Gomery to be released.

[wellandboy]

While the rest of the country has to sit and wait until Tuesday, Paul Martin will receive a copy tonight (Monday) giving his spin meisters ample time to set prepared statements to refute Gomery's findings. I hope I'm not the only one who has a problem with this. This report is about corruption in the highest places within the Liberal Party and now they get an advanced copy. This whole exercise I thought was for the Canadian public, not the Liberal Party, the actual perpetrators of this debacle .

I'm starting to think the U.S. style of Special Prosecutor is the way to go.

Flush out the rats and maybe we can restore some faith in our political system.

I can't wait to hear the apologists comment on this one!

[cybercoma]

While the rest of the country has to sit and wait until Tuesday, Paul Martin will receive a copy tonight (Monday) giving his spin meisters ample time to set prepared statements to refute Gomery's findings. I hope I'm not the only one who has a problem with this. This report is about corruption in the highest places within the Liberal Party and now they get an advanced copy. This whole exercise I thought was for the Canadian public, not the Liberal Party, the actual perpetrators of this debacle .

I'm starting to think the U.S. style of Special Prosecutor is the way to go.

Flush out the rats and maybe we can  restore some faith in our political system.

I can't wait to hear the apologists comment on this one!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The whole thing is nothing more than a circus.

[FTA Lawyer]

While the rest of the country has to sit and wait until Tuesday, Paul Martin will receive a copy tonight (Monday) giving his spin meisters ample time to set prepared statements to refute Gomery's findings. I hope I'm not the only one who has a problem with this. This report is about corruption in the highest places within the Liberal Party and now they get an advanced copy. This whole exercise I thought was for the Canadian public, not the Liberal Party, the actual perpetrators of this debacle .

I'm starting to think the U.S. style of Special Prosecutor is the way to go.

Flush out the rats and maybe we can  restore some faith in our political system.

I can't wait to hear the apologists comment on this one!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While my gut reaction is the same as yours wellandboy, I begrudginly have to defend the early release of the report. The early release is to the office of the PM, not to Martin or the Liberal Party...it just so happens that the current PM is a Liberal (and potentially to be criticized personally in the report)...bad luck I suppose.

If the last election had resulted in a Conservative minority, I suspect very few would argue that the PM should not get an advanced look at the report. Keep in mind that there are major potential consequences for the Canadian economy and international reputation that hinge on the findings of this report.

In international circles, if the Canadian government looks debilitated, confused, or disorganized by the Gomery report (or any such report) and there is no semblance of preparedness to answer tough questions about what the report means, we could be yet to experience the worst harm of ADSCAM.

Internally, the Canadian people know enough about what went on that they will not be snowed by spin doctors. Gomery's report is expected to call it like it is, and if he is unambiguous, it leaves little room for spinning anyway.

I am certainly not saying this from the viewpoint of an apologist, just recognizing that a government prepared for intense scrutiny from outside our borders is much better than a bunch of surprised goofs making knee-jerk reactions and on-camera comments for the world to see.

FTA Lawyer

[Leader Circle]

While the rest of the country has to sit and wait until Tuesday, Paul Martin will receive a copy tonight (Monday) giving his spin meisters ample time to set prepared statements to refute Gomery's findings. I hope I'm not the only one who has a problem with this. This report is about corruption in the highest places within the Liberal Party and now they get an advanced copy. This whole exercise I thought was for the Canadian public, not the Liberal Party, the actual perpetrators of this debacle .

I'm starting to think the U.S. style of Special Prosecutor is the way to go.

Flush out the rats and maybe we can  restore some faith in our political system.

I can't wait to hear the apologists comment on this one!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While my gut reaction is the same as yours wellandboy, I begrudginly have to defend the early release of the report. The early release is to the office of the PM, not to Martin or the Liberal Party...it just so happens that the current PM is a Liberal (and potentially to be criticized personally in the report)...bad luck I suppose.

If the last election had resulted in a Conservative minority, I suspect very few would argue that the PM should not get an advanced look at the report. Keep in mind that there are major potential consequences for the Canadian economy and international reputation that hinge on the findings of this report.

In international circles, if the Canadian government looks debilitated, confused, or disorganized by the Gomery report (or any such report) and there is no semblance of preparedness to answer tough questions about what the report means, we could be yet to experience the worst harm of ADSCAM.

Internally, the Canadian people know enough about what went on that they will not be snowed by spin doctors. Gomery's report is expected to call it like it is, and if he is unambiguous, it leaves little room for spinning anyway.

