Hockey, Olympics, Quebec, Bertuzzi

shoop · December 22, 2005

What about the racist taunts the Quebecois at the Sagueneens game hurled at Ted Nolan a couple nights ago?　Wasn`t that socially acceptable? Why aren`t you posting about that?

This is what i mean, its ok to bash at quebeckers, its socially accepted.
Weither its doan, cherry or avery, who cares... they never pay for what they say.

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The Honest Politician · December 22, 2005

I don't follow hockey so some of my following comments may make no sense.
First, wasn't Bertuzzi some hockey player who should have gone to jail because he almost killed another player? Why is this guy playing on Canada's national hockey team? He doesn't represent me.

His actions where no more violent than has happened in the past. The end result was perhaps one of the lower points in NHL history.

For the record Moore got greedy and tried to sue Bertuzzi in Colorado where injury awards are far larger than in Canada. The judge threw the case out and told him to file in Canada, where the injury occurred. He now has to pay the legal bills for everyone he accused, as is the State law.

Second, it seems like Quebec is contributing many players to Canada's team. (Is that true?) So, following Duceppe's idea, if Quebec had its own hockey team in the Olympics, it would be a good one. Presumably, this would make Canada's team weaker - but then again, Quebec's team wouldn't be that good either. However, if the Quebec team organized its own affairs its own way, maybe the players would perform better.

We could leave all the Quebeckers at home, and still win. The Quebec players know this. A Quebec Team would have to be very lucky to even make the medal round.

In fact, sports metaphors are fundamentally false. There is no Team Canada or Team Quebec going out into the world to play the game of life. And trade is not like a hockey match at all. The proper metaphor for trade is a good marriage.
This explains why people in small countries such as Iceland enjoy a high standard of living yet Iceland's hockey team has never won any gold medals. (Or has it? Is there an Icelandic hockey team?)

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

A higher standard of living is explained by a lack of a national sports team. I'm sorry I just don't see the conection.

The Honest Politician · December 22, 2005

What about the racist taunts the Quebecois at the Sagueneens game hurled at Ted Nolan a couple nights ago?　Wasn`t that socially acceptable? Why aren`t you posting about that?

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That was truly a disgusting display of human ignorance.

But at the same time, those fans use the exact same cheer whenever their own Native player does something of note.

The tone of the cheer that was directed at Nolan was definately not one of support.

Truly distasteful.

Riverwind · December 22, 2005

This is what i mean, its ok to bash at quebeckers, its socially accepted.

You would see the same reaction if a french player called anglo refs in Calgary 'fucking anglos'. What is socially acceptable is young atheletes mouthing off. Same is true of Cherry - he is an ass - everyone knows it and ignores him.

If a politician said something like that his/her career would be over anywhere in the country.

shoop · December 22, 2005

I saw that on CTV and I don`t believe it. I just got back from spending the semester living in Chicoutimi. I went to a couple Saguneens game and never saw that cheer. Never heard of it being done before.

Seemed a little convenient...

That was truly a disgusting display of human ignorance.
But at the same time, those fans use the exact same cheer whenever their own Native player does something of note.

The tone of the cheer that was directed at Nolan was definately not one of support.

Truly distasteful.

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seabee · December 22, 2005

What about the racist taunts the Quebecois at the Sagueneens game hurled at Ted Nolan a couple nights ago??Wasn`t that socially acceptable?

No, it was not not! That is why the appropriate authorities almost immediately apologized and decried those taunts. They did not go into a denial attitude.

The Honest Politician · December 22, 2005

I saw that on CTV and I don`t believe it. I just got back from spending the semester living in Chicoutimi. I went to a couple Saguneens game and never saw that cheer. Never heard of it being done before.
Seemed a little convenient...

That was truly a disgusting display of human ignorance.
But at the same time, those fans use the exact same cheer whenever their own Native player does something of note.

The tone of the cheer that was directed at Nolan was definately not one of support.

Truly distasteful.

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Well I saw footage of the cheer, as well as an interview with Nolan, and then one of the higher-ups for the team said it was unacceptable behaviour. The team doesn't deny it, so I don't see where you would get some conspiracy theory out of it.

Bakunin · December 22, 2005

What about the racist taunts the Quebecois at the Sagueneens game hurled at Ted Nolan a couple nights ago??Wasn`t that socially acceptable?

No, it was not not! That is why the appropriate authorities almost immediately apologized and decried those taunts. They did not go into a denial attitude.

