Canadian Military

[Army Guy]

Black dog:

That doesn't indicate to me that it's a top priority, though. That just tells me that, if asked, people tend to believe that Canada's forces are an underfunded shambles. But I've yet to see a poll that puts military funding in the top 10.

I have tried and can not find a specfic poll to answer your question. Would you say the top ten would be on a major parties platform for re-election. And would you say our military will be on that platform.

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The vast majority of people worry about health care, education and the economy because those things have a real affect on their daily lives in ways in ways the military does not.

I agree i myself worry about these every day. However most people in Canada are unaware of just how the military effects them on a daily basis.

I doubt the state of the armed forces is even a top 10 concern for most people. Canada's military tradition is of answering the bell when called; unlike our southern neighbours, we don't get our rocks off on a strong standing military force.

You're taking umbrage here without disproving my point. You complained that the military is not a priority. I'm just telling you why that is.

We are arguing the same piont, and i was telling another poster that the only people that can change this is the voters. and was explaining why it should be a priority before it is to late.

Again, all I'm saying is that its no wonder the military is in disarray when it seems like no one has any idea what its mandate and needs actually are.

My piont is that the lack of a white paper just proves the lack of time and effort the government has given the military, writing such a paper would mean they would have to give us the tools to do the job. writing a weak paper would mean have to answer to the people for something else...not writing one at all means no questions.

So DND has taken it upon it self to re-structure to suit the budget and present equipment holdings.

Cool down. I'm sure you are aware that the politicization of the DND is part of the problem, right? There's a lack of leadership from all levels.

I'm not angry, and did not mean to come off that way, just saying bullshit.

Politicization of our higher command was a problem up until a few years ago, I believe that Gen Hiller has a grip on that now, and DND's gens are becoming more focused on the troops and the Dept. I will agree that we do have some room for approvement. As for the other levels i would say no,

I think this changed when DND stopped making excuses for our goverments leaders. and started becoming more transparent.

By the way, when was the last White Paper? 1994?

Yes 94,

Which is exactly what I was saying. Jeez.

DND did not push that purchase through, the goverment did...Subs were not even on the list of things to buy at that time. some polition seen them with a for sale sign on them and said this would be great....even the navy shook their heads in disbelieve....but when you starve someone for long enough they'll eat shit if you feed it to them...

you made it sound like it was DND who purchased the subs.

Here's an interesting (but partisan) look at defence: Breaking Rank. The segement on wasteful spending and white elephant programs is pretty illuminating.

Could you please send the link over again its damaged some how.

I will agree with you there is alot of waste in every dept. but most of these is the governments decision to continue these wastefull practices. It is strong government leadership that is required to change those across the entire government. something we have not had in a long time.

[Black Dog]

Missile defence as Bush's government proposes is an inherently flawed program. My military contacts tell me that anyone with an undergraduate physics degree can find flaws in it. Yet, in principle Canada must be involved. Doing otherwise would constitute a loss of sovereignty.

Uh uh. Involving ourselves in missile defense means letting another country set our defense priorities for us. That's giving up soverignty.

Who does the U.S. defend us from? Anyone who might want to screw with us, including al-Qaeda. When you live next to the world's only superpower, they have at least some control over your foreign policy. Even Trudeau realized that.

That's not an answer, nor is it logical. That's like saying, "I sleep with a garland of garlic around my neck to protect me from vampires. I have not been bitten by vampires, ergo, the garlic works."

AG: that link should work now.

[politika]

As for the state of this country's armed forces, Army Guy is correct. It is in the state that the people in this country want it to be in. Yet, because the socialist NDP bribed the Liberals into denying this country a role in missile defence, we have to rely on the U.S. to defend us.

Missile Defence (which Canada is deeply involved with, despite the "official" position to the contrary) is a perfect example of the type of militarily useless and financially wasteful project that has led Canada's armed force sto such a sorry state. The only poissible winners are the aerospace companies and other military contracters whose bottom lines are subsidized by such a white elephant. It's the 21st Centiry equivalent of the Ross rifle.

Our great enemy the U.S. who we take so much time dissing defends us.

From who?

