How stupid is our Immigration system?

[Argus]

So the government is giving Ontario a billion bucks to train immigrants and help teach them English, huh?

But... I thought we were bringing in immigrants because of a skills shortage?

Apparently, though, too many of our immigrants have no skills. They don't speak English either. So we have to teach them English? Does the government feel immigrants with no language skills are going to be able to find well-paying jobs and succeed in Canada? Why do we let so many immigrants in who can't speak English?

Because the immigration system is not designed with Canada's needs or welfare i mind. It's designed to help the Liberal Party of Canada, at any cost, financial or otherwise to Canada.

Another indication of why the whole party should be thrown out as unfit.

[kimmy]

If we bring over a skilled immigrant-- perhaps a computer programmer from India-- he is able to bring to Canada a number of family members-- wife, brother, nephew, second-cousin twice removed-- who might have no skills in the least. Perhaps tightening up who they're allowed to bring to Canada would make sense. It would probably cost votes, however...

-k

[Canuck E Stan]

So the government is giving Ontario a billion bucks to train immigrants and help teach them English, huh?

Because the immigration system is not designed with Canada's needs or welfare i mind. It's designed to help the Liberal Party of Canada, at any cost, financial or otherwise to Canada.

Another indication of why the whole party should be thrown out as unfit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Our aboriginals got billions of dollars for a lot of years,for all types of programs, only to remain Canada's third world people.

Why is $$$ always the answer from the Libs?

The way they run their programs by throwing $$ and without thought never succeeds.It only prolongs the problem.

(Gun registry didn't solve the gun problem,

More money for healthcare isn't helping waiting lines.)

The Liberal thinking starts and ends with the loonie being the solution.

The government's thinking of bringing in more immigrants should be put on the backburner until they can actually correct the problems that the immigrants who are already here are encountering.

The stress and load of immigration is starting to take it's toll on our society.

Everything from schools to unemployment is affecting both the immigrants and Canadians.

[err]

If we bring over a skilled immigrant-- perhaps a computer programmer from India-- he is able to bring to Canada a number of family members-- wife, brother, nephew, second-cousin twice removed--  who might have no skills in the least.  Perhaps tightening up who they're allowed to bring to Canada would make sense.  It would probably cost votes, however...

-k

And if the Americans had this attitude when young Amar Bose came to the USA... He still owns 51% of the Billion dollar business he built... that ships around the world... and let's not forget the thousands of well-paid people in his employ...

How about the recently deceased German immigrant, Klaus Woerner who built up an automation business with his own hands.... and it's a multi-billion dollar Cambridge Ontario based company, Automation Tooling Systems.... His business employs a whole lot of 'skilled' Canadians who otherwise might not have been employed... and exports to every country in the world...

Should we keep these kinds of immigrants out in case their wives don't get good jobs.....

[Leafless]

Argus

You wrote- " I thought we were bringing in immigrants because of skills shortage"

"They don't speak English either"

" The system is not designed with Canada's needs or welfare in mind"

Then there is only one other possible scenario to consider and that is they are bringing them in under a political disguise to accomplish another politcal Liberal motive.

I wonder if the Liberals are purposely trying to add chaotic cultural conditions to cover the cutural aspirations of Quebec in it's quest for the political domination of Canada.

This of course is partly speculative but not entirely not feasable.

[RB]

I was speaking to a new Canadian today who was once a doctor in the Dubai. The family are in Canada for 16 months now and the fellow is on his way to becoming a doctor in Canada. He has 6-10 more months to finish a final exam, and must pass, otherwise wait to redo, then months thereafter to find someone to give him a break.

Anyway, I question him as to how the family survive with no jobs. Are they using their savings? No shocker, they are on the welfare system. They feel lots cheated with this immigration point system, and the sell of Canada. They paid 3,000 a head per family member to arrive in Canada.

He says someone has to pay for the disappointment and it sure ain't them. Both himself and his wife were doctors, they won't be the doctors they were here.

He aims to get the citizenship card and move on.

I am checking these numbers, we are so greedy for $3,000 but happy to make a payout $50,000 to support families for 3 years and I didn't even incorporated the health system

[Argus]

If we bring over a skilled immigrant-- perhaps a computer programmer from India-- he is able to bring to Canada a number of family members-- wife, brother, nephew, second-cousin twice removed--  who might have no skills in the least.  Perhaps tightening up who they're allowed to bring to Canada would make sense.  It would probably cost votes, however...