I am certainly not saying this from the viewpoint of an apologist, just recognizing that a government prepared for intense scrutiny from outside our borders is much better than a bunch of surprised goofs making knee-jerk reactions and on-camera comments for the world to see.

FTA Lawyer

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you nailed it there FTA. If it implicates Martin, Canada is going to be very embarassed on the world stage. Even though I'd like nothing more than Martin's Liberals to be destroyed by it, we need to save some face internationally. We don't need to be a bigger joke than we already are. In all honesty, I think we need Martin to be left out of the report. It would damage our economy more than we know. It is quite unfair that they get an early viewing of this, but as you say, they are in power and it should go to the PMO.

I hope we all don't lose out because of a screw up by a few tainted Liberals. Eureka should love this post by me!!! Yes Eureka, I said a few tainted Libs!!!

[Guest eureka]

I think you did indeed, FTA. However, Yodeler, as usual had to embellish it with the assertion that Canada is an international joke.

The reality is, that we are the envy of all those peoples whose government oficials line theor own pockets with impunity without ever an oversight by any institutional body. That includes our dear friends and neighbours to the West and South.

[Leader Circle]

I wonder if maybe Martin was clear of all this sponsorship stuff anyway, even though he was Minister of Finance.

Here's my thought on this.

Martin & Chretien were fierce competitors in the leadership race to replace Turner.

Chretien was dead against NAFTA and Martin supported it. Chretien was against the Meech Lake Accord and Martin supported it. They have always been at odds and played different sides of the same party. Maybe Chretien is fully to blame here, because Martin was not welcome on the inner circle Chretien stuff??

My problem with this theory is: Why did Chretien make him Minister of Finance if he did not consider Martin a friend or inner circle buddy???? Martin has obviously had some stroke with the Liberals, dating back a long ways. Was that enough to get a high posting? Or was he in on the whole shebang and played his part in the Chretien Mafia?

Can some of the Liberal supporters here shed some light on this? I got a feeling Martin will be clean, much to my right-sided disappointment.(Sort of)

[August1991]

The whole thing is nothing more than a circus.

I agree.

Richard Nixon was one of the first to create a Special Prosecutor and he did so in response to the Senate Watergate hearings. I think politicians ever since have seen it as a way to control a scandal. (Bear in mind the partisan nature of Washington and the natural opposition between the President and Congress.)

I feel very uncomfortable with this Gomery Commission. It seems to me that it should be Parliament, or a parliamentary committee, investigating this matter.

If this is played right in English Canada, then Martin will somehow appear to be above the whole mess - just as Bush appeared uninvolved in this Plame affair.

In Quebec, the damage has been done and I don't think the report will change anything regardless of what it says or who it implicates.

In international circles, if the Canadian government looks debilitated, confused, or disorganized by the Gomery report (or any such report) and there is no semblance of preparedness to answer tough questions about what the report means, we could be yet to experience the worst harm of ADSCAM.

I don't know if you understand to what extent Canada is irrelevant in international circles. In addition, there is nothing so boring or confusing as a domestic scandal seen from a foreign country. This will have zero impact abroad, and will merit at most an article in The Economist that only Canadian specialists will read.

The reality is, that we are the envy of all those peoples whose government oficials line theor own pockets with impunity without ever an oversight by any institutional body. That includes our dear friends and neighbours to the West and South.

Hein?

My problem with this theory is: Why did Chretien make him Minister of Finance if he did not consider Martin a friend or inner circle buddy????

Lyndon Johnson had a good answer to that: it's better if he's inside th tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.

[FTA Lawyer]

In international circles, if the Canadian government looks debilitated, confused, or disorganized by the Gomery report (or any such report) and there is no semblance of preparedness to answer tough questions about what the report means, we could be yet to experience the worst harm of ADSCAM.

I don't know if you understand to what extent Canada is irrelevant in international circles. In addition, there is nothing so boring or confusing as a domestic scandal seen from a foreign country. This will have zero impact abroad, and will merit at most an article in The Economist that only Canadian specialists will read.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

August,

Perhaps you missed my point...

Canada may be a mere footnote when it comes to its outward participation in the international scene, but there happens to be the odd country interested in investing here...like the U.S., China, Japan, and the U.K. to name a few, and we do happen to export some of our resources here and there.

I'm not suggesting the world will shudder if our government is rendered senseless by the Gomery report...but it matters significantly to those who are deciding where to put their money. The damage I'm talking about is certainly not abroad...it's right here at home.

FTA Lawyer

[August1991]

I'm not suggesting the world will shudder if our government is rendered senseless by the Gomery report...but it matters significantly to those who are deciding where to put their money.

