Derailment of democracy

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, West said:

Her sketchy campaign produced the info to Barry. 

Really? You got ANY evidence Obama even knew about the Steele dossier?

1 hour ago, West said:

Is that why Bill met secretly on the tarmac with Barry's AG?

Doesn't matter. She recused herself that's why Comey made the decision not to prosecute Hillary. 

[myata]

10 hours ago, West said:

...they started a frivolous investigation into a sitting president which impacted a mid term election and degraded the democratic process, usurping the will of the people...

Nonsense, no logical connection. Who started it, the President's own party and his appointed AG? But as said already, no logic or brain ever needed to cheer as loudly as blindly and thoughtlessly for the new Idol.

We have seen it. We know how it ends. It's nothing to do with democracy. This crowd does not understand even the point of it, the democracy the need for it. Why have all these complexities, the useless stuff when the Guru will profess the truth of the day and that's all they need to live happily (not ever after: to the next disaster).

Democracy is in danger, and there are no quick fixes. Polarization is easy to unleash, but may take a lot more thought and effort to put back in the bottle.

[myata]

And I can suggest one of the easier ones:

as soon as the clown is nominated, just quit it. Done deal: it's gone insane and not viable no explanations needed and traditions long past. From a lunacy of this magnitude there's no coming back to the rational world but you can drag the society, the country still deeper into the hole. Only facts, all already happened.

No explanations needed. Don't vote for the other guy. Begin new, taking and understanding the lessons of the past. It may live. This thing, that's gone out of its rational mind so far away: no way. You can still think with your own brain, remember? Why would you need it, otherwise?

[reason10]

17 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

You are wrong about one thing. The United States is not a democracy. It is a Republic. I have been flamed more than once by American patriots for calling the US a democracy. I thought you claimed to be a patriot but your post is just woke propaganda.

I didn't say the United States was A Democracy.  There is no such system in ANY country in the world. I agree that the United States is a Constitutional Republic.

Democracy is at best a concept, of majority rule. That concept DIED when  voter fraud elected that senile pedophile Joe.

[West]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Nonsense, no logical connection. Who started it, the President's own party and his appointed AG? But as said already, no logic or brain ever needed to cheer as loudly as blindly and thoughtlessly for the new Idol.

We have seen it. We know how it ends. It's nothing to do with democracy. This crowd does not understand even the point of it, the democracy the need for it. Why have all these complexities, the useless stuff when the Guru will profess the truth of the day and that's all they need to live happily (not ever after: to the next disaster).

Democracy is in danger, and there are no quick fixes. Polarization is easy to unleash, but may take a lot more thought and effort to put back in the bottle.

No.. 

It was started by COMEY, president Obamas FBI director, long before Trump even took office. 

This was because HITLERY fed him lies from the Steele dossier

And if you think OBAMA wasn't aware you are delusional. 

Bill and Loretta likely did not talk grandkids on that tarmac

[myata]

1 hour ago, West said:

It was started by COMEY

Blind mobs worshiping their Idols. Rejoice and cheer or else. What democracy?

[West]

2 hours ago, myata said:

Blind mobs worshiping their Idols. Rejoice and cheer or else. What democracy?

You deny reality like every other leftist

[myata]

5 hours ago, West said:

You deny reality like every other leftist

Did Trump attempt to overturn a democratic election without any evidence of massive fraud that not a single court has admitted? Yes or now, a simple question. This is a simple fact of reality. And if and when a significant part of the population chooses to ignore it for the sake of blind belief, fear, promises of good life or personal gain, whatever the democracy will be in trouble. And trouble to follow, commonly.

[West]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Did Trump attempt to overturn a democratic election without any evidence of massive fraud that not a single court has admitted? Yes or now, a simple question. This is a simple fact of reality. And if and when a significant part of the population chooses to ignore it for the sake of blind belief, fear, promises of good life or personal gain, whatever the democracy will be in trouble. And trouble to follow, commonly.

The answer is "no". He asked the STATES to look at the constitutionality of the voter rules being changed last minute. 

I personally don't see why anyone would support ballot harvesting.

There was also major election interference by the media and the FBI who called the TRUTHFUL Hunter Biden story Russian disinformation. 

The SIMPLE REALITY you fail to recognize is the Russian collusion bs was a Hillary Clinton delusion from one of her mental breakdowns. It really messed up the country and turned it into a circus ?. The reason being is because democracy could not accept the election result of a free and fair election 

Edited July 31, 2023 by West

[robosmith]

7 hours ago, West said:

You deny reality like every other leftist

Your only "evidence" you have of ^this is the LIES you hear on FOS LIES. LMAO

5 minutes ago, West said:

The answer is "no". He asked the STATES to look at the constitutionality of the voter rules being changed last minute. 

I personally don't see why anyone would support ballot harvesting.

There was also major election interference by the media and the FBI who called the TRUTHFUL Hunter Biden story Russian disinformation. 