-k

And if the Americans had this attitude when young Amar Bose came to the USA... He still owns 51% of the Billion dollar business he built... that ships around the world... and let's not forget the thousands of well-paid people in his employ...

This is what's known as a logical fallacy. That one immigrant without apparent education or skills did good has no bearing on the question of whether allowing in hundreds of thousands of immigrants without apparent skills or education or language ability is good for Canada. Not when, demonstrably, most of them do not do good.

Almost everyone acknowledges that if you don't have a decent education in Canada you'll have a very hard time finding success here. Add in a lack of langauge ability and the likelihood of economic success becomes even more problematic.

A few years back polls showed that even among immigrants, most people felt all immigrants should be required to know English (or French in Quebec) before coming here. The government actually stated it was going to change the rules for this purpose but then backed down after lobbying from immigrant lobby groups and the immigration industry.

It might seem cold hearted, in the face of sentiments about reuniting families, and providing a refugee for people fleeing economic chaos, and being allowing in people from all over the world. But immigration should only be run for Canada's benefit. And it is in Canada's benefit to insist that all immigrants at least be reasonable educated and capable of speaking, reading and writing the native language. It is not in our interests to be allowing in so many tens of thousands of unskilled illiterates every year.

[August1991]

Anyway, I question him as to how the family survive with no jobs. Are they using their savings? No shocker, they are on the welfare system. They feel lots cheated with this immigration point system, and the sell of Canada. They paid 3,000 a head per family member to arrive in Canada.

RB, you are confusing two issues here: immigration and welfare. Don't blame one for the other. If our welfare system is generous and prone to fraud, is this the fault of immigrants?

This is what's known as a logical fallacy. That one immigrant without apparent education or skills did good has no bearing on the question of whether allowing in hundreds of thousands of immigrants without apparent skills or education or language ability is good for Canada. Not when, demonstrably, most of them do not do good.

How to know who is the "one immigrant", as you phrase it? And how to know which one will have a child, or a grandchild, who will grow up to do something phenomenal, creating a wonderful livelihood for your own children or grandchildren?

To select immigrants, the US now relies on a lottery system with ballots allotted by country and minimal requirements (high school, security, health).

BTW, we have argued this topic extensively here.

So let me be topical and tie this issue to another thread topic about crime. Is it racist to refuse certain people entry to Canada? For example, Europeans can enter Canada as tourists without a visa but Jamaican tourists, for example, require a visa. Should Canada discriminate on such a national basis?

More specifically, if it is learned that, foir example, 90% of Jamaican immigrant visa applicants are refused but only 2% of French immigrant visa applicants, is that evidence of systemic discrimination?

[cybercoma]

So the government is giving Ontario a billion bucks to train immigrants and help teach them English, huh?

But... I thought we were bringing in immigrants because of a skills shortage?

Apparently, though, too many of our immigrants have no skills. They don't speak English either. So we have to teach them English? Does the government feel immigrants with no language skills are going to be able to find well-paying jobs and succeed in Canada? Why do we let so many immigrants in who can't speak English?

Because the immigration system is not designed with Canada's needs or welfare i mind. It's designed to help the Liberal Party of Canada, at any cost, financial or otherwise to Canada.

Another indication of why the whole party should be thrown out as unfit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Liberal government hates white canadians born in Canada.

[kimmy]

If we bring over a skilled immigrant-- perhaps a computer programmer from India-- he is able to bring to Canada a number of family members-- wife, brother, nephew, second-cousin twice removed--  who might have no skills in the least.  Perhaps tightening up who they're allowed to bring to Canada would make sense.  It would probably cost votes, however...

-k

And if the Americans had this attitude when young Amar Bose came to the USA... He still owns 51% of the Billion dollar business he built... that ships around the world... and let's not forget the thousands of well-paid people in his employ...

How about the recently deceased German immigrant, Klaus Woerner who built up an automation business with his own hands.... and it's a multi-billion dollar Cambridge Ontario based company, Automation Tooling Systems.... His business employs a whole lot of 'skilled' Canadians who otherwise might not have been employed... and exports to every country in the world...

Should we keep these kinds of immigrants out in case their wives don't get good jobs.....

But does it stop at wives? For every skilled immigrant, how many unskilled family members come to Canada?

