Decriminalization vs. Criminalization

[err]

SPERM COUNT AND SPERM MOTILITY: As pointed out in your link, the effect on sperm count and motility is fully reversible within 30 days.  Therefore, a man seeking to impregnate his partner would be wise not to use the drug.

I suppose the merits of the converse of this argument should be discussed. If marijuana reduces your inhibitions and increases your desire to have sex, while at the same time, reduces the likelihood of impregnation... wow... a win-win situation...

[Canuck E Stan]

Normie,

You said it was LESS harmful than alcohol,it is not.

[justcrowing]

well - some may end up with more than a headache ... here are a few links for your reading enjoyment.

http://www.doitnow.org/pages/126.html

http://www.health.org/govpubs/phd641/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4244489.stm

Marijuana has a long-term effect on blood flow to the brain, potentially increasing the risk of memory damage and stroke, research finds.

and - http://www.well.com/user/woa/fspot.htm

[err]

well - some may end up with more than a headache ... here are a few links for your reading enjoyment.

Did you forget the video "REEFER MADNESS"... scary stuff..... and it's all true, because the government of the United States made this video and they NEVER lie...

PS. Look around you, and you'll see tons of evidence in your community, maybe even your own house, of the kinds of problems that alcohol brings with it.... Or perhaps you might want to go to your local "battered womens shelter" and ask if the abusive husbands have a bigger problem with alcohol or with pot....

You'll have trouble finding evidence of problems due to marijuana...

[justcrowing]

well - some may end up with more than a headache ... here are a few links for your reading enjoyment.

Did you forget the video "REEFER MADNESS"... scary stuff..... and it's all true, because the government of the United States made this video and they NEVER lie...

PS. Look around you, and you'll see tons of evidence in your community, maybe even your own house, of the kinds of problems that alcohol brings with it.... Or perhaps you might want to go to your local "battered womens shelter" and ask if the abusive husbands have a bigger problem with alcohol or with pot....

You'll have trouble finding evidence of problems due to marijuana...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do look around me and what I see is not pretty. A friend was beaten & left for dead by her drug addicted husband; my spouse & I were assaulted in broad daylight in an attempted robbery by a drug user; I see homeless children roaming the streets and most of them are high on drugs; Now maybe these drug users were using hard drugs but I betcha they started out with pot and moved on to stronger stuff. It is obvious you did not read the links provided for you - it's all there but if you want to smoke it and those are your values, be my guest but I do not want my kids nor any of my grandkids told that it is okay because it is not and those are my values. Everyone once thought cigarette smoking was okay but now it isn't so all the smokers are now crying foul - well I ask you, who willingly put that cigarette in that person's mouth?

Sparhawk was correct in her comments that legalization will not take the profit out of it.

[cybercoma]

I do look around me and what I see is not pretty.  A friend was beaten & left for dead  by her drug addicted husband;

Blame the drug, not the attacker.

my spouse & I were assaulted in broad daylight in an attempted robbery by a drug user;

Must be the drugs, not the moral convictions of the attacker.

I see homeless children roaming the streets and most of them are high on drugs;

They must be homeless because they're on drugs....or are they on drugs because they're homeless? Look into and get back to me.

  Now maybe these drug users were using hard drugs but I betcha they started out with pot and moved on to stronger stuff.

I'm willing to bet you anything they started smoking and drinking before they moved onto anything else.....just a hunch.

It is obvious you did not read the links provided for you - it's all there

Nope I didn't because your post speaks for itself, without having to read the propaganda you dug up to support your position.

if you want to smoke it and those are your values, be my guest but I do not want my kids nor any of my  grandkids  told that it is okay because it is not and those are my values.

Teach your kids and grandkids your values, once they're adults they'll make their own decisions. No one is going around forcing children to smoke pot, nor do I think it would be a very responsible thing to do. We don't go around telling kids to smoke and drink either....how is weed any different?

Everyone once thought cigarette smoking was okay but now it isn't so all the smokers are now crying foul - well I ask you, who willingly put that cigarette in that person's mouth? 

Smoking marijuana is a personal choice, something adults should be allowed to do...y'know, make choices. As a responsible adult, should I not be allowed to do whatever I choose to my body?

Sparhawk was correct in her comments that legalization will not take the profit out of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Legalization will take the organized crime element out of it. Instead of forcing people who want to smoke a harmless drug (in so much as you can't overdose from it) into the underground to deal with criminals, make it available in a safe atmosphere. Right now if you want to safely smoke weed, you have to grow your own...or have a friend that does and that's VERY illegal. So, the laws right now are setup so that the casual smoker has to go to organized crime to get it.

