M. Bosclair clarifies his position

[Bakunin]

Bakunin, you pile absurdity in absurdity. You should first avail youself of a dictionary to properly understand the meaning of flexibility. Then, if it is still close to what you think mow, try to explaon how there is no flexibility in the arrangement of Canada.

What possible flexibility could be extended to the provinces when they have all the important jurisdictions now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eureka, there is no need for such agressivity in your post... im tired of it, forums are meaningless if we can't express ourselves like adult, im sure you can understand that. The provinces should have the right to opt out of a federal program because right now the problem is that the federal try to take over provincial juridiction like childcare, municipalities and etc...

If the provinces could opt out of those programs, then there would be no more fighting...

When i talk about flexibility, this is what i mean. A federal governement that adapt differently to each provinces according to their needs. a government still equal to each provinces but that could adapt to the reality...

[Guest eureka]

Then express yourself like an adult and don't continue to pound out these false positions. It does not take much of a mind to know that they are false and I amsure that you are only repeating the propaganda.

Provinces can opt out of programmes that are within their jurisdiction. They do not havt to sign agreements on matters such as childcare. Those that do, do it for the benefir of their citizens. Quebec would, as always, rather deny benefits to its citizens than lose the ability to blame Ottawa and English Canada for all its ills.

And, I am not in the least aggressive towards you. I most certainly am aggressive towards those who would destroy this country or decivilize its society. Aggressive is not a strong enough word for what I feel and would do.

[Bakunin]

Then express yourself like an adult and don't continue to pound out these false positions. It does not take much of a mind to know that they are false and I amsure that you are only repeating the propaganda.

Provinces can opt out of programmes that are within their jurisdiction. They do not havt to sign agreements on matters such as childcare. Those that do, do it for the benefir of their citizens. Quebec would, as always, rather deny benefits to its citizens than lose the ability to blame Ottawa and English Canada for all its ills.

And, I am not in the least aggressive towards you. I most certainly am aggressive towards those who would destroy this country or decivilize its society. Aggressive is not a strong enough word for what I feel and would do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In other word, quebeckers can't ask for flexibility without being seen as evil separatist...

[Riverwind]

In other word, quebeckers can't ask for flexibility without being seen as evil separatist...

The issue is not opting out per se, it is opting out with compensation (Eureka is right -Quebec always has the choice to opt out). The problem is the federal spending power is so large that it is difficult for a province to say no to the money offered by the feds so Quebec has always demanded to right to opt out AND get all the money that would have come if they had opted in. This is seen as a extremely self serving position in the rest of the country.

My opinion on this issue is all gov't programs must be administered by the same level of gov't that collects the taxes. That approach ensures proper accountability for how the money is spent and there can be a sensible debate about the level of service vs. the level of taxation.

For that reason, I feel that opting out with compensation would simply make the screwed up accountability system we already have worse. What I would rather see the transfer taxation powers to the provinces instead of paying money directly to the provinces.

[Bakunin]

I don't understand why it is seen as self serving to get money instead of services if we opt out...

If the federal spend 5 billions on childcare why would it be selfish to ask for a fair share if you opt out of that program.

It would be ridiculous if a province would have to pay for a program wich they opted out !

Is it because ppl think they get robbed by quebeckers ? or they are just against the opt out principle wich look pretty democratic to me ?

[Guest eureka]

Sparhawk explaone to yo the mechanics of opting out. I don't think his idea of transferring tax points instead of compensation is a solution, though.

The federal government cannot dictate what is done with transferred tax points as Quebec showed with the misuse of tax points transferred for healthcare.

More important, though, is the misunderstanding that underlies a transfer of tax points. When that happens, it is a weakening of the federal government since the ability to tax is its most important domestic power And the federal government is already too weak. Any visibility Ottawa might have is further diminished this way. Why did we get a Sponsorship programme?

A major problem in Canada, Sparhawk is the misconception that the federal spending power is too large. I have demonstrated in other discussions that it is not so. It does have taxing power but that cannot be used since it does not have the jurisdiction needs to spend on.

Canda's federal government spends far less as a proportion of national revenues than probably any other nation. Certainly much less than either the USA or Switzerland, two federations for which I have given figure in the past. Conversely, the Provinces in Canada spend far more than regions in other countries; three times as much as the US States.

If people would look at those relationships it would be easy to see what I have been trying to convey for a very long time. Canada's central government is the weakest in the world, domestically. And Canada's Provinces have powers and finances far beyond the needs of any regional government.

Canada is an impossible country while this jurisdictional imbalance continues. And Bakunin, unfortunately, puts the difficulty in a very clear light. He keeps coming back ad regurgitating the propaganda that the PQ and the Bloc have been propagating since their beginnings (the Quebec Provincial Liberals have done their share, too).

They pay for their propaganda with Canada's money.

What I have found despicable with the new Conservative movements; Reform and the successors, is that they have hindered any counter to the Quebec attack on Canada and Canadian values (democratic values) by somply jumping on the bandwagon of a supposed decentralizarion. Their concern has not been for Canada but for personal aggrandizement: supposed Provincial Rigts.

[Riverwind]

A major problem in Canada, Sparhawk is the misconception that the federal spending power is too large. I have demonstrated in other discussions that it is not so. It does have taxing power but that cannot be used since it does not have the jurisdiction needs to spend on.

Euraka, I agree with most of your points, however, I am looking at this from a pragmatic perspective. I feel the current model where the federal gov't pays for services delivered by the provinces is broken because the people responsible for running the programs are not responsible for collecting the taxes to pay for them. This leads to a situtation where provinces constantly blame Ottawa for problems which are really their fault.

In an ideal world I would like to see the federation reoganized where some powers that are now in the juristication of the provinces would be moved into the hands of the feds (i.e. securities regulation, environment). However, such a change would never happen in our lifetime. As a result, we are stuck with reducing federal taxes and increasing provincial taxes as the only way to fix the screwed up system of accountability in this country. I no longer beleive the status quo is acceptable.

[Guest eureka]

Btw, August, I did not mean that participants here are incapable of debating Bill 101. That was badly woeded.

I should have said that I do not see evidence of a background that would enable them to participate in a debate other than the usual victimization appeal.

[seabee]

,,, the usual victimization appeal.

Of course; the Anglo-Canadian way; victims should shut up! They must be ridiculed if they complain. They have been victimized for their own good, and they are too stupid to realize it.

[Guest eureka]

Would you care to debate it?