Irrelevant, or as relevant as Lewinsky to the NASDAQ. (Some certainty on income trusts, or serious changes to corporate taxes would make a much bigger difference.)

Even if the Tories showed signs of forming a government, I doubt you would see a short-run difference in the investment climate. Even Quebec sovereignty has been factored into investment decisions in Quebec. People here know what they're doing.

Adscam and Gomery? It's a domestic political scandal.

All my opinion, of course. We'll know in a few hours what Gomery thinks, how the Liberals will spin this and how others will react.

[Riverwind]

My problem with this theory is: Why did Chretien make him Minister of Finance if he did not consider Martin a friend or inner circle buddy????

Until the 1990s the Finance portfolio was the kiss of death. I am sure Chertian was shocked to find out that budget cutting actually made Martin popular.

[ScottBrison]

While the rest of the country has to sit and wait until Tuesday, Paul Martin will receive a copy tonight (Monday) giving his spin meisters ample time to set prepared statements to refute Gomery's findings. I hope I'm not the only one who has a problem with this. This report is about corruption in the highest places within the Liberal Party and now they get an advanced copy. This whole exercise I thought was for the Canadian public, not the Liberal Party, the actual perpetrators of this debacle .

I'm starting to think the U.S. style of Special Prosecutor is the way to go.

Flush out the rats and maybe we can  restore some faith in our political system.

I can't wait to hear the apologists comment on this one!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have full faith in our political system, I mean so far it's kept the Fascists out.

[ScottBrison]

I wonder if maybe Martin was clear of all this sponsorship stuff anyway, even though he was Minister of Finance.

Here's my thought on this.

Martin & Chretien were fierce competitors in the leadership race to replace Turner.

Chretien was dead against NAFTA and Martin supported it. Chretien was against the Meech Lake Accord and Martin supported it. They have always been at odds and played different sides of the same party. Maybe Chretien is fully to blame here, because Martin was not welcome on the inner circle Chretien stuff??

My problem with this theory is: Why did Chretien make him Minister of Finance if he did not consider Martin a friend or inner circle buddy???? Martin has obviously had some stroke with the Liberals, dating back a long ways. Was that enough to get a high posting? Or was he in on the whole shebang and played his part in the Chretien Mafia?

Can some of the Liberal supporters here shed some light on this? I got a feeling Martin will be clean, much to my right-sided disappointment.(Sort of)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ya, I too think Chretien set up Martin, and as for him being made Finance Minister, it was probably to heal a divided party.

[Minimus Maximus]

The release of this report to the PMO is just that, a release to the PMO. Any possible spin the Liberal party can put on these findings will be negated within 24hrs of the report being released to the rest of the politcal spectrum. Was this not fully expected by all of us?

A week from now the findings will be a mear footnote and the spins put on the report by Canada's political entities will be all Canadian's remember anyway.

[Shakeyhands]

After reading the initial release reports I would think that there are many here who will be disappointed with the findings of Gomery. It would seem that the investigation backs up earlier assertions from the PM that these were a few bad apples, not a systemic problem.

[Montgomery Burns]

After reading the initial release reports I would think that there are many here who will be disappointed with the findings of Gomery.  It would seem that the investigation backs up earlier assertions from the PM that these were a few bad apples, not a systemic problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Folks, don't feed this troll's ignorant assumptions. Just ignore it and it will hopefully go away to "debate" someone at rabble.ca.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Shakeyhands,

After reading the initial release reports I would think that there are many here who will be disappointed with the findings of Gomery.

I, for one, am very disappointed. I find it silly that he would exonerate Martin yet blame Chretien. If Martin didn't know 'why' the expenditures were taking place, he was still in charge of 'how, when, where and to whom'. If Maritn knew none of these things, then he was the 'world's most incompetent boob'. Or, everyone submitted testimony to 'protect the hand that feeds them' ( at Nurmberg, Speer wrote in his journals that the unwritten motto amongst the accused Nazi leaders was 'incriminate the absent'), the incumbent PM, P.M.

[kimmy]

After reading the initial release reports I would think that there are many here who will be disappointed with the findings of Gomery.  It would seem that the investigation backs up earlier assertions from the PM that these were a few bad apples, not a systemic problem.

I think it is quite hilarious that Liberal supporters here are trying to spin this as some sort of vindication for the party. Martin being exhonerated is literally the only good news for the Liberals in any of this.

Let's have a look back over the past couple of years at some of the Liberal spin that has been completely discredited.

"A few bad apples."