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Exactly, with the doan case, not only he deny it but he get a place on team canada...

I Miss Trudeau · December 22, 2005

His actions where no more violent than has happened in the past.

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This came up from Yaro earlier in the thread, and the reaosoning baffles me.

Bertuzzi's assault doesn't even rank in the top 25 incidents in hockey history. Just curious how you feel about Bobby Clarke's incident with Kharlamov?

The issue isn't whether or not Bertuzzi's attack was the worst in hockey history, or even whether or not its in the top 25 worst incidents. It doesn't matter where it ranks in the annals of hockey thuggery, but rather whether or not this act is, on its own, sufficient to justify prohibiting him from representing Canada.

seabee · December 22, 2005

And the Saquenéens are not even close to representing Canada on the world stage. Shane Doan is!

Biblio Bibuli · December 22, 2005

Cheque's in mail for Czechs

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/story.ht...298b6e9&k=18487

I like the title.

The Honest Politician · December 22, 2005

His actions where no more violent than has happened in the past.

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This came up from Yaro earlier in the thread, and the reaosoning baffles me.

Bertuzzi's assault doesn't even rank in the top 25 incidents in hockey history. Just curious how you feel about Bobby Clarke's incident with Kharlamov?

The issue isn't whether or not Bertuzzi's attack was the worst in hockey history, or even whether or not its in the top 25 worst incidents. It doesn't matter where it ranks in the annals of hockey thuggery, but rather whether or not this act is, on its own, sufficient to justify prohibiting him from representing Canada.

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This came up from Yaro earlier in the thread, and the reaosoning baffles me.

Gary Suter got to represent the USA after nearly decapitating Paul Kariya from behind, weeks before the tournament. A tournament Kariya missed.

Clarke broke Kharlamov's ankle and was still allowed to compete in the same tournament.

Why shouldn't Bertuzzi get to go a year and a half later.

whether or not this act is, on its own, sufficient to justify prohibiting him from representing Canada?

Nope. No way. Uh uh.

Personally I would have left him of the team for other players. He has only begun playing any good for the last couple of weeks.

Canuck E Stan · December 22, 2005

I don't follow hockey that much but,is Bertuzzi really that much better of a player than some of the others not selected or has all the media attention he has gotten over the last couple of years just made him more " in the public's face"? Is it the same with Heatly? Is their choice on the team because of over exposer?

Yaro · December 22, 2005

I see a lot of face washing with gloves and a little sucker punch here and there. Seeing a player chase down another, wind up and deck him from behind with his full strength and then drive that players face into the ice goes far beyond the usual sucker punches that occur in every game.

He punched him with a gloved fist to the side of the head with hardly any windup. I said before it didn't rate in the top 25 worst incidents in hockey, I was being generous the fact is it doesn't even rate in the top 250. Want to see a vicious sucker punch? Check out some of Domi's work. What I don't get is why Bert got singled out more then others, if I had to guess it was because he has a history of being short with the media and they decided it was payback time.

If Bertuzzi honestly didn't think that such an action posed a very high risk of serious injury, poor judgment of that magnitude is more than enough reason to exclude him.

Moronic, people are struck far harder then Bertuzzi struck him without incident. It was a freak blow that knocked him out. There is no way any reasonable person could have concluded that gloved punch with little to no windup would have knocked him out, and it is a virtual impossibility that it did the damage regardless.

Your reply says nothing good about the sport of hockey. In my opinion, it's not better than legitimized roller derby with sticks. The league won't take violence seriously because it would lower the appeal rating for bloodsport fans, but it won't really be a worth my time, at least, until they do.

That’s fine, everyone is due there opinion, that doesn't change the fact that his actions were no worse then many other actions taken they simply had an unfortunate result.

I played hockey as a kid, and I know plenty about the sport and it's fans. The most asinine things I've read in this thread are all displays of defensiveness about how hockey violence is all part of the game. It's not. Football is a very tough physical sport, but you don't see nearly the same level of violence in football, because it's not tolerated, and it wouldn ruin the game.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Football is far far more violent then hockey. There may be less fights but players attempt to injury each other every single play; it is a code that is understood in football.

Because, you know, the Olympics have nothing to do with sportsmanship, god forbid. I'm guessing you, on the otherhand, are a world class... well, something.

No the Olympics have nothing to do with sportsmanship. I do find it amusing that you think they do, and yes I am world class at something and I know what kind of competitive behavior occurs at that level. Sportsmanship is great for 10 year olds, but you will never reach the highest levels of a competitive sport without doing whatever it demands of you to attain it.