RB presents an interesting case-- skilled immigrants who came to Canada who aren't allowed to practice their skills because of a professional association. Now, obviously there has to be some sort of standard for certifying medical professionals before they're allowed to practice here... but it sounds as though the CMA has in this case made it very difficult for the new immigrants to obtain certification. Perhaps immigration and the CMA should have a chat with each other to determine whether we want more doctors in Canada or not.

-k

[szkw1]

Canada would not be where we are today without the sweat and toil of immigrats. Other than Aboriginal issues I'd say that on the whole immigrants have made this place a pretty good country.

Please don't paint all imigrants as being stupid, uneducated, and unable to communicate in English or French. I am an immigrant and know better.

The problem with the system is that foreign trained professionals are treated as if they know nothing and have to devote years and thousands of dollars taking tests to prove that their skills are useful. That is why Toronto has the most educated educated taxi drivers in the country. Immigrants come here hoping to practice their skills only to have doors slammed in their faces.

[Argus]

But does it stop at wives? For every skilled immigrant, how many unskilled family members come to Canada?

Too many, which is not something the one world types ever pause to consider when they expanded immigration into the third world. If we bring over a guy from Poland who is an engineer, his wife likely has at least approximately our standard education level, as does the brothers he sponsors, and their wifes. If we bring over a guy from Guyana or Bangladesh because he's an engineer, his wife likely has little or no job skills or education, and the brothers and other family members they sponsor probably won't have much either.

RB presents an interesting case-- skilled immigrants who came to Canada who aren't allowed to practice their skills because of a professional association.  Now, obviously there has to be some sort of standard for certifying medical professionals before they're allowed to practice here... but it sounds as though the CMA has in this case made it very difficult for the new immigrants to obtain certification.  Perhaps immigration and the CMA should have a chat with each other to determine whether we want more doctors in Canada or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I recall a magazine piece on Soviet doctors from a decade or more back which basically suggested their lack of familiarity with modern western surgical, technical and pharmaceutical techniques and processes would render them incapable of even working as a nurse here. I am doubtful about the qualifications of third world doctors, frankly. The answer to insufficient doctors and nurses - and other professionals, is to train more people, not import people from elsewhere.

[szkw1]

Too many, which is not something the one world types ever pause to consider when they expanded immigration into the third world. If we bring over a guy from Poland who is an engineer, his wife likely has at least approximately our standard education level, as does the brothers he sponsors, and their wifes. If we bring over a guy from Guyana or Bangladesh because he's an engineer, his wife likely has little or no job skills or education, and the brothers and other family members they sponsor probably won't have much either.

I recall a magazine piece on Soviet doctors from a decade or more back which basically suggested their lack of familiarity with modern western surgical, technical and pharmaceutical techniques and processes would render them incapable of even working as a nurse here. I am doubtful about the qualifications of third world doctors, frankly. The answer to insufficient doctors and nurses - and other professionals, is to train more people, not import people from elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please find that magazine article because it contradicts everything I have read.

Never the less, it is not only doctors from third world countries that have problems with licensing. All foreign doctors have to spend years and thousands of dollars to prove that they know what they are doing. This includes doctors from the UK, Germany, France and other non-third world countries.

Being trained in this country doesn't always mean that you are better trained than elsewhere. Being born in this country doesn't mean you are more intelligent than people from the rest of the world.

[scribblet]

So the government is giving Ontario a billion bucks to train immigrants and help teach them English, huh?

But... I thought we were bringing in immigrants because of a skills shortage?

Apparently, though, too many of our immigrants have no skills. They don't speak English either. So we have to teach them English? Does the government feel immigrants with no language skills are going to be able to find well-paying jobs and succeed in Canada? Why do we let so many immigrants in who can't speak English?

Because the immigration system is not designed with Canada's needs or welfare i mind. It's designed to help the Liberal Party of Canada, at any cost, financial or otherwise to Canada.

Another indication of why the whole party should be thrown out as unfit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree, immigration should be tied to the economy and available jobs. I too thought we had a skills shortage, now we have to train them anyway?

Another 700 millions this week for settlement services or some such thing.

This is just a blatent attempt at ethnic vote buying, surely the voters won't be fooled again.

[seabee]

[/quote|This is just a blatent attempt at ethnic vote buying, surely the voters won't be fooled again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How Parizeau-like.

[szkw1]

After reading this thread and having my posts ignored I have finally realised that Canadians are Xenophobic. Very few of you realise that the vast majority of immigrants are very well educated but are not given a chance because we are viewd as being unworthy of joining your clique.