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Don't be fooled their black dog. You think Canada doesn't have enimies? You think their ae no terrorists out their who would like noting more to see north america dissapear of the face of the earth? Not including CSIS reports on major terror cells in Canada. My point being is we do have enimies we are not as safe as we think we are, thast Canada's problem we think we are to safe and we spend less money on national security. I think in this ever changing world we need to make Military funding one of our top priorities, I am not saying we go and blow out education and health care over it but spend some money on it so we can at least defend Canada and not have to rely so much on the United States. Why would the USA want to defend us if they no if they needed are help we could not help than in a case that they needed are help?

[Laelius]

So what I have gathered from this post is, you have to have your child, freind, relative, or country men killed before you will take action? The reason we have an army if for preventive action.Really you should press for the inmediate disbandment of our entire army then when we get invaded we can quickly draft one up right?

"From the earlier Link"

Rank Country Amount (top to bottom)

#1 United States $276,700,000,000.00

#17 Canada $7,861,000,000.00

Now Canada is bigger than the U.S land wise...shouldnt we have to pay more to defend more land? but we do have significantly less citizens so there should be a happy median, personally I would press for a double on our spendings not on recruits or anyhting " recruit only what we need" ,but on our weaponry those submarines were a very idiotic idea. Let the running of the military be done by militant's who else knows there needs except those in need ?

Laelius

[Black Dog]

Don't be fooled their black dog. You think Canada doesn't have enimies? You think their ae no terrorists out their who would like noting more to see north america dissapear of the face of the earth? Not including CSIS reports on major terror cells in Canada. My point being is we do have enimies we are not as safe as we think we are, thast Canada's problem we think we are to safe and we spend less money on national security.

So wait: I thought the U.S. was protecting us from those big bad terrists? Are we sitting ducks here, or nestled safely in the bosom of Uncle Sam?

In any case, using terrorism as an excuse to bump up military spending is disingenous. I don't see how new Hercs (which are no doubt needed) or new submarines or CF-18 upgrades wil make us any safer from terrorism. If terrorism is the issue, then focus on domestic security (intelligence and law enforcement). A big, well-funded military didn't help thr U.S. on 9-11.

So what I have gathered from this post is, you have to have your child, freind, relative, or country men killed before you will take action?

Huh?

The reason we have an army if for preventive action.Really you should press for the inmediate disbandment of our entire army then when we get invaded we can quickly draft one up right?

No, the reason we have an army...well, that's unclear. Canada is not in a position to act as a deterrent (being so gosh-darned isolated geographically). We're in no danger of being invaded (the only country in a position to do so is the U.S., which we'd be unable to defend against even if we increased our military budghet by a factor of 10). We have no military enemies. This lack of focus is part of the problem and why the first step should be determining what role we want the CF to play.

Now Canada is bigger than the U.S land wise...shouldnt we have to pay more to defend more land?

We also have a population and economy that's 10 times smaller. Nor do we harbour any delusions about being the world's policeman.

[Laelius]

Note black dog I did cite our smaller population.

No enemies are you that blind? Ok lets assume we have no enemies we do have allies and they do have enemies and as a allie we should support them, shouldnt we?

Canada is in a position to be a deterrent through our peace keeping missions abroad, please tell me you dont think that has a positive imapct.

I was trying to point out that we should learn from what happens to others not just ourselves.

[Black Dog]

No enemies are you that blind?

Tell me: who are the enemies our military is suppossed to be deterring?

Ok lets assume we have no enemies we do have allies and they do have enemies and as a allie we should support them, shouldnt we?

Not neccesarily. What's more, our allies are all more than capable of handling themselves.

Canada is in a position to be a deterrent through our peace keeping missions abroad, please tell me you dont think that has a positive imapct.

Canada's contributions to peacekeeping have been slipping over the years. We're now ranked 38th among peacekeeping nations. The significance of Canada's peackeeping role is inverseley proportionate to the importance many Candians place on it.

[politika]

No enemies are you that blind?

Tell me: who are the enemies our military is suppossed to be deterring?

wow you are really blind, you think everybody loves Canada? Lets see enemies we have well I can name North Korea as a fact, Other small countries, as well as the fact that the Islamic Supremisists AKA Terrorists have decalred war on the West and have named Canada along with The USA, Australia, Spain, U.K as their enemies and have attacked them all EXCEPT for Italy and Canada open your eyes black dog and look whats ging on around you.

Ok lets assume we have no enemies we do have allies and they do have enemies and as a allie we should support them, shouldnt we?

