look, any metric, the US is not impressed with Biden.

His performance speaks for itself.

He's really nice, and that's about where it stops.

ONLY the MAGA CULT is impressed with Trump. Most people are unaware of what Biden has done for them.

That will change as the campaign and programs get rolling. It's still very early.

[WestCanMan]

On 12/10/2023 at 7:54 AM, Fluffypants said:

If that were true why didn't Putin just take it while Trump was President then? Why wait until Biden takes over if he was sooooo much more dangerous to Putin? Its not like Biden was part of an administration that essentially let Putin take a piece of Ukraine before. Oh snap he was.

Hodad has a huge boner for Biden, your words are falling on deaf ears. 

The fact that there's massive inflation, off-the-charts illegal immigration, wars everywhere, hundreds of attacks on US bases every month, rising crime, race riots, and volatile political rhetoric everywhere is a good thing as far as leftists are concerned. They hated 2019. This is WAYYYY better ? 

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

No.

The dozens on US bases within the middle east that were attacked.

Poll numbers, and how other world leaders are acting towards him. My opinion of him, is he has dementia.

What bases being attacked? There are no bases under attack. 

OK, maybe a few, but it's a transitory period. And they're Putintacks. It's all his fault, fer startin' the war. 

You better cease and desist with the malarkey you dog-faced pony soldier.

[robosmith]

3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Hodad has a huge boner for Biden, your words are falling on deaf ears. 

The fact that there's massive inflation, off-the-charts illegal immigration, wars everywhere, hundreds of attacks on US bases every month, rising crime, race riots, and volatile political rhetoric everywhere is a good thing as far as leftists are concerned. They hated 2019. This is WAYYYY better ? 

Thanks for proving once again that you lie all the time. You clearly don't understand the law allowing asylum claims for immigrants crossing the border. Judges hear the case and rule on whether they can stay cause most surrender to the first ICE agent they see..

[robosmith]

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

What bases being attacked? There are no bases under attack. 

OK, maybe a few, but it's a transitory period. And they're Putintacks. It's all his fault, fer startin' the war. 

You better cease and desist with the malarkey you dog-faced pony soldier.

No US military killed, a few injured and back to work in a couple of days. As noted previously. And no new attacks for over 2 weeks.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, robosmith said:

ONLY the MAGA CULT is impressed with Trump

Trump isn't impressive.

Biden is just doing that bad.

Same reason Clinton lost.

22 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Most people are unaware of what Biden has done for them.

Biden is probably unaware, too. Bless those who are actually running the white house.

[robosmith]

Just now, Perspektiv said:

Trump isn't impressive.

Biden is just doing that bad.

Same reason Clinton lost.

Joe hasn't started campaigning yet. The primaries haven't even started.

Just now, Perspektiv said:

Biden is probably unaware, too. Bless those who are actually running the white house.

You've just BLOWN your credibility. You're now making claims about things you have no way of KNOWING.

Pure speculation.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, robosmith said:

Joe hasn't started campaigning yet.

He needs all the reserve energy he can get.

1 minute ago, robosmith said:

You've just BLOWN your credibility.

Ok.

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, robosmith said:

No US military killed, a few injured and back to work in a couple of days. As noted previously. And no new attacks for over 2 weeks.

Those dogs at Reuters lie more than Twumpy! https://www.mtv.com.lb/en/news/international/1409742/us-embassy-in-baghdad-struck-with-seven-mortars-as-attacks-escalate#:~:text=Approximately seven mortar rounds landed in the U.S.,largest attack of its kind in recent memory.

[myata]

13 hours ago, Hodad said:

Hindsight is 20/20, and if everyone had known in advance how the politics would play out maybe they would have done things differently. But without a ground war, I don't think there's much you can do to help a country that isn't trying to help itself.

All of the above is explanations, 20/20. Not Ukraine: it's the West has declared great principles, law and order, "never again" repeated and chanted for decades and generations. Unprecedented invasion followed by illegal "annexation", right in the center of Europe, unprecedented in post-war history. Time to show the act, the true meaning of great words. The reaction? None, ridiculous by the scale of the violation. It's not about Ukraine how do you fail to see it? It's about you, what you do and are. If you say something aloud, once, twice and a million times but in reality do the opposite, a million times, what's your word worth, and you?

Putins, Xis and all kind of dictator scum today and future ones, know it naturally, see it exactly for what it is: pompous, self-indulgent weakness, of will and act. There's no cure for that. Pretty words are nothing to them, they'll wipe their dictatorial arses with all the tons of great words West likes to preach so much and set it on the table of the great world meeting, for the fragrance. And you won't even notice! Because you said it so much and for so long that you forgot the difference, between empty words, and the act, the result. Guess what miracles can happen in such cases? The dinosaurs know.

[myata]

"Biden signals readiness for a compromise with the Congress"

"Biden calls on Republicans to not give a Christmas gift to Putin"

Joe: you are a great, wise talker. But words do not make result, even the smallest of them. Your great words will go for nothing, if there's no result Joe. I'm telling you this now so that it's perfectly, crystal clear now and there's no room, anywhere even in the decades and generations, for great reasons and solemn explanations.

It has to be clear now, Joe.

[myata]

These times are going from troubling to outright frightful. A weak leadership visibly worried and scared of every tiny step, taking forever for decisions that were needed yesterday, years ago.. is this the way to stand up to a new Axis of brutal dictators rising? They see it all, every twitch and shake.

We thought it was about chanting never again and odes to joy.. but the reality is more simple and stark: the Time always comes back with questions, and challenges. And the moment you're weak of heart and resolve to face and overcome them, you fade. It was like this, because it's the law of time and evolution. Try to convince it otherwise. Find wise, great words that will move it.

Edited December 13, 2023 by myata

[myata]

Look at this: in the times of WWII, West gave Russia simply uncountable supplies of equipment, difficult to imagine 18,300 (eighteen thousand) of contemporary aircraft only from the Lend Lease program was lost.

In contrast, by today Biden administration gave Ukraine twenty (20) longer-range missiles. Russia routinely used dozens of those to attack a peaceful independent neighbor country, and in the 1990s Ukraine gave up her supplies of missiles and nukes in exchange for "guarantees" of security the true worth of which we can observe right now. Put the two in comparison, and contrast. What is it we're trying to say, with these numbers?

No one can be that naive to not understand that this is not about charity, not even about keeping a promise. It's no secret that Putin's agenda is a menace to the security and very existence of the West; he set of to undermine and destroy it. The take cannot be avoided any longer: Biden is a weak Commander in Chief.

He does not seem to grasp what is at stake here, and hesitates ostensibly being afraid to act when and as needed. Great words are never a substitute for will, and act that went missing that much we have learned from the history or had to. It needs to be said now, if only to avoid a too-late realization at a time of critical challenge.

[myata]

I'll preserve the instances of hostage politicking at this critical point in the history of the world, in case someone would read it and wonder. Not what we were thinking, hardly, but could do it, think, still.

- the Republican party of USA: hinging assistance to democracies fighting to defend the world order on some internal matters, possibly valid but with no logical connection. Hostage politicking as clear as it gets.

- Victor Orban, Hungary: attempting to divide Europe, attempting to extract financial assistance by blocking critical decisions.

- Turkey, a member of NATO: delays, together with Hungary, the ascension of Sweden. Once again, this is NATO at the time of a high uncertainty and a critical challenge. What is it (not thinking) showing to the world?

Others were seemingly inspired by these precedents. This is a developing crisis in the mentality, the psyche of the West. While the new Axis of tyrants is growing stronger and more bold.