clear-eyed vision of Quebec

[Bakunin]

"clear-eyed vision of Quebec" is a manifesto signed by a few political & financial celebrity but principally by Lucien bouchard to wake up quebeckers about upcomming challenge. I was very pleased because i like bouchard and facal vision of politics wich is center-right, a kind of progressist conservativism wich fits totally my vision. It has alot of echo in quebec right now and could lead to major change, IMO, needed change to face the new century with vigor. This major breakthrough for the right leaning movement could also speed up the begining of an interesting political change, the end of 100% public healthcare.

Celebrity:

Lucien Bouchard

Joseph Facal

Pierre Fortin

Robert Lacroix

Sylvie Lalande

Claude Montmarquette

André Pratte

Denise Robert

Jean-Claude Robert

Guy Saint-Pierre

Marie Saint Pierre

Denise Verreault

Manifesto website:

http://www.pourunquebeclucide.com/site/cgi...me.index@lang=2

[August1991]

Bouchard is a very, very good politician. His interview on Le Point was excellent.

I agree with raising electricity prices, raising tuition fees and dealing with the school drop-out rate. Bouchard was right to mention Quebec suicide rates and whether his boys will stay in Quebec or not. The public debt is only an issue in the context of the role of the State - it is odd that Bouchard argues that the State has no margin to manoeuvre so we must give it even more resources. The obsession with demographics is an old story in Quebec. I am not one to be fearful about India or China: that strikes me as demagoguery. Quebec, like Iceland and Norway, will always be a small place in the world.

I genuinely liked the attempt to be non-partisan and provoke a debate about the future of Quebec. But the manifesto's writers are Quebec's baby boomers and they have a peculiar view of themselves and history. I somehow sense that Dumont and Boisclair, for example, ultimately have a different, less pessimistic view of these questions.

Bakunin, thanks for creating the thread. I too think that Facal will get back into politics.

For English-Canada, it is sad that such discussions take place through the CBC. Pathetic.

[Riverwind]

Bouchard is a very, very good politician.  His interview on Le Point was excellent.

It was nice to finally see some sensible debate in Quebec that does not blame everything on the feds and insist that all problems would be solved by seperation.

For English-Canada, it is sad that such discussions take place through the CBC.  Pathetic.

I am not sure what you mean? Is it sad that the profit driven media are not that much concerned with Canadian national issues and tend to focus more on the local or the international? If so I agree.

[tml12]

Bouchard is a very, very good politician.  His interview on Le Point was excellent.

I agree with raising electricity prices, raising tuition fees and dealing with the school drop-out rate.  Bouchard was right to mention Quebec suicide rates and whether his boys will stay in Quebec or not.  The public debt is only an issue in the context of the role of the State - it is odd that Bouchard argues that the State has no margin to manoeuvre so we must give it even more resources.  The obsession with demographics is an old story in Quebec.  I am not one to be fearful about India or China: that strikes me as demagoguery.  Quebec, like Iceland and Norway, will always be a small place in the world.

I genuinely liked the attempt to be non-partisan and provoke a debate about the future of Quebec.  But the manifesto's writers are Quebec's baby boomers and they have a peculiar view of themselves and history.  I somehow sense that Dumont and Boisclair, for example, ultimately have a different, less pessimistic view of these questions.

Bakunin, thanks for creating the thread.  I too think that Facal will get back into politics. 

For English-Canada, it is sad that such discussions take place through the CBC.  Pathetic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. Class sizes at our universities are out of control...higher tuition will mean smaller classes and better professors, enhancing the learning environment of our children.

I always liked Bouchard...I thought he was fair and examined both sides of a situation, although I haven't always agreed with all his comments.

BTW Charest has got to find some of that irony funny though...

[Bakunin]

Bouchard is a very, very good politician.  His interview on Le Point was excellent.

I agree with raising electricity prices, raising tuition fees and dealing with the school drop-out rate.  Bouchard was right to mention Quebec suicide rates and whether his boys will stay in Quebec or not.  The public debt is only an issue in the context of the role of the State - it is odd that Bouchard argues that the State has no margin to manoeuvre so we must give it even more resources.  The obsession with demographics is an old story in Quebec.  I am not one to be fearful about India or China: that strikes me as demagoguery.  Quebec, like Iceland and Norway, will always be a small place in the world.

I genuinely liked the attempt to be non-partisan and provoke a debate about the future of Quebec.  But the manifesto's writers are Quebec's baby boomers and they have a peculiar view of themselves and history.  I somehow sense that Dumont and Boisclair, for example, ultimately have a different, less pessimistic view of these questions.

Bakunin, thanks for creating the thread.  I too think that Facal will get back into politics. 

For English-Canada, it is sad that such discussions take place through the CBC.  Pathetic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. Class sizes at our universities are out of control...higher tuition will mean smaller classes and better professors, enhancing the learning environment of our children.

I always liked Bouchard...I thought he was fair and examined both sides of a situation, although I haven't always agreed with all his comments.