No wonder I don't choose to become a citizen. You are all imigrants unless you are a native so get over it!

[scribblet]

[/quote|This is just a blatent attempt at ethnic vote buying, surely the voters won't be fooled again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How Parizeau-like.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really, so you don't think its an election ploy, just vote buying - nah Martin wouldn't so such a thing.

[Argus]

Canada would not be where we are today without the sweat and toil of immigrats.  Other than Aboriginal issues I'd say that on the whole immigrants have made this place a pretty good country.

Immigrants were necessary to build this country. Once it got build we no longer, to be honest, needed immigration. There was a perception in the sixties, seventies and eighties that we were a tiny country, population wize, and had to grow bigger. That was because we constantly compared ourselves to the Americans. In fact, some of the world's most successful nations are low in population. When i was a boy we had 20 million people. Now we have 30 million. I defy anyone to show me how that extra 10 million people has made this country a better place.

Please don't paint all imigrants as being stupid, uneducated, and unable to communicate in English or French.  I am an immigrant and know better.

I don't think anyone has said "all" immigrants are problems. That doesn't change the fact that every time there's a shootout downtown somewhere it involves immigrants. Nor does it change the fact that according to government statistics immigrants are not doing nearly as well as they used to do, that we are, in effect, bringing over many immigrants just to live their lives in poverty here. The gap between our high tech culture and that of most third world nations has grown too great to allow uneducated, unskilled immigrants to come here as they did a century ago, and prosper. And yes, certainly many do prosper, but too many do not. Our housing projects are full of immigrants, doomed to live their lives on welfare.

The problem with the system is that foreign trained professionals are treated as if they know nothing and have to devote years and thousands of dollars taking tests to prove that their skills are useful.

Realistically, how could we do otherwise? You say you're an engineer from the university of Botswana or something? But we know nothing about that university or its standards. You say you're a doctor from Pakistan who graduated from the university of Karachi. But we know nothing about them. How could we keep track of every institution of learning in the world? How can we tell which ones allow people to buy their degrees or which have the proper technical training? I don't want a foreign doctor working here until they've been certified as capable.

That being said, I think such certification could be speeded up, and given there is usually a long wait between application and arrival of immigrants, I'd think we could start the process of establishing credentials before they actually get off the plane here.

That is why Toronto has the most educated educated taxi drivers in the country.  Immigrants come here hoping to practice their skills only to have doors slammed in their faces.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know how educated taxi drivers are, but it's often hard to communciate with them. And if even the simplest of communications, like a street name, is sometimes hard, how do you engage in complex technical discussions?

[Argus]

After reading this thread and having my posts ignored  I have finally realised that Canadians are Xenophobic.  Very few of you realise that the vast majority of immigrants are very well educated but are not given a chance because we are viewd as being unworthy of joining your clique. 

No wonder I don't choose to become a citizen.  You are all imigrants unless you are a native so get over it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sulking seldom establishes a good reputation, neither is using idiotic cliches. You don't "choose" to become a citizen? Why are you here, then? Mor eto the point, why should we let you stay?

[Biblio Bibuli]

In fact, some of the world's most successful nations are low in population.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

---

[scribblet]

More people, more pollution, more farm land paved over for housing etc. etc. immigration should be tied to the economy. 60% of immigrants are economic, 40% are under the family reunification, who likely would not qualify to come in under their own two feet.

We need to put that money towards skills and apprenticeship training for people allready here who are unemployed or underemployed. We need to re-open trade shops in schools where the last two years is applied to an apprenticeship term. Increasing immigration by the proposed amount is insane, many economists feel we are heading towards a recession, GM laying off and closing plants, Merk in the States is laying of thousands and closing plant, whats next. Not a good time to increase immigration and money towards it.

[justcrowing]

After reading this thread and having my posts ignored  I have finally realised that Canadians are Xenophobic.  Very few of you realise that the vast majority of immigrants are very well educated but are not given a chance because we are viewd as being unworthy of joining your clique. 

No wonder I don't choose to become a citizen.  You are all imigrants unless you are a native so get over it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your reply is most unfair. The vast majority of immigrants are not the educated class. Educated immigrants must meet certain Canadian standards, which when met is not a clique but an opportunity to reap the benefits. I do not believe that the discussion here is about educated immigrants but the cost of those who come here that are uneducated and unemployed because they have no skills or even able to speak one of the two official languages.

If you do not choose to become a citizen and have the attitude you hold, they why are you still here? I am curious.