Not neccesarily. What's more, our allies are all more than capable of handling themselves.

What if the time ever arrised that our allies needed help ever thought of that? It can happan

Canada is in a position to be a deterrent through our peace keeping missions abroad, please tell me you dont think that has a positive imapct.

Canada's contributions to peacekeeping have been slipping over the years. We're now ranked 38th among peacekeeping nations. The significance of Canada's peackeeping role is inverseley proportionate to the importance many Candians place on it.

Well this may be just my oppinion but I think it's time Canada gives up being the world peace keeping police and start consentrating on whats more important, our country and its well being.

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[tml12]

Missile defence as Bush's government proposes is an inherently flawed program. My military contacts tell me that anyone with an undergraduate physics degree can find flaws in it. Yet, in principle Canada must be involved. Doing otherwise would constitute a loss of sovereignty.

Uh uh. Involving ourselves in missile defense means letting another country set our defense priorities for us. That's giving up soverignty.

Who does the U.S. defend us from? Anyone who might want to screw with us, including al-Qaeda. When you live next to the world's only superpower, they have at least some control over your foreign policy. Even Trudeau realized that.

That's not an answer, nor is it logical. That's like saying, "I sleep with a garland of garlic around my neck to protect me from vampires. I have not been bitten by vampires, ergo, the garlic works."

AG: that link should work now.

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The U.S. is going to set MD policy anyway.

And it is a logical response. When you live next to the world's only remaining superpower, they will have some control over your foreign policy. How is my argument related to your garlic analogy? You know well that the CIA and CSIS work hand in hand.

[Black Dog]

wow you are really blind, you think everybody loves Canada? Lets see enemies we have well I can name North Korea as a fact, Other small countries, as well as the fact that the Islamic Supremisists AKA Terrorists have decalred war on the West and have named Canada along with The USA, Australia, Spain, U.K as their enemies and have attacked them all EXCEPT for Italy and Canada open your eyes black dog and look whats ging on around you.

That's the best you can do? You're basically conceding that there's no country hat is a threat to Canada. North Korea, in case you haven't noticed, is across teh Pacific ocean. As for terrorism, I've already pointed out that a beefed up military would do little good in combatting domestic terrorism.

The U.S. is going to set MD policy anyway.

And it is a logical response. When you live next to the world's only remaining superpower, they will have some control over your foreign policy. How is my argument related to your garlic analogy? You know well that the CIA and CSIS work hand in hand.

Your argument is that the U.S. protects us. But no one making this claim seems to be able to make a case as to who they are protecting us from. That they are the only thing keeping us safe is taken as a matter of faith.

Now, realities of "living next to the world's superpower" and all that aside, Canada should not jump into bed with every half-baked project the U.S. defense industry decides is necessary for their financial security. And if we had people of principle in government instea dof the current batch of whores, we'd be able to exercise a greater degree of soverignty over our foreign policy.

[politika]

wow you are really blind, you think everybody loves Canada? Lets see enemies we have well I can name North Korea as a fact, Other small countries, as well as the fact that the Islamic Supremisists AKA Terrorists have decalred war on the West and have named Canada along with The USA, Australia, Spain, U.K as their enemies and have attacked them all EXCEPT for Italy and Canada open your eyes black dog and look whats ging on around you.

That's the best you can do? You're basically conceding that there's no country hat is a threat to Canada. North Korea, in case you haven't noticed, is across teh Pacific ocean. As for terrorism, I've already pointed out that a beefed up military would do little good in combatting domestic terrorism

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Well I am not listing every country that wants to "waste" Canada, you should be able to figure it out yourself that Canada has enemies. My theory is basicly every country that hates the USA they hate Canada equally because some people think we are the USA. Unfortunatly the fact is North Korea is off the ocean but correct me if I am wrong they have claimed to have missiles that can reach North America and that's why the US is so concerened about dissarming crazy kim.

As for beefed up military it would do good IE if we purchased more CF18's it would be easy for Canada's Air Force to shoot down in coming plains. CSIS is doing a good job but I am sure they could be funded a little better to do their job as Canada's inteligence Agency.

[Black Dog]

Well I am not listing every country that wants to "waste" Canada, you should be able to figure it out yourself that Canada has enemies. My theory is basicly every country that hates the USA they hate Canada equally because some people think we are the USA.