BTW Charest has got to find some of that irony funny though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that what the government has to do is to identifiate how much money is at his disposal, then put lets say 1-1.5 billions to repay de debt per years (wich would slowly grow to 3-4billions in the next 10years and that would pay half of your debt in 25 years), then start with that to find the good amount % of money to put in school and healthcare. Once we spent all that, we let the private sector take the complementary role to assure that all needs are appropriatly filled.

I think that the big problem with the quebec model is that we try to fix education by spending lots of money in it and cutting evrywhere esle, then we get a partial success on the short term, then we try to fix healthcare but it means we need to cut in education wich destroy what we was fixing.

In other word we need to realize that public healthcare and public education will never be perfect and thats why we need a complementary private sector so that each citizen depending on his needs will decide either at a certain time of his life to pay more for better education or more for better healthcare and the structure will be there to accomodate his needs.

If we deny ppl to have better education or healthcare (private), then we have to choose between education or healthcare because the states doesn't have enough money to put into both so either both are in bad shape or one is in good shape and the other in extremly bad shape. We should let the population choose with his money either he want better education or better healthcare. If he doesnt have money then he will still be able to have regular education and healthcare.

The role of the states should be to spend wisely the limited amount of money it has at his disposal and let the private sector complete his sector to assure the best quality of service possible to the population.

[Guest eureka]

It could be a signal for the end of the PQ which has outlived any usefulness it may have had - as with the Bloc.

The Pq has always been an uneasy alliance of members who span the political spectrum with the conservatives among them submerged in the Nationalist sentiment.

If this is a maturing of Quebec politics, then it is to be welcomed on many levels. It may usher in an age of geuine politic discourse and policy to replace the destructive nationalistic ethnicity that has dominated Quebec politics for forty years.

[Bakunin]

Evry nation are at a point nationalist. It is funny to see a genuine canadian nationalist bash quebecker for being nationalist.

You are such an extremist nationalist that you used to fight in a secret group that you are afraid to explain to us...

sorry to break your dream but this manifesto is only about political managment of a society wich has nothing to do with the constitutionnal debate.

[Guest eureka]

Quebec is not a nation therefore Quebec "nationalist" is an oxymoron. You can be a Canadian Nationalist or you can be a brainwashed idiot but not a Quebec nationalist.

There was nothing secret at all about my group. I am just not going to identify anyone to you,

You know, Bakunin, we were so secret that I once had a bullet through my Living Room window.: after dark, of course. That is when your "Nationalists" did their best work.

[Bakunin]

Canadian nationalist do evrything they can to differentiate themselve from the american. They don't like to be controled by americans.

Canadian nationalist do evrything they can to control quebeckers and force them to be canadian.

In other word they do to others what they don't want to suffer from.

This is what im fighting for... i want canadian nationalist (majority are liberals) to stop being asshole and let the quebeckers live their life... im not fighting for sovreingty, im fighting for justice... let us alone and we'll stay or continue and we'll have to go its that simple...

[Guest eureka]

You are joking, right?

[Riverwind]

Canadian nationalist do evrything they can to control quebeckers and force them to be canadian.

Let's see: for most of the the last 40 years the Prime Minister of Canada and a signficant portion of the federal cabinet have been from Quebec. Yet you have the nerve to say 'Canadians are trying to control Quequers'.

You should stop talking as if Quebequers are unified on this issue. The debate between seperation and confederation has split Quebec society in two for generations and is still going on today. If Quebequer's were anything close to unified on this issue you would see quite a different attitude from the rest of the country.

This is what im fighting for... i want canadian nationalist (majority are liberals) to stop being asshole and let the quebeckers live their life... im not fighting for sovreingty, im fighting for justice... let us alone and we'll stay or continue and we'll have to go its that simple...

When you need an excuse to justify anything just say you are doing it for liberty and justice. Works for Bush in Iraq and works for Quebec seperatists. However, the facts are different. Quebec is part of Canada today therefore it is reasonable to expect Quebec to co-operate with the rest of the country. Breaking up the country would cause HUGE economic and social disruptions and therefore needs considerable more justification than trivial arguements over federal/provincial powers.

[tml12]

Canadian nationalist do evrything they can to control quebeckers and force them to be canadian.

Let's see: for most of the the last 40 years the Prime Minister of Canada and a signficant portion of the federal cabinet have been from Quebec. Yet you have the nerve to say 'Canadians are trying to control Quequers'.

You should stop talking as if Quebequers are unified on this issue. The debate between seperation and confederation has split Quebec society in two for generations and is still going on today. If Quebequer's were anything close to unified on this issue you would see quite a different attitude from the rest of the country.

This is what im fighting for... i want canadian nationalist (majority are liberals) to stop being asshole and let the quebeckers live their life... im not fighting for sovreingty, im fighting for justice... let us alone and we'll stay or continue and we'll have to go its that simple...

