Martin goes on the attack.

[scribblet]

Yes, yes, of course I know that and if you go to the link I posted, it's obvious.

Perhaps next time I make an attempt at humour I will wear my moose horns so you'll know.

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Trust me, you've provided me with more chuckles than you know.

-k

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[normanchateau]

I guess that is the difference between us, Argus. I prefer evidence to what I would like to believe. Belief is always a problem when it is converted into partisanship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why many Canadians want to keep religion and politics separate. If only Harper would figure this out he'd be taken far more seriously as a candidate. But even Ralph Klein now discounts him.

[southerncomfort]

Yes, yes, of course I know that and if you go to the link I posted, it's obvious.

Perhaps next time I make an attempt at humour I will wear my moose horns so you'll know.

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Trust me, you've provided me with more chuckles than you know.

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would be funnier except this guy seems to believe everything he posts, good thing we all know better eh.

[Argus]

I guess that is the difference between us, Argus. I prefer evidence to what I would like to believe. Belief is always a problem when it is converted into partisanship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your pious claims that only rock solid evidence can be used to inform judgement rests on a foundation which consists of months of postings about Steven Harper's "hidden agenda" and his plan to destroy Canada, to destroy public health care, to give the country over to the US, to invite space aliens to control our minds... You've never had a shred of evidence to support any of it, but that hasn't stopped you.

[southerncomfort]

I guess that is the difference between us, Argus. I prefer evidence to what I would like to believe. Belief is always a problem when it is converted into partisanship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your pious claims that only rock solid evidence can be used to inform judgement rests on a foundation which consists of months of postings about Steven Harper's "hidden agenda" and his plan to destroy Canada, to destroy public health care, to give the country over to the US, to invite space aliens to control our minds... You've never had a shred of evidence to support any of it, but that hasn't stopped you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the lack of evidence to any of that hasn't stopped the smears, can't pin that stuff on him now, so what can the use. Hmmm Oh I know, if you don't support the liberals you don't love Canada. Ho Hum

[sharkman]

Yah, it's real funny how some people would rather convict Harper of what he hasn't done then convict the Liberals on their sorry record.

[normanchateau]

I guess that is the difference between us, Argus. I prefer evidence to what I would like to believe. Belief is always a problem when it is converted into partisanship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your pious claims that only rock solid evidence can be used to inform judgement rests on a foundation which consists of months of postings about Steven Harper's "hidden agenda" and his plan to destroy Canada, to destroy public health care, to give the country over to the US, to invite space aliens to control our minds... You've never had a shred of evidence to support any of it, but that hasn't stopped you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shame on you Eureka. Stephen Harper has no plan to invite space aliens to control our minds.

[Guest eureka]

First, Kimmy, I have never posted my belief in Mulroney's guilt of anything. I have posted the oft quoted truth that Mulroney's government also used the advertising agencies for political purposes - as has every government. More than these Liberals for Mulroney.

Then, you are doing nothing but an Argus in accusing without evidence. It really does not matter what you think of the few Liberals and Gomery did not implicate any beyond those few. At the worst, his findings amounted to an indictment of incompetent management.

Beyond that, there is no question of the roots of this and all the other initiatives to fight Quebec separatism. The roots are separatism that have caused the country immeasurable grief and disruption in its direction.

I have posted in other threads of my disagreement with the Sponsorship programme. My disagreement came from my belief that it would be ineffectual: as ineffectual as the massing of bodies in Montreal before the last referendum to sing about our love for Quebec. Quebec needs "tough love" not either of these approaches.

[Guest eureka]

Argus, thunder and lightning without rain are useless and will help nothing to grow or germinate. Just as your tirades are bereft of acuracy or ideas.

I have not accused Harper of a hidden agenda. I don't think anything is hidden. It is all there for those with eyes to see.

I have given Harper's past Written policy on healthcare and I have pointed to the collateral statements he is making now that all the "Conservatives" on this site shy away from. You think that "righteous" rage will hide the facts.

I have also said why I think his other pronouncements are intended to disguise his objectives, But those objectives are not hidden. They also can be seen if you focus your eyes on him.

Pronouncements such as his law and order ones and staTement that violent crime is increasing alarmingly when violent crime has been decreasing steadily for years.

I have written of his economic and financial policies and the effects they will have on the country. Tax and revenue policies that will render the federal government UNABLE to exercise its only real power and WO;; weaken national unity along with the healthcare; post secondary education; and a few other facets of our society.

I have written of the NAFTA provisions that will make inevitable deeper integration of Canada into the American economy.

All of these are the real issues facing Canada but You, along with the other "Conservatives" don't want to face them. You would rather BELIEVE this serpent in our midst.

[cybercoma]

Beyond that, there is no question of the roots of this and all the other initiatives to fight Quebec separatism. The roots are separatism that have caused the country immeasurable grief and disruption in its direction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She had it coming, it was her fault for dressing that way.