And what threat do these countries pose to us, that's all I want to know.

Unfortunatly the fact is North Korea is off the ocean but correct me if I am wrong they have claimed to have missiles that can reach North America and that's why the US is so concerened about dissarming crazy kim.

Some versions of the Taepodong-2 missile may be capable of hitting North America, but that missile has not been tested. In fact, the DPRK hasn't tested a ballistic missile since 1998.

As for beefed up military it would do good IE if we purchased more CF18's it would be easy for Canada's Air Force to shoot down in coming plains.

Planes from where?

CSIS is doing a good job but I am sure they could be funded a little better to do their job as Canada's inteligence Agency.

That's a different issue from military spending.

[politika]

Well I am not listing every country that wants to "waste" Canada, you should be able to figure it out yourself that Canada has enemies. My theory is basicly every country that hates the USA they hate Canada equally because some people think we are the USA.

And what threat do these countries pose to us, that's all I want to know.

Well with a samll military like ares, we are vulnerable. SOmbody should also explain to you what happns when one country poses a threat to another

Unfortunatly the fact is North Korea is off the ocean but correct me if I am wrong they have claimed to have missiles that can reach North America and that's why the US is so concerened about dissarming crazy kim.

Some versions of the Taepodong-2 missile may be capable of hitting North America, but that missile has not been tested. In fact, the DPRK hasn't tested a ballistic missile since 1998.

But can it be launched on north america at any time? So if they did it once they can do it again right? that is my question to you.

As for beefed up military it would do good IE if we purchased more CF18's it would be easy for Canada's Air Force to shoot down in coming plains.

Planes from where?

No where I am obviously makeing a point that IF rouge planes were in Canadian Air space like in America on Spetember 11th what would we do?

CSIS is doing a good job but I am sure they could be funded a little better to do their job as Canada's inteligence Agency.

That's a different issue from military spending.

agree

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[Black Dog]

Well with a samll military like ares, we are vulnerable. SOmbody should also explain to you what happns when one country poses a threat to another

Yeah maybe someone should explain how Canada, a geographically isolated country, is threatened by anyone else.

But can it be launched on north america at any time? So if they did it once they can do it again right? that is my question to you.

Not sure, they've never tested it.

No where  I am obviously makeing a point that IF rouge planes were in Canadian Air space like in America on Spetember 11th what would we do?

Use our current batch of planes to shoot them down?

[tml12]

wow you are really blind, you think everybody loves Canada? Lets see enemies we have well I can name North Korea as a fact, Other small countries, as well as the fact that the Islamic Supremisists AKA Terrorists have decalred war on the West and have named Canada along with The USA, Australia, Spain, U.K as their enemies and have attacked them all EXCEPT for Italy and Canada open your eyes black dog and look whats ging on around you.

That's the best you can do? You're basically conceding that there's no country hat is a threat to Canada. North Korea, in case you haven't noticed, is across teh Pacific ocean. As for terrorism, I've already pointed out that a beefed up military would do little good in combatting domestic terrorism.

The U.S. is going to set MD policy anyway.

And it is a logical response. When you live next to the world's only remaining superpower, they will have some control over your foreign policy. How is my argument related to your garlic analogy? You know well that the CIA and CSIS work hand in hand.

Your argument is that the U.S. protects us. But no one making this claim seems to be able to make a case as to who they are protecting us from. That they are the only thing keeping us safe is taken as a matter of faith.

Now, realities of "living next to the world's superpower" and all that aside, Canada should not jump into bed with every half-baked project the U.S. defense industry decides is necessary for their financial security. And if we had people of principle in government instea dof the current batch of whores, we'd be able to exercise a greater degree of soverignty over our foreign policy.

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BD,

I think we agree more than we disagree.

My argument is this. The U.S. doesn't protect us because they really care about Canadians. Protecting Canadian residents is the job of the Canadian government.

HOWEVER, the U.S. has an interest here. We live on the same continent as them and they want to make sure of the things going on here. In saying the U.S. "protects us" what I should have been saying is that they "protect their interests here." During the WW II it was the Nazis, in the Cold War Communists, now al-Qaeda. The FBI has an office in Toronto, the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, and Tobacco does too. U.S. INS and Customs offices are in every major Canadian city and at every major Canadian airport.

[Army Guy]

Perhaps if we looked at this problem of why Canada needs a military at all in phases.