Hmm, a classy guy having the class not to publicly disparage a colleague despite their different approach to the game. Besides which, an indictment of Bertuzzi is an indictment of the whole friggin' league, and every player knows it. Such is the sad state of the game.

No he didn't just have the class not to disparage him, he SIDED with him, and he stated shortly after the incident that it wasn't Bertuzzi's fault and that Moore was handling it poorly. The same with virtually every "classy" player in the league. But like I said if you want to believe that about hockey in general that’s fine, but singling out Bertuzzi for special punishment is not reasonable.

Funny, I don't remember chipped teeth ever ending a lucrative career. Is Moore still playing, or no?

Funny, you obviously know nothing about the situation. Moore will never play hockey again but it has nothing to do with his "broken neck", it has to do with the fact that he was at best a borderline player who tried to stick in the league by taking cheap shots at the leagues stars and because of the way he has handled the whole incident.

Perhaps you are unaware but a basketball player by the name of Wally Szczerbiak had a slightly more severe case of the same injury that Moore had, he was back in 2 weeks.

Shane Doan makes racist remarks.

Anyone who knows Shane knows this is patently absurd, the guy is probably one of the most verbally clean players the NHL has seen in a decade. The reason this never stuck was because everyone agreed that if there was something said there is no way it came from Shane of all people.

The issue isn't whether or not Bertuzzi's attack was the worst in hockey history, or even whether or not its in the top 25 worst incidents. It doesn't matter where it ranks in the annals of hockey thuggery, but rather whether or not this act is, on its own, sufficient to justify prohibiting him from representing Canada.

Of course it makes a difference, if you want to start punishing people more severely for there actions that’s fine. But to arbitrarily single a player out and make him pay 10 fold the punishment that others have had to pay before AND SINCE is unreasonable.

I don't follow hockey that much but, is Bertuzzi really that much better of a player than some of the others not selected or has all the media attention he has gotten over the last couple of years just made him more " in the public's face"? Is it the same with Heatly? Is their choice on the team because of over exposer?

Yes Bertuzzi is that much better, he is currently 2nd in scoring among Canadian right wingers and he is miles ahead of any other forward in the league physically. There isn't a hockey analyst in the country that will say that Bertuzzi isn't a very easy pick. Heatly is one of the best players in Canada at this point maybe even the best. Doan is a borderline pick but a class act and one of the nicest people you will ever meet.

At the end of the day how this ever spun into what it has become is beyond me and I am just glad that people who obviously hate the sport of hockey don't have any say in who gets to go.

wellandboy · December 23, 2005

I don't condone in any way what Bertuzzi did to Moore, but if Wayne Gretzy says Todd Bertuzzi is a suitable representative for Canada's Olympic Hockey team, that's good enough for me.

shoop · December 23, 2005

Both players have the skill and track record that proves they belong on the team. If the attack on Moore hadn`t happened there would be no question about Bertuzzi being on the team. He really is that good.

The people picking the team: Gretzky, Kevin Lowe, Pat Quinn (among others) live and breathe hockey. They know pretty much all the players in the league. Their choices definitely were not influenced by "over-exposure".

I don't follow hockey that much but,is Bertuzzi really that much better of a player than some of the others not selected or has all the media attention he has gotten over the last couple of years just made him more " in the public's face"? Is it the same with Heatly? Is their choice on the team because of over exposer?

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Black Dog · December 23, 2005

Bertuzzi's assault doesn't even rank in the top 25 incidents in hockey history. Just curious how you feel about Bobby Clarke's incident with Kharlamov?

I'd put in the top 10, right up there with Clarke's disgusting slash on Kharmalov, McSorely's attack on Brashear, Hunter's cross-check of Pierre Turgeon, Eddie Shore's hit on Ace Bailey and Ted Green's stickfight with Wayne Maki.

I've played and followed hockey my whole life and can say, without question, that the Vertuzzin incident was the worst I've ever seen.

The whole argument is asinine, the incident 99/100 would have resulted in a headache and because of unlucky circumstances and a large group of people who know little to nothing about hockey this has been blown way out of proportion.

"Unlucky circumstances"? Yeah: Moore was unlucky enough to be on the ice with a nut like Bertuzzi.

Never actually competed at a very high level of anything have you? Because there is no such thing as sportsmanship which you get to the level that Bertuzzi has reached, there is only the appearance of sportsmanship.