[cybercoma]

Pronouncements such as his law and order ones and staTement that violent crime is increasing alarmingly when violent crime has been decreasing steadily for years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Poking around, I found this tidbit of info...

In a December 2004 article on youth crime, the Toronto Sun reported the following: "While the number of all crime cases heard in Canadian youth court has dropped 20% over the last decade, violent crimes cases -- for homicide, sexual assault, assault and robbery -- have jumped 25% over the same period, reports Statistics Canada.

"Separate stats from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics (CCJS) show an increase of 13% in the youth violent crime rate between 1993-2003, with a significant jump in 2000 after a decade of relative stability."

I guess it doesn't really matter if overall violent crimes go down, if youth crimes are increasing. We're headed towards bad times if this is any indication of future adults.

[scribblet]

Pronouncements such as his law and order ones and staTement that violent crime is increasing alarmingly when violent crime has been decreasing steadily for years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Poking around, I found this tidbit of info...

In a December 2004 article on youth crime, the Toronto Sun reported the following: "While the number of all crime cases heard in Canadian youth court has dropped 20% over the last decade, violent crimes cases -- for homicide, sexual assault, assault and robbery -- have jumped 25% over the same period, reports Statistics Canada.

"Separate stats from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics (CCJS) show an increase of 13% in the youth violent crime rate between 1993-2003, with a significant jump in 2000 after a decade of relative stability."

I guess it doesn't really matter if overall violent crimes go down, if youth crimes are increasing. We're headed towards bad times if this is any indication of future adults.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is certainly increasing in Toronto, it has been a horrific year. Mayor Miller is too wishy washy, he's among those who seem to think that building more community centres is the answer. I'd like to know how many criminals handed in their guns during the amnesty.

[Argus]

I have not accused Harper of a hidden agenda. I don't think anything is hidden. It is all there for those with eyes to see.

Oh, well, please excuse me. Not all of us have the X-ray vision your superior genetics grants you. We can only go by what candidates say and do, not on our special insight into what motivates their personal quest for evil and destruction.

[shoop]

Yo eureka,

Explain the double-standard. If Martin changes his ideas, he has evaluated the facts and worked with changing Canadian public sentiment. However, when Harper changes his ideas he is really just 'hiding his agenda' and will go back to his original position when given the opportunity?

I have not accused Harper of a hidden agenda. I don't think anything is hidden. It is all there for those with eyes to see.

I have given Harper's past Written policy on healthcare and I have pointed to the collateral statements he is making now that all the "Conservatives" on this site shy away from. You think that "righteous" rage will hide the facts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest eureka]

Then hear what they say, Argus, not just the part you want to hear. Harper has made plain what he intends. He has said that income and corporate tax cuts will stay in place as well as the GST cuts. That can only come at the expense of reduced services.

He has also clearly said that there will be more private healthcare for those who can afford it. Unfortunately, those statements are just snippets to go with his "reformed" ideas.

Read beyond the headlines and see what he is saying.

[shoop]

They can come in place of money wasted on the Sponsorship scandal, HRDC boondogle, poorly planned procurements for the military.

Alas, in your warped little view the government waste has to instinctively continue. The accountability act means that it won't.

Then hear what they say, Argus, not just the part you want to hear. Harper has made plain what he intends. He has said that income and corporate tax cuts will stay in place as well as the GST cuts. That can only come at the expense of reduced services.

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[Montgomery Burns]

PocketRocket:

The first half is STILL just name-calling.

Huh? Calling a tired directionless scandal-plagued government--tired directionless and scandal-plagued is name-calling?

One could argue about the tired part, but they are directionless (huge spending on social programs one month, then later on they offer nearly $30 billion in taxcuts), and you can't possibly deny that they are a scandal-plagued govt.

[Argus]

Then hear what they say, Argus, not just the part you want to hear. Harper has made plain what he intends. He has said that income and corporate tax cuts will stay in place as well as the GST cuts. That can only come at the expense of reduced services.

He has also clearly said that there will be more private healthcare for those who can afford it. Unfortunately, those statements are just snippets to go with his "reformed" ideas.

Read beyond the headlines and see what he is saying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is always more for those who can afford it; more food, clothing, housing, and yes, health care. Always has been, always will be. Stop being jealous of your betters and look at the big picture. If private money puts more resources in the system and draws off a number of those on the public waiting lists then those lists get shorter for those who can't afford private care.

In theory anyway.

And what's so evil about giving more to those who can afford it? When did it become sacred to the left that just because someone works harder and saves their money they shouldn't be allowed to spend it on what they want? If I save money by taking the bus while my neighbour spends a fortune on his SUV, and we both get sick, but only I have cash now to spend, why is it his right to whine about my taking unfair advanrage because I have more money than him?