Look this isn't anything unlike the prohibition era, with the "gangsters" and their tommy guns mowing people down in Chicago, Detroit and New York.

Legalization would make it safe for responsible adults with a free choice able to safely get their drugs. As it stands, we're creating a dangerous environment by making it illegal.

[Riverwind]

Legalization will take the organized crime element out of it.  Instead of forcing people who want to smoke a harmless drug (in so much as you can't overdose from it) into the underground to deal with criminals, make it available in a safe atmosphere.

Please explain how legalizing Marijuana in Canada will stop the illegal drug trade with the US? The gangs will still be there and they will under cut any effort the gov't puts in place to control consumption like it does with alcohol.

Canada cannot legalize Marijuana until the US does.

[cybercoma]

Legalization will take the organized crime element out of it.  Instead of forcing people who want to smoke a harmless drug (in so much as you can't overdose from it) into the underground to deal with criminals, make it available in a safe atmosphere.

Please explain how legalizing Marijuana in Canada will stop the illegal drug trade with the US? The gangs will still be there and they will under cut any effort the gov't puts in place to control consumption like it does with alcohol.

Canada cannot legalize Marijuana until the US does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nitpicking.

I think the average joe who smokes pot would rather get safe quality product from a safe retailer than deal with criminals.

Convenience goes further than price in most cases. And it's horribly inconvenient to deal with someone packing heat.

[justcrowing]

I do look around me and what I see is not pretty.  A friend was beaten & left for dead  by her drug addicted husband;

Blame the drug, not the attacker.

my spouse & I were assaulted in broad daylight in an attempted robbery by a drug user;

Must be the drugs, not the moral convictions of the attacker.

cop out reply. The attacker willingly took the drug.

I see homeless children roaming the streets and most of them are high on drugs;

They must be homeless because they're on drugs....or are they on drugs because they're homeless? Look into and get back to me.

Be my guest - you look into it yourself.

  Now maybe these drug users were using hard drugs but I betcha they started out with pot and moved on to stronger stuff.

I'm willing to bet you anything they started smoking and drinking before they moved onto anything else.....just a hunch.

Could be so what makes you think that pot smokers won't move on to something more potent?

It is obvious you did not read the links provided for you - it's all there

Nope I didn't because your post speaks for itself, without having to read the propaganda you dug up to support your position.

Poor excuse - you just don't want to read anything contrary to what you believe in.

if you want to smoke it and those are your values, be my guest but I do not want my kids nor any of my  grandkids  told that it is okay because it is not and those are my values.

Teach your kids and grandkids your values, once they're adults they'll make their own decisions. No one is going around forcing children to smoke pot, nor do I think it would be a very responsible thing to do. We don't go around telling kids to smoke and drink either....how is weed any different?

My kids have good values and do not need pot to relax them or whatever the heck it does to those who use it. One does not have to force kids to smoke pot, legalize it and they will smoke it same as cigarettes. Sure they smoke it now, we have adults to blame for that.

Everyone once thought cigarette smoking was okay but now it isn't so all the smokers are now crying foul - well I ask you, who willingly put that cigarette in that person's mouth? 

Smoking marijuana is a personal choice, something adults should be allowed to do...y'know, make choices. As a responsible adult, should I not be allowed to do whatever I choose to my body?

Good so smoke it but don't ask the taxpayers to pay for your health care or sue the companies that grow the stuff because it did damage to you. Take responsibility with your choice.

Sparhawk was correct in her comments that legalization will not take the profit out of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Legalization will take the organized crime element out of it. Instead of forcing people who want to smoke a harmless drug (in so much as you can't overdose from it) into the underground to deal with criminals, make it available in a safe atmosphere. Right now if you want to safely smoke weed, you have to grow your own...or have a friend that does and that's VERY illegal. So, the laws right now are setup so that the casual smoker has to go to organized crime to get it.

Look this isn't anything unlike the prohibition era, with the "gangsters" and their tommy guns mowing people down in Chicago, Detroit and New York.

Legalization would make it safe for responsible adults with a free choice able to safely get their drugs. As it stands, we're creating a dangerous environment by making it illegal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately all adults are not responsible. Why should I support your habit? Oh and if you think there isn't any drug wars with killings going on, think again. Helloooo!!