Have you played in the NHL?

He got exactly what he would have gotten if it had happened on the street, a slap on the wrist.

from the courts, maybe. But the NHL also gave him a slap on he wrist, which send sthe wrong message entirely.

But of course calling Moores neck broken is as honest as saying someone who gets a chipped touch has a broken jaw.

Moore had three broken vertebrae in his neck and a concussion.

At least Bert took responsibility, apologized and took the penalty.

He never took responsibility. In his "apology" he said he was sorry "for what happened out there" (not "what I did") and claimed that he didn't intent to hurt Moore (I guess by punching Moore from behind and pile-driving him into the ice was bert's way of saying hello?). In other words: he's a big faker.

Svend blamed stress and a hard life. Poor spend had to do it, he had a metal illness and now he must be all cured. Come on, should he really be back in politics one year latter. I really don't like Hedi but Svend is not going to restore trust back in politics.
To come back to the comparison; I never expected to trust a hockey player. If his association says he can play, then he can play. Sports heroes are just images, and should not be placed up for morale comparison.

Politicians on the other hand are running for public service and should be held to a higher standard.

Bullshit. How many people do you see wearing Svend Robinson jerseys? How many kids idolize politicians? Sports figures, especially high-profile ones like Bertuzzi, are role models in ways politicans can only dream of.

BD, you don't strike me as a sports fan. Are you really or do you just like high horses?

That's the second strawman argument I've seen. A lot of Canucks fans around here, apparently.

I played hockey as a kid, and I know plenty about the sport and it's fans. The most asinine things I've read in this thread are all displays of defensiveness about how hockey violence is all part of the game. It's not. Football is a very tough physical sport, but you don't see nearly the same level of violence in football, because it's not tolerated, and it wouldn ruin the game

Word, BHS.

Black Dog · December 23, 2005

He punched him with a gloved fist to the side of the head with hardly any windup. I said before it didn't rate in the top 25 worst incidents in hockey, I was being generous the fact is it doesn't even rate in the top 250. Want to see a vicious sucker punch? Check out some of Domi's work. What I don't get is why Bert got singled out more then others, if I had to guess it was because he has a history of being short with the media and they decided it was payback time.

He stalked Moore, followed him up the ice, and then punched him hard enough to knock him unconcious, then jumped on his back (Moore is 6' 1" and 210lbs; Bertuzzi 6'3" and 245) and drove him into the ice head first. It was calculated, it was cheap and it was viciously executed; that's what makes it one of the worst ever.

Moronic, people are struck far harder then Bertuzzi struck him without incident. It was a freak blow that knocked him out. There is no way any reasonable person could have concluded that gloved punch with little to no windup would have knocked him out, and it is a virtual impossibility that it did the damage regardless.

We all saw the footage a million times. When Moore drops, he makes almost no effort to catch himself, or cushion his fall. The lack of the instinctive act of putting one's arms out in front would indicate the blow was a k.o.

No the Olympics have nothing to do with sportsmanship. I do find it amusing that you think they do, and yes I am world class at something and I know what kind of competitive behavior occurs at that level.

You are certainly a world class bullshitter. You can't prove it, so why say it? (In debates, this kind of thing is known as a "plea to authority" and it's completely fallacious).

Sportsmanship is great for 10 year olds, but you will never reach the highest levels of a competitive sport without doing whatever it demands of you to attain it

So why even have rules at all?

No he didn't just have the class not to disparage him, he SIDED with him, and he stated shortly after the incident that it wasn't Bertuzzi's fault and that Moore was handling it poorly. The same with virtually every "classy" player in the league. But like I said if you want to believe that about hockey in general that’s fine, but singling out Bertuzzi for special punishment is not reasonable.

Proof? here's the only coments I could find by Sackic:

First, after the incident:

"It really puts a damper on the whole game," said Colorado captain Joe Sakic, who had a goal and three assists. "There's rivalries, but rivalries don't include that stuff. We have two excellent hockey teams and tonight was our night, but it ended up like that and obviously nobody feels good about that."

and after Bertuzzi's re-instatement:

"The Vancouver thing, you guys are blowing it out of proportion," Sakic said. "Everything is in the past. We're moving on. We just want to win games."

BHS · December 23, 2005

I doubt he was talking about french from france to 4 quebec referee in a game in montreal.