Phase 1 DND's main job is the defence of Canada, it can't do that if there is no military, be it big or small it needs a military force atleast capable of protecting its own borders.

Which brings up the question by whom is Canada threaten by.

-Any country that that could project a military force, most recent example is Hans Island , they have already demostrated that they could land troops if nessicary, and have done so publicly in thier current bun fight with ottawa. It would be a mout piont if we had no military force to counter that threat. It does not have to be a full scale attack, just taking small bites at a time.

- Protecting our borders, including our off shore fishing grounds, northern borders, and airspace. This function could be done by other depts but i must add in the past both France and Spain have sent warships to escort thier fishing ves, and in one case a French war ship rammed a Canadian frigate. what would have they done to an unarmed coast gaurd ves.

- terrorist, I did not want to add this because the military can actually do little to prevent an attack, however there is still a military element that can deal with terrorists be it shooting down aircraft or by the JTF option. The military plays a much larger roll in protecting high value targets such as parliment, our Nuk power plants etc. And they play a much bigger roll in the after math of any attack, no dept has the equipment or personal to deal with a dirty bomb, or chemical attack,

- protecting Canadians from ourselfs, be it from a Quebec separation or other internal crisses.

- Having a military plays a major roll in our foreign affairs policy. And what we can do outside our borders. let alone protecting Canada's interest outside of Canada.

- Any country that has a beef with the US, that pretty much includes everyone, Canada is the weakest link in the US security belt, going through Canada would be a tactical option.

Phase 2 operations other than war,

- without a military peace keeping would not be an option, And yes Canada has slipped in regards to peacekeeping with the UN but they are not the only peacekeeping group in town, with the UN becoming a toothless organization more effort has been placed with NATO operations such as Kosvo,Bosina, Afgan.

- Humanitarian missions would not be possiable without an organization similar to DND's

Phase 3 Domistic operations.

- there is no other organization other than DND that can provide Canadians with a quick response to major floods,ice storms, forest fires.

- DND provides a majority of the SAR effort in Canada.

My piont is Having a well equipped, military is not just about war, it's about serving Canada in a multitude of ways ...being prepared to defend everything we take for granted every day. it's about defending others so they can enjoy some of the freedoms we do, it's about our moral values. It's about ensuring that those that have paid the price for our current freedoms have not done so in vain.

[politika]

"Yeah maybe someone should explain how Canada, a geographically isolated country, is threatened by anyone else. "-blackdog

gladly,

maybe if you lived 200 years ago geographic isolation would have been a barrier But in the early 20th century a little thing called a airplane and ships which could run on steam engines were invented and have some what evolved now. As well as long range balistic missiles. So obviously geogrpahical isolation doesn't matter if you want to go to Africa you can because of transportation. Anyone can attack Canada from anywhere in the world.

[Hiei]

Don't listen to Politcika. Nothing he says is true, hes an Alberta seperatist, and he burns flags. His historical hero was Hitler and he wants statues of him >_>

He demanded I come to back up his flawed opinions, so I say the abover information, noone would attack Canada, Canada has winter on it's side, and that the end of it.

[tml12]

"Yeah maybe someone should explain how Canada, a geographically isolated country, is threatened by anyone else. "-blackdog

gladly,

maybe if you lived 200 years ago geographic isolation would have been a barrier But in the early 20th century a little thing called a airplane and ships which could run on steam engines were invented and have some what evolved now.  As well as long range balistic missiles.  So obviously geogrpahical isolation doesn't matter if you want to go to Africa you can because of transportation.  Anyone can attack Canada from anywhere in the world.

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Good point Curt!

[Black Dog]

"Yeah maybe someone should explain how Canada, a geographically isolated country, is threatened by anyone else. "-blackdog

gladly,

maybe if you lived 200 years ago geographic isolation would have been a barrier But in the early 20th century a little thing called a airplane and ships which could run on steam engines were invented and have some what evolved now.  As well as long range balistic missiles.  So obviously geogrpahical isolation doesn't matter if you want to go to Africa you can because of transportation.  .

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Canada is 9,984,670 square kilometres of most frozen tundra. That's a helluva lot of territory to cross. Most major population centres are mere kilometres from the U.S. border, which would bring any invader within easy striking distance of the U.S.(who would under no circumstances permit a hostile invasion force to waltz into one of its chief trading partners). Suppose someone decided to airdrop a force into Fort MacMurray? They'd have to first cross thousands of kilometres of hostile airspace and drop a large force into the middle of nowhere, miles away from any resupply.

