Lost in Manitoba Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Look at other enduring conflicts to find a parallel: Ireland. It used to be played out as a religious conflict when really it is more like a imperialism vs. sovereignty issue, or even a class struggle (not trying to sound like Marx). Freedom and self-determination is the name of the game. All of N.America has gone through this. And Craig, sure you must respect the Jews as the most enduring and influential cultural force in history (good read is 'Gift of the Jews' by Thomas Cahill) but you can equally respect the people of the Arab world. Life is so hard but the culture is rich and I think the majority of people kind. (I know its set in Afganistan, but I watched the movie Kandahar the other night and it really did move me, the poverty and despair, and yet the searching hope) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Read Posted August 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Well i do not subscribe to the idea that Islam is great cultural entity full of richness and diversity. Islam is a monolithic narrow concept that forces people in 2003 AD to live as if it was 2003 BC. Islam needs to join the real world and get busy with modernisation. Harkening back to the Crusades as the 'root cause' of Islamic hatred of the West is nonsense. I don't think the 19 upper middle class hijackers were invoking Saladan as they crashed their planes on 9-11-01. Any idiot can invoke historical circumstance to cover up evil, maliciousness and racism. Islam is an anti-Western, anti-modern and anti-thinking philosophy. This is why it has failed. And why it will be crushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaken Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 you are ignoring that fact that islam could be the right religion who says that GOD dosent want us to live its its 2003BC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Islam is an anti-Western, anti-modern and anti-thinking philosophy.This is why it has failed. And why it will be crushed. I'm speechless here. What arrogance! What ignorance! Here we see the bin Laden's bedfellow, fueling the fires of hate that the radical Islamists use to push their twisted version of the Prophet's words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderate Centrist Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Hi Nuclear, "Although his Resurrection is a matter of faith, if I am correct, his cruicfiction is a historical(secular) fact. Point me out if I'm mistaken on that." As far as I am aware the only secular reference to Christ comes from the Annals of Imperial Rome written by Tacitus circa early 100s AD. The following is the quote from the Annals. Tacitus is speaking about Nero trying to divert the blame for the fire in Rome: "Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius:..." Source: http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_TC.html For More Information on the Annals please refer to: http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Suetonius refers to Christ as well in "The Twelve Caesars" by the Latinised name "Chrestus." He mentions that Roman Jews were rebellious in the reign of Claudius and alleges that their rebellion was instigated by Christ. Suetonius was not a contemporary of Christ but was born in 69 AD, and the crucifixion would still have been first-hand to some people at that time. Claudius was preceded by Gaius (Caligula) who was preceded by Tiberius, in whose reign Christ was crucified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Furthermore to the subject: As I've said previously, Islam has always had two paths: an enlightened and philosophical one and a warlike one. The latter is dominating right now, but as I said, you can see more enlightened Islam in the works of Mohammed Abduh, Sayyid Ahmad Khan or Mohammed Iqbal. All of these Muslim theologians argued for a more tolerant and peaceful Islam that was more open to Western ideas. I believe they even advocated the "Westernisation of Islam" in those terms, meaning that Islam should move away from rigorous adherence to medieval practice and towards a more enlightened and tolerant religious practice as post-Renaissance Christianity had done. Islam is actually a very diverse and subtle religion with many interesting and divergent sects. I mentioned the Sufi as an example in addition to the mainstream Shi'i and Sunni. As I also said, Islamic theology and philosophy is also very complex and there are a great many long-running debates, for instance, the great Islamic dispute over pre-determinism. It's a shame that all of this has been overshadowed by fanatics shooting kalashnikovs at clouds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaken Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 again whats to say, for certain, that islam is not the right religion, and that by being christain (or aggnostic in my case) we are all going to islamic hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Islam is actually a very diverse and subtle religion with many interesting and divergent sects. I mentioned the Sufi as an example in addition to the mainstream Shi'i and Sunni. As I also said, Islamic theology and philosophy is also very complex and there are a great many long-running debates, for instance, the great Islamic dispute over pre-determinism. Hugo, thanks for the even-handed, educated post. It's a nice contrast to some of the narrow-minded idiocy on display elsewhere on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 whats to say, for certain, that islam is not the right religion, and that by being christain (or aggnostic in my case) we are all going to islamic hell? It does not matter. Whichever faith brings you closest to God is the one you must follow. They're all simply paths to the same goal. Some are dead-ends, some are longer than others and some are simply impassable for some people, but that is something every individual must work out for himself. That's why we are made as thinking entities. Here's an analogy. Most people work