[normanchateau]

There is always more for those who can afford it; more food, clothing, housing, and yes, health care. Always has been, always will be. If private money puts more resources in the system and draws off a number of those on the public waiting lists then those lists get shorter for those who can't afford private care.

True but why does Harper want to put public money into the hands of private corporations? I stand to be corrected but didn't Harper say last week that if public wait list times are too long, those on the lists would be sent to private health care including private, corporate-run US hospitals? Those outrageously expensive US hospitals, run by US big busniess, would essentially be subsidized by the Canadian taxpayer.

[shoop]

Harper didn't say what you are claiming.

Here is a quote of what he *really* said. (See how providing support for your claims fosters debate.)

“There will be no private, parallel system,” Mr. Harper said. “We can, and will, achieve better results for patients and maintain the essentials of our system of public health insurance while maintaining our universal public health care system.”

Harper health care quote.

True but why does Harper want to put public money into the hands of private corporations?  I stand to be corrected but didn't Harper  say last week that if public wait list times are too long, those on the lists would be sent to private health care including private, corporate-run US hospitals?  Those outrageously expensive US hospitals, run by US big busniess, would essentially be subsidized by the Canadian taxpayer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PS. Still waiting for a link to your phantom poll ...

[tml12]

There is always more for those who can afford it; more food, clothing, housing, and yes, health care. Always has been, always will be. If private money puts more resources in the system and draws off a number of those on the public waiting lists then those lists get shorter for those who can't afford private care.

True but why does Harper want to put public money into the hands of private corporations? I stand to be corrected but didn't Harper say last week that if public wait list times are too long, those on the lists would be sent to private health care including private, corporate-run US hospitals? Those outrageously expensive US hospitals, run by US big busniess, would essentially be subsidized by the Canadian taxpayer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Healthcare was supposed to be fixed for a generation.

Still waiting for the results...

[normanchateau]

Harper didn't say what you are claiming.

Harper health care quote.

Thanks for the link. I went to it and clicked on Harper Pledges Patient Wait Time Guarantees. In that section Harper has promised that if patients can't be seen within a particular time interval at their local hospital, "they must be given the option of receiving treatment at another hospital or clinic, even outside their home province."

So indeed Harper's "pledge" is consisent with my claim. There's nothing in his pledge that rules out being sent to a private clinic or hospital which has shorter wait times and there's nothing that rules out US hospitals and clinics. Indeed those US hospitals have much shorter waiting times and their outrageous prices reflect that. So it appears that Harper's plan may result in millions of Canadian taxpayer dollars being funneled to the big businesses which run US health care. Good plan Harper. It will soon bankrupt our system far more quickly than any scheme any other party has ever contemplated.

[sharkman]

What's this Norman? I remember you saying you only oppose Harper because of social conservativism, or did you forget. I like your logic, though. Since Harper says nothing to absolutely rule it out, it also must mean that he's agreeable to letting enthusiastic aliens operate on patients when needed. And Martin must be in complete agreement since he never ruled the alien scheme out either.

Here's a reminder of what you said on social conservatism a few days ago Norman:

I'm not a socialist and CPC supporters are mistaken if they think that every Harper opponent is a socialist. What I oppose is social conservatism, not fiscal conservatism. I'd have no problem voting for a Progressive Conservative or any other party that was not full of social conservatives.

Edited December 6, 2005 by sharkman

[normanchateau]

Here's a reminder of what you said on social conservatism a few days ago Norman:

I'm not a socialist and CPC supporters are mistaken if they think that every Harper opponent is a socialist. What I oppose is social conservatism, not fiscal conservatism. I'd have no problem voting for a Progressive Conservative or any other party that was not full of social conservatives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's what I said alright Sharkman. What is that you think I've said subsequently that contradicts that?

Harper's plan to send Canadian patients at public expense to private clinics in the US if necessary is not fiscally conservative. Do you think such a plan is fiscally conservative?

[shoop]

Nothing on the site says anything about sending patients to the U.S.

You are not fostering debate. You are just trying to get a rise, and getting pretty tiresome at it.

Thanks for the link.  I went to it and clicked on Harper Pledges Patient Wait Time Guarantees.  In that section Harper has promised that if patients can't be seen within a particular time interval at their local hospital, "they must be given the option of receiving treatment at another hospital or clinic, even outside their home province."

So indeed Harper's "pledge" is consisent with my claim. There's nothing in his pledge that rules out being sent to a private clinic or hospital which has shorter wait times and there's nothing that rules out US hospitals and clinics. Indeed those US hospitals have much shorter waiting times and their outrageous prices reflect that.  So it appears that Harper's plan may result in millions of Canadian taxpayer dollars being funneled to the big businesses which run US health care.  Good plan Harper.  It will soon bankrupt our system far more quickly than any scheme any other party has ever contemplated. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>