[normanchateau]

You said it was LESS harmful than alcohol,it is not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your statement suggests that your source of information is Stephen Harper, a well-informed scientist and medical authority.

[BubberMiley]

This argument is going in circles. It seems that the CPCers will never listen to reason on this issue. What it comes down to is they want the right to criminalize anything that conflicts with what they perceive as a "traditional value", even if it involves something completely victimless. (And even if it could potentially improve the existing situation.) This is why, as a former PCer, I could never support the existing party.

[normanchateau]

well - some may end up with more than a headache ... here are a few links for your reading enjoyment.

http://www.doitnow.org/pages/126.html

http://www.health.org/govpubs/phd641/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4244489.stm

Marijuana has a long-term effect on blood flow to the brain, potentially increasing the risk of memory damage and stroke, research finds.

and - http://www.well.com/user/woa/fspot.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing here to suggest marijuana is MORE harmful than alcohol. No one is claiming that marijuana has no effects. The point is that a more harmful substance remains legal while possession of a less harmful substance results in a permanent criminal record and potential jail sentence. This is irrational but it's Stephen Harper's position.

[normanchateau]

Canada cannot legalize Marijuana until the US does.

You might want to look at the history of alcohol prohibition. Early in the 20th century, alcohol was illegal in both Canada and the US. In the 1920's, Canada legalized alcohol. In the 1930's, the US did.

Canada has long been ahead of the US in acquiring wisdom. If Canada legalizes or decriminalizes marijuana, the US will likely do so a decade later.

[BubberMiley]

They might want to look at how consumption of alcohol increased dramatically under prohibition and has steadily declined since. No, wait, they wouldn't want to look at that, because they don't care for actual facts. Just bizarre arguments, like some drug addicts have done bad things therefore the status quo must be maintained (because it's working so well).

[normanchateau]

They might want to look at how consumption of alcohol increased dramatically under prohibition and has steadily declined since. No, wait, they wouldn't want to look at that, because they don't care for actual facts.

Who cares about facts when you know that your traditional beliefs are far more important?

[Black Dog]

Argus: you're out of your element.

Okay, so you're saying we should legalize child pornography then, right? .

Noooooo. The existence of a black market in prohibited substances or products is not an argument for repealling those prohibitions. But then, child porn and pot are illegal for very different reasons, one's that shouldn't have to be spelled out for you.

Unlike child porn, there is no exploitive aspect to pot use. Kiddy porn, involving as it does underage participants who are not deemed to be able to make their own decisions, is inherently exploitive. Hence society's dissapproval.

There are more than a few indications that long-term pot use damages both the brain and lungs. And I don't believe alcohol kills brain cells when consumed in moderation.

Myth. None of the medical tests currently used to detect brain damage in humans have found harm from marijuana, nor is there any convincing evidence that heavy long-term marijuana use permanently impairs memory or other cognitive functions.

. In any event, pointing to an occasional success who was also a drug addict does nothing to sustain an argument in the benefits of regularly getting stoned or drunk.

Because that's the wrong tack to take. If someone wants to get stoned or drunk, it's none of your damn business. I don't recall you being appointed arbiter of what constitutes acceptable recreational activities.

Take bondage and sadomasochism. That's all banned even if it has no victims, even if it's actors and actresses or willing participants. It's banned because society dissaproves of it.

Uh...i don't think BDSM activities are banned.

It is banned because society doesn't like it, not because it causes harm.

Circular logic (pot is bad because society doesn't like it, society doesn't like it because it's bad).

Society has already given us the go-ahead to get as fucked up as we want on anything from booze to Xanax: so its clearly not the act of getting high or altering one's conciousness that's society has the problem with: just the means. So what's so special about pot?

Good arguement.....let's decriminalize/legalize Crystal Meth.

When you consider that most people addicted to drugs like meth or heroin commit crimes as a means of sustaining their habit, then legalization isn't such a bad idea. Treating drug addiction as a criminal matter, rather than a public health issue, has been a miserable failure.

Unfortunately all adults are not responsible. Why should I support your habit? Oh and if you think there isn't any drug wars with killings going on, think again. Helloooo!!

The illegal drug trade is a byproduct of prohibition laws, not the drugs themeselves. During the '30s there ws a thriving and violent underground trade in booze. After prohibition was repealed, the street trade dried up. Today, you don't see liquor store owners waging turf wars and murdering each other in the street.