The SIMPLE REALITY you fail to recognize is the Russian collusion bs was a Hillary Clinton delusion from one of her mental breakdowns. It really messed up the country and turned it into a circus ?. The reason being is because democracy could not accept the election result of a free and fair election 

There's a reason you NEVER have ANY evidence for ^these RANTS. There is NONE.

[West]

14 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Your only "evidence" you have of ^this is the LIES you hear on FOS LIES. LMAO

There's a reason you NEVER have ANY evidence for ^these RANTS. There is NONE.

?.. 

Except the facts that Hitlery paid for the oppo research that derailed government for 4 years because she threw a major HISSY FIT that she lost a FREE AND FAIR election 

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, West said:

?.. 

Except the facts that Hitlery paid for the oppo research that derailed government for 4 years because she threw a major HISSY FIT that she lost a FREE AND FAIR election 

Except for the FACT that the FBI never took the Steele dossier seriously.

No, the Steele Dossier Did Not Invent the Russia Scandal

The report was faulty, but Trump was very, very guilty.

 

Quote

Knocking down Steele’s unfounded speculation is a real public service by the Trump administration–appointed special prosecutor John Durham (who in general seems to have gone pretty far off the deep end). But conservatives are not satisfied with merely correcting the record on Steele. They want to make Steele the underpinning of both the FBI investigation and the journalistic narrative about Trump and Russia.

But the Trumpist argument that Steele’s allegations formed the “foundation” of the FBI investigation is obviously false. The FBI began looking into Trump’s ties to Russia because Trump foreign-policy adviser George Papadopoulos boasted that Russia had dirt on Hillary Clinton to an Australian diplomat, who duly informed the U.S. government. That is obviously a very good reason to begin a counterintelligence investigation. The FBI did try to run down Steele’s leads, but it also had other sources for its investigation (and, indeed, uncovered a great deal of incriminating information).

The notion that the media started questioning Trump’s ties to Russia because of the Steele dossier is even more preposterous. While some insiders saw Steele’s reports, his dossier was not made public until January 2017. But nearly a year before that, the suspicious alliance between Trump and Putin was already playing out before our eyes.

In March 2016, Trump hired a campaign manager who had previously run a pro-Kremlin presidential campaign in Ukraine and appeared to be indebted to Russian oligarchs. In May, reporters noticed that the Kremlin’s propaganda apparatus was openly cheering on Trump, who in turn was lavishing Vladimir Putin with fawning praise. In July, Franklin Foer wrote a long Slate story putting Trump’s relationship with Russia in the context of both Trump’s murky financial ties to the country and Russia’s well-established habit of courting and paying off right-wing politicians in other nations; a few weeks after that, Trump asked Russia to hack Clinton’s emails on live television. This extremely unusual fact pattern raised the antenna of the national media before any of us heard of Christopher Steele.

IOW, you're FOS as usual.

[myata]

10 hours ago, West said:

The answer is "no".

That's a what was the word, "misrepresentation"? Trump's quotes (direct quotes). Not a single fact of verified evidence, mind you.

But that's not a problem with some individual, like I would be concerned if someone showed me such facts about my behavior, but that's highly individual. The problem for the democracy and the society arises when significant part of the population assumes mob mentality: anything coming from the Idol is taken as the final truth and anything contradicting it, a "lie", "fake", threat and anathema. No, you don't need to go far for an example, only to the nearest mirror. And of course, populist loudmouth politicians and media always oblige to drive less educated, higher influenced folk to that state of a mindless mob (see the OP).

Was Trump ever wrong in his political statements? Yes or no?

Do you know many folks whose every word is a shining example of wisdom and universal truth? Is he the Universal Modest Genius? (please don't be shy)

Had he ever lied (see the quotes btw)?

Can you still think critically and objectively?

Why in a community of civilized, thinking and responsible people a different thought would be ostracized and shut down?

Are you a political party, or a mob?

Nominating a pathological liar and quite possibly by that time, a convicted felon would be a failure of epic proportions, of thought, courage, will and act: a failure of the duty of a democratic party to the society. There can be no explanations and reasons for that. I don't believe there could be coming back from that, writing it off: to what? Collective blindness of reason syndrome? But it can create a new normal, new low and eventually down this path, pull the society with it into the state of dark chaos. You can see in many instances (not first world, and little to do with democracy) when results of elections are instantly challenged by competing mobs. This is the destination, make no mistakes. And why wouldn't it be.

Edited July 31, 2023 by myata

[robosmith]

Before Jan. 6, Mark Meadows joked about Trump’s election claims

Quote

Mark Meadows joked about the baseless claim that large numbers of votes were fraudulently cast in the names of dead people in the days before the then-White House chief of staff participated in a phone call in which then-President Trump alleged there were close to 5,000 dead voters in Georgia and urged Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to overturn the 2020 election there.

In a text message that has been scrutinized by federal prosecutors, Meadows wrote to a White House lawyer that his son, Atlanta-area attorney Blake Meadows, had been probing possible fraud and had found only a handful of possible votes cast in dead voters’ names, far short of what Trump was alleging. The lawyer teasingly responded that perhaps Meadows’s son could locate the thousands of votes Trump would need to win the election. The text was described by multiple people familiar with the exchange.