A few bad apples that just happen to include Prime Minister Chretien's chief of staff at the time, two consecutive executive directors of the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party, the former Public Works minister, and some of Jean Chretien's closest friends and collaborators. As I have argued before, when the "rogue elements" in the party just happen to include the leader and his inner circle, they're not "rogue elements".

"not a systemic problem."

Two consecutive directors of the Quebec wing of the party have been fingered. That points to system, rather than rogue individuals. Gomery found that the sponsorship program was intended from conception to avoid transparency. That points to system rather than rogue individuals.

"There was no political direction."

Gomery says there was political direction.

"These ad-men and crooks are not credible."

Gomery disagreed. The Liberals have banned for life a number of its members based on that testimony, so the Liberals must agree too.

-k

[Riverwind]

If Martin didn't know 'why' the expenditures were taking place, he was still in charge of 'how, when, where and to whom'. If Maritn knew none of these things, then he was the 'world's most incompetent boob'.

Dear Thelonius,

When we had this discussion you agreed that a spending program would have to meet a minimum size requirement before one could expect the Finance minister to know about it. Although we disagreed on whether a 60 million/year program was large enough to expect personal knowledge by the Finance Minister the fact that a threshold exists is important to remember.

Gomery appears to have decided that a 60/million per year project is not large enough to require personal attention from the finance minister and that the responsibility for ensuring the money is spent properly rested solely with public works.

Furthermore, as Kimmy notes, there are many extremely damning findings in the report so you cannot dismiss the report as a whitewash.

[Shakeyhands]

After reading the initial release reports I would think that there are many here who will be disappointed with the findings of Gomery.   It would seem that the investigation backs up earlier assertions from the PM that these were a few bad apples, not a systemic problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is quite hilarious that Liberal supporters here are trying to spin this as some sort of vindication for the party. Martin being exhonerated is literally the only good news for the Liberals in any of this.

Let's have a look back over the past couple of years at some of the Liberal spin that has been completely discredited.

"A few bad apples."

A few bad apples that just happen to include Prime Minister Chretien's chief of staff at the time, two consecutive executive directors of the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party, the former Public Works minister, and some of Jean Chretien's closest friends and collaborators. As I have argued before, when the "rogue elements" in the party just happen to include the leader and his inner circle, they're not "rogue elements".

"not a systemic problem."

Two consecutive directors of the Quebec wing of the party have been fingered. That points to system, rather than rogue individuals. Gomery found that the sponsorship program was intended from conception to avoid transparency. That points to system rather than rogue individuals.

"There was no political direction."

Gomery says there was political direction.

"These ad-men and crooks are not credible."

Gomery disagreed. The Liberals have banned for life a number of its members based on that testimony, so the Liberals must agree too.

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When was this portrayed as a whitewash? I'm not saying that there weren't serious issues and some people who were involved in some pretty serious illegal activities. What I do know, is that from what I have gleaned from the report so far, it implicates a precisous few from within the party and is not the smoking gun held firmly in PMPM's hand that the CPC and Bloc want.

I like what Martin is doing about it to at this point, haning the investigation over to the RCMP and banning people from the party. But I am sure you have issues with his action to this point as well.

[Guest eureka]

This is a complete exoneration of Martin; not "spin." Spin is half lies and there is nothing that Martin says that Gomery did not. I see that as the conclusion of any fair minded onlooker and not of "Liberal supporters."

Interestingly, there is as yet no conclusion that there was any wringdoing by Chretien or Pelletier. Nothing more than that this was wrongly set up to be in the political control of the PMO.

Political direction there certainly was and that has been known from the beginning. Any reasonable person would have understood that. It does not mean that there was complicity in the scam.

This continued assault on Chretien's character is not very attractive. Chretien could have gone from politics years ago with an enviable reputation and have made far more money than he could ever hope for as a politician. He did not: and did not because of his determination to fight for Canada while so many, like some posters here, preferred to sit at home with their heads stuck in neutral.

I happen to think, as I have said many times that Chretien was wrong in his choice of weapons. That does not lessen his committment or his inyegrity.

How this plays out is far from certain yet. However, it will, eventually, be lighted with a far more coherent and less partisan analysis.

[Argus]

When was this portrayed as a whitewash?  I'm not saying that there weren't serious issues and some people who were involved in some pretty serious illegal activities.  What I do know, is that from what I have gleaned from the report so far, it implicates a precisous few from within the party

Yes, those in charge of the party.

I like what Martin is doing about it to at this point,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just what, of substance, has Martin done about any of this that he had any chance to NOT do?

[Argus]

This is a complete exoneration of Martin; not "spin." Spin is half lies and there is nothing that Martin says that Gomery did not. I see that as the conclusion of any fair minded onlooker and not of "Liberal supporters."