Anyone can attack Canada from anywhere in the world

There's only a handful of countries with that kind of capability (including ballistic missiles).

I'm more worried about an alien invasion than an attack from a foreign country.

[politika]

"Yeah maybe someone should explain how Canada, a geographically isolated country, is threatened by anyone else. "-blackdog

gladly,

maybe if you lived 200 years ago geographic isolation would have been a barrier But in the early 20th century a little thing called a airplane and ships which could run on steam engines were invented and have some what evolved now.  As well as long range balistic missiles.   So obviously geogrpahical isolation doesn't matter if you want to go to Africa you can because of transportation.  .

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Canada is 9,984,670 square kilometres of most frozen tundra. That's a helluva lot of territory to cross. Most major population centres are mere kilometres from the U.S. border, which would bring any invader within easy striking distance of the U.S.(who would under no circumstances permit a hostile invasion force to waltz into one of its chief trading partners). Suppose someone decided to airdrop a force into Fort MacMurray? They'd have to first cross thousands of kilometres of hostile airspace and drop a large force into the middle of nowhere, miles away from any resupply.

What if this rouge planes destination isn't somwhere in the center of Canada that would just be suicide my freind. I am tlaking about one of our maratime cities could they drop somthing on a city liek that before CF18's ever interecepted it? But your comment about US protecting us i basicly saying we should bag the US for help everytiem the need arises instead of building a military of our own.

Anyone can attack Canada from anywhere in the world

There's only a handful of countries with that kind of capability (including ballistic missiles).

I'm more worried about an alien invasion than an attack from a foreign country.

I agree with you on this one but I am making a point about Canada not haveing to rely on a country and that their is still a small small chance of somone atacking Canada.

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[Black Dog]

What if this rouge planes destination isn't somwhere in the center of Canada that would just be suicide my freind. I am tlaking about one of our maratime cities could they drop somthing on a city liek that before CF18's ever interecepted it? But your comment about US protecting us i basicly saying we should bag the US for help everytiem the need arises instead of building a military of our own.

Well, the U.S.'s big sophisticated military didn't prevent four airplanes from being hijacked and flown around for hours before being used as kamikazes to kill more than 3,000 people on 9-11.

I don't think our nation's defence policy should be based on covering every single possibility, but should focus on the most likely threats. We need to find a role and focus on doing it well. Not just spend a bunch of money for the sake of spending money.

[politika]

What if this rouge planes destination isn't somwhere in the center of Canada that would just be suicide my freind. I am tlaking about one of our maratime cities could they drop somthing on a city liek that before CF18's ever interecepted it? But your comment about US protecting us i basicly saying we should bag the US for help everytiem the need arises instead of building a military of our own.

Well, the U.S.'s big sophisticated military didn't prevent four airplanes from being hijacked and flown around for hours before being used as kamikazes to kill more than 3,000 people on 9-11.

I still say conspiracy

I don't think our nation's defence policy should be based on covering every single possibility, but should focus on the most likely threats. We need to find a role and focus on doing it well. Not just spend a bunch of money for the sake of spending money.

Finnaly we agree on somthing, I think we should pick a certain part of our military and spend money on it. I dont sugest making Canada into a super power but make are military adequete to support our country and to support a small army to our allies like the US, Britain etc in LEGAL invasions of ocuntries

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[newbie]

Well, the U.S.'s big sophisticated military didn't prevent four airplanes from being hijacked and flown around for hours before being used as kamikazes to kill more than 3,000 people on 9-11.

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Yeah, and don't forget they had info about Bin Laden planning an attack in America the month before. Bush blamed intelligence agencies. Or, maybe he just didn't bother to read the memo?

[politika]

Well, the U.S.'s big sophisticated military didn't prevent four airplanes from being hijacked and flown around for hours before being used as kamikazes to kill more than 3,000 people on 9-11.

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Yeah, and don't forget they had info about Bin Laden planning an attack in America the month before. Bush blamed intelligence agencies. Or, maybe he just didn't bother to read the memo?

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Knowing Bush thats proabbly possible, proabbyl busy listenign to his Ipod or trying to open doors in the white house