Actually, that is the biggest side effect of Marijuana: the THC collects in the nerve receptors in the brain and is flushed out extremely slowly.

Nope. THC stays in the fat, but it only acts on the brain for a relatively short period. Unless your brain is full of fat?

If you need a drug to escape reality - try alcohol. Works quite well and the taxes pay for healthcare instead of lining the pocket of some drug lord.

It also works great for killing people (alchol is a factor in more than 30 per cent of fatal car crashes involve alcohol, 54 per cent of all assaults, murders and attempted murders and 40 per cent of all child abuse cases).

[Argus]

I'm not going to pursue this argument, other than to say that anyone who can't recognize that child porn is harmful (and yet finds himself morally superior to everyone else) is a total freak.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ha! Why don't you just admit that you find it morally offensive? That's the gist of why the child porn law is so broad. And that's the gist of why pot is banned. So either you're in favour of banning things which are morally offensive, even if "ban's don't work" or you're not. Which is it? Just smoke some more dope and get your brain working.

[Argus]

It's the old "Accuse them of supporting child porn" if you're losing an argument strategy... It's commonly used by Harper and other CPC supporters.

I never accused him of suporting porn. I asked him to explain his position that you can't ban things because that only creates a black market by using child porn as a comparison.

But... you know that. You're simply looking for cheap shots.

Because that's basically all you got.

[Argus]

? There are all kinds of suggestions and allusions as to the harm done by pot, as there are about the harm done by child porn, but there.

Argus, I suspect that you are using this argument to make a point rather than because you actually believe it. That said: kiddy porn causes harm because the children used as models are never volunteers - they are always being raped often by someone they trust.

Sparhawk, do you even have a clue what child porn consists of under Canadian law? If I make up a story with fictitious characters who are under 18 and having wild sex that's child porn. If I paint a picture from my imagination of people under 18 having sex that's child porn. If two 20 yo actresses dressed up as schoolgirls have sex on camera that's child porn. If two real teenagers have sex in front of a webcam voluntarily that's child porn. Tracy Lords posed for Penthouse when she was 15 (with false ID), and subsequently made many porn videos. All of that is child porn and in no case was rape involved.

[Argus]

Uhmm, explain it to me. If you ban something, you are making it illegal. If it's not illegal, it's not banned.

I'm glad they banned murder. I can rest easy it will never happen again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you DON'T know of a difference. Interesting.

[The Honest Politician]

How does someone smoking pot offend your morals?

[Argus]

There's nothing quite so wearisome as two barely literate,

In retrospect, I've been accused of far greater personal flaws than being "barely literate". Notwithstanding those flaws, this is a novel accusation. Given that my accuser resorts to morality-driven rather than evidence-based arguments to support his and Harper's position that permanent criminal records and potential jail sentences are appropriate for simple possession of less than 30 grams of marijuana, I'm curious as to whether his accusations against me are based on fantasy or evidence. I look forward to my accuser posting the evidence. :angry:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the sputtering, confused drivel you post daily is more than sufficient evidence, along with your inability to understand fairly basic concepts and explanations.

[BubberMiley]

Child porn is by definition harmful, even if it involves fictitious characters because it promotes the sexualization of children. Wait a minute. This is a ridicuous argument that doesn't even warrant refuting.

BTW Argus, chill out and take a xanax. Just because we disagree, we're not. like, your enemies.

[BubberMiley]

Uhmm, explain it to me. If you ban something, you are making it illegal. If it's not illegal, it's not banned.

I'm glad they banned murder. I can rest easy it will never happen again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you DON'T know of a difference. Interesting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If something has been banned, that means it's gone, eradicated, no longer among us. If something is illegal, that means it's frowned upon and there are negative consequences for it.

And you call other people morons.

[FTA Lawyer]

Child porn is by definition harmful, even if it involves fictitious characters because it promotes the sexualization of children. Wait a minute. This is a ridicuous argument that doesn't even warrant refuting.

BTW Argus, chill out and take a xanax. Just because we disagree, we're not. like, your enemies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anyone wanting to discuss child porn and its effects should really read the Supreme Court of Canada decision in R. v. Sharpe...it is a very well written analysis of the purpose behind the current Canadian law as well as the Charter exceptions that were carved out of the original legislation to ensure that it's coverage was not too broad.

Here's the official link for searching SCC judgments:

Supreme Court of Canada Judgment Search

FTA