Says the dedicated Liberal supporter

Interestingly, there is as yet no conclusion that there was any wringdoing by Chretien or Pelletier. Nothing more than that this was wrongly set up to be in the political control of the PMO.

Political direction there certainly was and that has been known from the beginning. Any reasonable person would have understood that. It does not mean that there was complicity in the scam.

I'm confused. You admit there must have been political direction - it wasn't just a coincidence that all the people who made money were Liberal supporters - and yet you suggest it didn't come from the PMO and PM, who were explicitely in charge of this program, who took it upon themselves to manage it and make all the decisions. The Chief of the privy council wrote to Chretien twice to point out the dangers of this and to suggest that more appropriate management be put in place. He ignored her both times. The line of control was Chretien, his chief Peltier, to Gagliano and Guite. Anyone who thinks that what Guite was doing would have surprised Chretien and Peltier must be truly naive.

This continued assault on Chretien's character is not very attractive.

Jean Chretien's legacy is that most Canadians believe he was nothing more than a liar and a thief. And I believe it too. He was always a vulgar, greasy, ruthless man who abrogated all power to himself and never believed that there were any constraints upon his will. His continued bleating about the sponsorship program saving Canada, or even being designed to save Canada, when we all know it was explicitly designed to funnel money into his campaign supporters pockets and get kickbacks for his party is simply insulting to anyone of even moderate intelligence.

[Guest eureka]

To use one of your favourite words, Argus, that is drivel. Belief is not evidence.

The program was set up and directed, I am sure. Hoever, there is nothing to link any senior Liberal with the frauds. I am sure that you, as a manager, have delegated to trusted subordinates. I am sure that some subordinates rourinel cheat on their expense accounts or do business with friends and you would not necessarily know. Not without a very long nose and twenty four hours a day to check everything that is done and to do no work yourself.

[shoop]

This is a complete exoneration of Martin; not "spin." Spin is half lies and there is nothing that Martin says that Gomery did not. I see that as the conclusion of any fair minded onlooker and not of "Liberal supporters."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm, what fair-minded person said this?

I believe that the proposition that Ministers and their political staff have no responsibility for the proper implementation and adminsitration of government programs and policies is an inadequate and incomplete expression of the principle of ministerial responsibility

Gomery said it himself! So how exactly is this a *complete* exoneration of Martin?

Better try a new line. The *complete* exoneration line ain't gonna fly with any but the committed.

[Argus]

To use one of your favourite words, Argus, that is drivel. Belief is not evidence.

The program was set up and directed, I am sure. Hoever, there is nothing to link any senior Liberal with the frauds. I am sure that you, as a manager, have delegated to trusted subordinates. I am sure that some subordinates rourinel cheat on their expense accounts or do business with friends and you would not necessarily know. Not without a very long nose and twenty four hours a day to check everything that is done and to do no work yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me explain how money is spent on projects in the federal government. Usually a manager comes up with an idea. He writes up a justification; what he wants to do, what it will cost, what he expects to get out of it. He takes it to his director, or higher, depending on the amount. They have a meeting to hash things out. Then, assuming approval, the thing is done. Afterwards, the manager will submit an after the fact assessment of how it went, whether the project goals were achieved, etc. etc. This takes place over as little as $5-10k of money being spent. It is routine. It is very nearly inviolate. There is an arm of my directorate which is involved in promotion. It works exactly the same for them. They want to create a video and run it on TV, they want to attend trade shows, give conferences to industry reps, produce cute little key chains and mouse pads and coffee cups - they justify it in writing, to their superiors, up the chain of command, on the basis of the use it will be, the production it will save, the value of the information which will get out to taxpayers, etc. etc.

During the sponsorship program, Guite spent amounts ranging from $100k to several million dollars on sponsoring this or that fair, event or project. With no paperwork. No justifications. No post project assesments. Nothing. There is absolutely no way in hell a man on his level could have gotten away with that without support from the very top, and I mean, the PMO. Even a cabinet minister would have been hammered if he tried something on that scale.

Remember how Gomery expressed some sympathy for the PWGSC Deputy minister? DM's usually have their ministers well in hand. If the minister acts up the DM contacts the Clerk of the Privy Council, who has a little word with the PM or the PMs chief of staff. That abruptly brings the minister back into line. This process didn't work in this case because the PM and his chief of staff were running the show. The Clerk of the privy council sent at least two written memos to the PM explaining the problems of the way things were being run. This was ass covering. You can be sure that the CPC had several less formal discussions on this, and got nowhere, so finally did formal memos to cover herself in the even things collapsed.