The jocular text message, which has not been previously reported, is one of many exchanges from the time in which Trump aides and other Republican officials expressed deep skepticism or even openly mocked the election claims being made publicly by Trump, according to people familiar with the investigation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the criminal investigation. 

 

[West]

5 hours ago, myata said:

That's a what was the word, "misrepresentation"? Trump's quotes (direct quotes). Not a single fact of verified evidence, mind you.

But that's not a problem with some individual, like I would be concerned if someone showed me such facts about my behavior, but that's highly individual. The problem for the democracy and the society arises when significant part of the population assumes mob mentality: anything coming from the Idol is taken as the final truth and anything contradicting it, a "lie", "fake", threat and anathema. No, you don't need to go far for an example, only to the nearest mirror. And of course, populist loudmouth politicians and media always oblige to drive less educated, higher influenced folk to that state of a mindless mob (see the OP).

Was Trump ever wrong in his political statements? Yes or no?

Do you know many folks whose every word is a shining example of wisdom and universal truth? Is he the Universal Modest Genius? (please don't be shy)

Had he ever lied (see the quotes btw)?

Can you still think critically and objectively?

Why in a community of civilized, thinking and responsible people a different thought would be ostracized and shut down?

Are you a political party, or a mob?

Nominating a pathological liar and quite possibly by that time, a convicted felon would be a failure of epic proportions, of thought, courage, will and act: a failure of the duty of a democratic party to the society. There can be no explanations and reasons for that. I don't believe there could be coming back from that, writing it off: to what? Collective blindness of reason syndrome? But it can create a new normal, new low and eventually down this path, pull the society with it into the state of dark chaos. You can see in many instances (not first world, and little to do with democracy) when results of elections are instantly challenged by competing mobs. This is the destination, make no mistakes. And why wouldn't it be.

Trump is a real estate developer, not a lawyer or an English professor. 

The facts are the behavior of the Democrats is suspect and they've lied multiple times, creating false stories and really making a mess of the fabric of a once great nation. 

[myata]

12 minutes ago, West said:

Trump is a real estate developer, not a lawyer or an English professor. 

So why there's a mindless mob cheering for him (OK that happens with mindless populations) and why thinking and conscious Republicans choose to stay silent or play into it? This will be the end of the party, and possibly the democracy.

14 minutes ago, West said:

behavior of the Democrats is suspect and they've lied multiple times, creating false stories

A duty of an intelligent and active citizen is to observe, bring to the light and prevent or stop any misuse or abuse of power. Whatever party they support and whoever was involved, the value of democracy is always higher (or has to be) than partisan interests and gain. Some Republicans stood up to the principle and were ostracized. I hope many Democrats will do the same if abuses committed by their leaders.

[West]

2 hours ago, myata said:

So why there's a mindless mob cheering for him (OK that happens with mindless populations) and why thinking and conscious Republicans choose to stay silent or play into it? This will be the end of the party, and possibly the democracy.

A duty of an intelligent and active citizen is to observe, bring to the light and prevent or stop any misuse or abuse of power. Whatever party they support and whoever was involved, the value of democracy is always higher (or has to be) than partisan interests and gain. Some Republicans stood up to the principle and were ostracized. I hope many Democrats will do the same if abuses committed by their leaders.

I personally believe all the hoopla about trump is just lefty mental illness. That's just me tho

[myata]

33 minutes ago, West said:

I personally believe all the hoopla about trump is just lefty mental illness.

So if he is nominated by the Republicans and the conscious part of the party decides to stay mum and play up it's no big deal? Business as usual?

[myata]

The mechanism of trumpism is quite straightforward. It is really no different from any known case of transformation of an authoritarian sect into a ruling mob. First, there's an authoritarian core, these people are deeply undemocratic actually if it can be called that, near perfect opposite of democratic thought and process. Institutions, processes, principles mean nothing to them against a word of the Idol that is never questioned or checked.

Secondly, by spreading a loud, intolerant and simple to the limit message, like only I can save you guys, they can attract the fraction that is easily influenced. Most modern democracies go through a period of challenge. There are reasons for that, the previous prosperity model based on mass production has run its course and the new one(s) is far from clear that creates uncertainty and anxiety. Nothing to worry, just push this button for me and all your problems fixed.

"I'll fix North Korea". Fail.

"I'll stop the war (Putin) in Ukraine". Fail.

But no need for reason or memory. The Idol has spoken.

But this is not all. Still remains a part that thinks itself reasonable, intelligent and responsible. 30-40% no less. The third phase that led to catastrophes before begins when that part decides to conform, merge with the mob for the price of complacency and indifference.

Back then, they could claim not knowing. Nothing isn't known about him now. This time around, there would be no rationalizations, explanations and / or excuses for pushing the button for the !diot. None. The price for a place in the mob is reason; intelligence and responsibility; and you pay upfront. Not to forget all possible consequences. Nothing new to be found here. Try again if you will, with full responsibility for the outcome.