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I have no idea what that means. Since when are French Canadians a different race from French from France? The correct word is still bigotry. Unless you're using "race" in the slightly archaic poetic sense used in the theme song for American Dad.

BHS · December 23, 2005

You have no idea what you are talking about. Football is far far more violent then hockey. There may be less fights but players attempt to injury each other every single play; it is a code that is understood in football.

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Going for the knees, for example, is legal in football. The refs are all over plays that are against the rules, from holding on up. So the only thing you can be referring to is the stuff that happens in a pile that no one can see. And frankly, I don't consider a little bit of sneaked-in cleat raking to be in the same league as the bench clearing brawls that happen in many hockey games, and the game-delaying shirt-pulling bullshit that happens in every game, because fans like you demand it and defend it. Again I'll say it: because of this crap, hockey is little better roller derby with sticks.

Bakunin · December 23, 2005

I doubt he was talking about french from france to 4 quebec referee in a game in montreal.

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I have no idea what that means. Since when are French Canadians a different race from French from France? The correct word is still bigotry. Unless you're using "race" in the slightly archaic poetic sense used in the theme song for American Dad.

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Actually i don't like the word race, it sound like if we where talking about dogs. Its the first time i hear this word "bigotry" i can't find the translation in french but the definition looks fine to me.

Shane doan is a bigotry and still doesn't deserve to be in the team

shoop · December 23, 2005

Bakunin, most people deny the allegations involved. This isn`t the case with the Saguneens in Quebec.

Are you just bitter because there weren`t many qualified Quebeckers on the team? And the selection committe used ability instead of province of origin as a determining factor in making their choice? :lol:

ps. Doan is a Christian and *vehemently* denies making the comment.

''This allegation is completely false,'' Montreal lawyer Claude Laporte wrote. ''As you are well aware, an investigation was held by the NHL and Mr. Doan was totally exonerated. Our client's behaviour has been that of a model Christian throughout Canada and the United States and he is an outstanding moral professional athlete.
Related Info

MP: Doan should not represent Canada

''Profane language, racist comments or anything of that nature is completely contrary to his widely acknowledged beliefs. Our client considers your allegations to be defamatory.

pps. "bigotry" est une adverbe, pas une adjectif. Donc votre usage a ete mauvais.

Shane doan is a bigotry and still doesn't deserve to be in the team

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I Miss Trudeau · December 23, 2005

You have no idea what you are talking about. Football is far far more violent then hockey. There may be less fights but players attempt to injury each other every single play; it is a code that is understood in football.

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Not exactly. Its understood in Football that the opposing team is going to hit you as hard as possible, within the rules, every chance that they get, and often with the intent of injuring you. Attempts to injure opponents that are outside the scope of the rules are not tolerated in football. You actually see players thrown out of footbll games for actions that would result in a minor penalty or less in hockey.

I wouldn't call what occurs in football violence, simply because everyone knows the rules of the game and that the rules are enforced strictly. Every receiver knows before they step on the field that if their QB hangs them out, they're going to get hit very very hard and they may not walk off the field, or ever again. They consent to that.

Moore never consented to being viciously mugged by a nutcase when he stepped on the ice that night. If Bertuzzi had broken Moore's neck with a vicious, but clean, open ice hit, that wouldn't be a problem in my mind.

Biblio Bibuli · December 23, 2005

In the 50's, Canadian hockey players were SO powerful that the Czechs, in honor of the magnitude of Canadian hockey superstars, renamed their hockey skates "Canadas". I got my first "Canadas" when I was ten. Czechs still call them "Canadas".

Now that the tide has turned ... will Canadians reciprocate?

The Honest Politician · December 23, 2005

You have no idea what you are talking about. Football is far far more violent then hockey. There may be less fights but players attempt to injury each other every single play; it is a code that is understood in football.

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Going for the knees, for example, is legal in football. The refs are all over plays that are against the rules, from holding on up. So the only thing you can be referring to is the stuff that happens in a pile that no one can see. And frankly, I don't consider a little bit of sneaked-in cleat raking to be in the same league as the bench clearing brawls that happen in many hockey games, and the game-delaying shirt-pulling bullshit that happens in every game, because fans like you demand it and defend it. Again I'll say it: because of this crap, hockey is little better roller derby with sticks.

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Please find and post FIVE bench clearing brawls in the last 5 NHL seasons. I doubt you will be able to find five instances where a single player came off the bench to fight let alone a whole team.

There are way more bench clearing brawls in baseball.