for money, and for those who want careers, the plan is usually to get lots of money, to get rich. Stephen King and J.K. Rowling got rich writing fiction, while Bill Gates and Henry Ford got rich through a combination of technical knowledge and business acumen. Bruce Willis and Tom Hanks got their wealth through acting. Michael Jordan got rich playing basketball. Michael Jackson got rich writing songs and performing them. All of these people attained their dreams of wealth, but they all picked a different path. Had they attempted to do other things they probably would not have been nearly as successful. I'm sure Stephen King is a lousy computer programmer, and Michael Jackson would probably write really nauseating and dire fiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastNed Posted August 28, 2003 Report Share Posted August 28, 2003 Pellekan, you questioned: you are ignoring that fact that islam could be the right religionwho says that GOD dosent want us to live its its 2003BC The answer is simple for a person of faith who believes that "We are made in His image". Our intelligence comes from Him and had He not wished that we advance in our knowledge of His creation, we would not be able to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Read Posted August 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Black dog as usual is bleating his lie-beral tripe. Islam is not some nuanced, difficult to comprehend and superior form of social organisation or some mystical force that is relatively equal. It is an utter abysmal failure. B. Lewis and other scholars including Feldman's new book 'After Jihad', make the crucial point that modern Islam has fused National socialist ideology with religious narrow mindedness. This is why in part, it has failed in the current era. Looking back beyond the Fascist influence to the early modern period, the despotic, anti-modern, anti-democratic urge in the religion is everywhere apparent. A lack of curiousity, a lack of interest in worldly affairs, an arrogance that they are the chosen ones, a sad indifference to political representation, a mindset that brutalises women and the weak, and a racism that is used to quell societal discord and direct anger towards the heathen. All of these limitations and immoral attributes of Islam were well in the ascendant even during the times of the Crusades. Islam has shown no interest in living in today's world. None. And this is why it must be reformed or confronted and defeated. Its demise as a viable social option is clear. The only question is - does it want to reform itself ? Iraq is clearly a critical test of this question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Read Posted September 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Black dog as usual is bleating his lie-beral tripe. Islam is not some nuanced, difficult to comprehend and superior form of social organisation or some mystical force that is relatively equal. It is an utter abysmal failure. B. Lewis and other scholars including Feldman's new book 'After Jihad', make the crucial point that modern Islam has fused National socialist ideology with religious narrow mindedness. This is why in part, it has failed in the current era. Looking back beyond the Fascist influence to the early modern period, the despotic, anti-modern, anti-democratic urge in the religion is everywhere apparent. A lack of curiousity, a lack of interest in worldly affairs, an arrogance that they are the chosen ones, a sad indifference to political representation, a mindset that brutalises women and the weak, and a racism that is used to quell societal discord and direct anger towards the heathen. All of these limitations and immoral attributes of Islam were well in the ascendant even during the times of the Crusades. Islam has shown no interest in living in today's world. None. And this is why it must be reformed or confronted and defeated. Its demise as a viable social option is clear. The only question is - does it want to reform itself ? Iraq is clearly a critical test of this question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 A lack of curiousity, a lack of interest in worldly affairs, an arrogance that they are the chosen ones, a sad indifference to political representation, a mindset that brutalises women and the weak, and a racism that is used to quell societal discord and direct anger towards the heathen. But enough about the Republican party.... Islam has shown no interest in living in today's world. None. And this is why it must be reformed or confronted and defeated. Yes, because those backwards, dusky people must be shown the light of the Golden Arches! it is time to again pick up the White Man's Burden and take it to all the corners of the globe where Christianity (and consumer capitalism) will show the benighted hordes the error of their ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naked Liberal Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 and christianity is just plain stupid. some guy comes and says "I'm the son of god" does a few magic tricks, and poof, 2 billion followers.its not how feasable or good any religion is. the followers of a religion beleive it is the right religion, and thats about it. and if anoyne thinks my shot at christianty "crossed the line" I dare you to prove that Craig's shot at Islam did not. and if anoyne thinks my shot at christianty "crossed the line" I dare you to prove that Craig's shot at Islam did not. BUT CRAIG DIDN'T SLAM THE BELIEF SYSTEM, JUST THE ECONOMIC ATTRIBUTES OF THE RELIGION. BIG DIFFERENCE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naked Liberal Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Exactly right Black Dog. Extremism is the problem. Christianity is as blood soaked as any other religion if not more so. . Extremism is the problem. Christianity is as blood soaked as any other religion if not more so. YOU MIGHT WANT TO DO SOME SERIOUS HISTORICAL RESEARCH AND CHECK OTTOMAN EMPIRE. ONE OF THE BLOODIEST EMPIRES TO EVER EXIST AND IT ONLY ENDED IN THE EARLY 1900S