When you need an excuse to justify anything just say you are doing it for liberty and justice. Works for Bush in Iraq and works for Quebec seperatists. However, the facts are different. Quebec is part of Canada today therefore it is reasonable to expect Quebec to co-operate with the rest of the country. Breaking up the country would cause HUGE economic and social disruptions and therefore needs considerable more justification than trivial arguements over federal/provincial powers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes but then Sparhawk if any separatist thought about it there would be fewer of them.

Just like Quebec will have billions of dollars in surplus after the referendum (and after around oh I dunno thousands of anglos leave???)

It's no wonder idealism factors in here...

[Bakunin]

Let's see: for most of the the last 40 years the Prime Minister of Canada and a signficant portion of the federal cabinet have been from Quebec. Yet you have the nerve to say 'Canadians are trying to control Quequers'.

I never said canadian ? i said canadian nationalist and ironically, the most extremist canadian nationalist are quebeckers but thei aren't many.

You should stop talking as if Quebequers are unified on this issue. The debate between seperation and confederation has split Quebec society in two for generations and is still going on today. If Quebequer's were anything close to unified on this issue you would see quite a different attitude from the rest of the country.

Well, the 3 party in quebec are fighting for canadian nationalist to let quebeckers live, it doesnt mean that quebeckers are all united but provincial party are at a point all fighting for something simillar. There are many way to leave quebeckers alone. They have 3 different approach, one wants to instaure asymetrical federalism or a meech style accord, one want to instaure an autonomous state (china/hong-kong style), one want to build a new country.

[tml12]

Let's see: for most of the the last 40 years the Prime Minister of Canada and a signficant portion of the federal cabinet have been from Quebec. Yet you have the nerve to say 'Canadians are trying to control Quequers'.

I never said canadian ? i said canadian nationalist and ironically, the most extremist canadian nationalist are quebeckers but thei aren't many.

You should stop talking as if Quebequers are unified on this issue. The debate between seperation and confederation has split Quebec society in two for generations and is still going on today. If Quebequer's were anything close to unified on this issue you would see quite a different attitude from the rest of the country.

Well, the 3 party in quebec are fighting for canadian nationalist to let quebeckers live, it doesnt mean that quebeckers are all united but provincial party are at a point all fighting for something simillar. There are many way to leave quebeckers alone. They have 3 different approach, one wants to instaure asymetrical federalism or a meech style accord, one want to instaure an autonomous state (china/hong-kong style), one want to build a new country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are many federalist views on how to keep confederation together: Liberals would argue through a strong central government, Conservatives prefer the "community of communities" approach championed by Joe Clark.

Then we have the separatist views on the issue: the "sovereignty-association" approach championed by Levesque and the flat out independence championed by Parizeau.

[Leafless]

Bakunin

What exactly are you trying to say?

In Quebec you have Quebec nationalist who are militant with their own Quebec style ideologies unlike Canadians from the rest of Canada.

In Quebec you also have Quebec separatist who's main goal is to separate from Canada.

If there is any group trying to control Canada it is Quebec with their language, culture and nationalism. I mean they can't even get their colour of margarine right in Quebec it's white.

[Bakunin]

Bakunin

What exactly are you trying to say?

In Quebec you have Quebec nationalist who are militant with their own Quebec style ideologies unlike Canadians from the rest of Canada.

What i wanted to say is that as much as there is quebec nationalism, there is canadian nationalism.

In Quebec you also have Quebec separatist who's main goal is to separate from Canada.

To separate is an action, its not a goal, the goal is to give quebecker more control over their destiny. It can aslo be some kind of hope to build something better in what we would feel home.

I think its quite normal not wanting to be the minority. Quebeckers want to be part of the action not to be canada's backbencher. Now ppl will say, but the PM is a quebecker.... well we can't see him as a quebecker because he has a different personality, he thinks different and he gotta try to do compromise all the time and it end up we can't see our vision in him. Its a bit like if canada and usa had the same president. Quebec liberals PM are like alien to us, we don't see em often and we feel thei are out of touch.

If there is any group trying to control Canada it is Quebec with their language, culture and nationalism. I mean they can't even get their colour of margarine right in Quebec it's white.

Well this is a bit what we feel like minus the margarine things , we feel the federal government is invading us, trying to control too much in things where they shouldn't have the right and in things we don't want them to have the right. Lets face it, when you don't share the same media, the same culture, the same language, the same vision then you can't ignore its like 2 different world like the liberal are doing...

I mean why not let evryone live their life and when both agree on something then it create a link, a bridge between the two cultures. thats how we have to build canada. Not by forcing links and doing stuff that one or the other doesn't want...

Its should be something we could be proud of... right now we constantly have to watch our back not to get stabbed and its a constent fight...

We where really close to start fixing canada with meech, if we ever restart it won't be easy but its the only way to fix things other then having do dissolve canada.

[Guest eureka]

You are a lost cause, Bakunin. I had these kinds of arguments with many a "Nationalist" but I never found one - at least an intelligent one - who did not admit in the end that it came down to ethnic differences.

Never did I know one who maintained the fiction away from the public view that Quebec was suppressed in any way or that it did not have appropriate "powers."