BUT WHEN REFERENCING "CHRISTIAN" YOU'D BE MORE ACCURATE IF YOU POINTED TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. THEY ARE THE ONES THAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE SPANISH INQUISITION WHICH MURDERED PEOPLE OF ANY FAITH THAT WASN'T CATHOLIC. THE JEWS HAD TO CONVERT OR DIE. THE CONVERTED BECAME CONVERSOS. MANY SUCH CONVERSO SAILED ON CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS'S SHIPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naked Liberal Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 . may I remind you that in the year 1200 we had our own Jihad against the muslims. we called it the crusaded. the whole point was to kill as many muslims as possible. YOU ARE CORRECT IN POINTING OUT THE CRUSADES, BUT YOU FORGET TO MENTION THAT THE CRUSADES OCCURRED BECAUSE OF THE JIHAD IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE. IT WAS THE GOAL OF THE MUSLIMS TO CONQUOR THE WORLD IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT, BUT AT LEAST KNOW THAT BOTH WRONGS EXISTED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naked Liberal Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 The Theory of Evolution is almost universally recognized as the best theory to date on human/biological development and is also widely recognized by the scientific communityntext of science. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE ISN'T A SINGLE THEORY BUT MANY. SO WHICH ONE DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naked Liberal Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 "Although his Resurrection is a matter of faith, if I am correct, his cruicfiction is a historical(secular) fact. Point me out if I'm mistaken on that." As far as I am aware the only secular reference to Christ comes from the Annals of Imperial Rome written by Tacitus circa early 100s AD. /annals.html[/url] You seem to have forgotten Josephus, the historian of the day. He gives a couple quips about Jesus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 YOU ARE CORRECT IN POINTING OUT THE CRUSADES, BUT YOU FORGET TO MENTION THAT THE CRUSADES OCCURRED BECAUSE OF THE JIHAD IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE. IT The First Crusade occurred during the 9th century, a thousand or so years before the Ottoman Empire was born. The last Crusade (the seventh) was undertaken by Louis IX of France in 1244. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE ISN'T A SINGLE THEORY BUT MANY. SO WHICH ONE DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO? Evolution is a fact. There is some debate over the mechanisms of evolution, but the fundamental truth of evolution is undeniable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 The First Crusade occurred during the 9th century, a thousand or so years before the Ottoman Empire was born. Yes, and it took place to win back the Holy Land from the Arab conquests of Mohammed. Evolution is a fact. There is some debate over the mechanisms of evolution, but the fundamental truth of evolution is undeniable. Then why is it referred to as the "theory of evolution"? It's a fact that the Earth revolves around the Sun, so why isn't that called the Theory of Solarcentricity? I mean, the scientific community does not have all the answers and can't prove evolution, but lucky for us Black Dog, a layman, can! When's your Nobel award ceremony? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Read Posted September 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Yes the greatness of Islam. Let's see: -Women are treated like dogs -A plurality is illiterate -the Leaders live like drunken millionaire sailors -Int'l funds are used to buy weapons -Refugee camps are used as pretext's to brainwash -Killing citizens through state sponsored terror is common -Supporting anti-Western terrorist groups common -Nescient ignorant pronouncements against modernity and freedom promulgated weekly -Poverty is rife Other than that Islam has been a roaring success. Guess what ? For left-liberal Islamic apologists, put on a bedsheet fly to your Islam state of choice and join the fun !! Live what you preach. Sanctimonious hypocrites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaken Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Yes the greatness of Islam. Let's see: -Women are treated like dogs -A plurality is illiterate -the Leaders live like drunken millionaire sailors -Int'l funds are used to buy weapons -Refugee camps are used as pretext's to brainwash -Killing citizens through state sponsored terror is common -Supporting anti-Western terrorist groups common -Nescient ignorant pronouncements against modernity and freedom promulgated weekly -Poverty is rife Other than that Islam has been a roaring success. Guess what ? For left-liberal Islamic apologists, put on a bedsheet fly to your Islam state of choice and join the fun !! Live what you preach. Sanctimonious hypocrites. your forgetting, thats what god wants, because the quran is the word of god not the opinion of pellaken, but presented to try to open minds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrustyKidd Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 I always got a kick out of the Islamic guys. They clitorize the women then put them in a head to toe drop cloth so nobody can see them. LOL, like they are such primitive uncontrolable horney sex machines that the sight of a woman's ankle makes them forget God, society, family, country. So ..... civilized. And there are those out there who think that primitive impulsive monkeys like these have an answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova_satori Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 wow, that post is completely full of ignorance. it also shows, you have no understanding of anything Islamic. There ARE OTHER CULTURES OUT THERE BESIDES YOUR OWN. Intolerant fool. My god, do you believe that only your customs are correct? What is wrong with you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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