NDs lose MP Desjarlais.

[shoop]

random story

So Desjarlais has quit the caucus. Much less influence for the CCF/NDP/NDs in the house.

Current standings.

Liberals 133 (including speaker)

CPC 98

BQ 54

ND/NDP/CCF 18

Independents 4

Open 1 (Cadman)

154 votes are needed to defeat the government.

Could Harper and Duceppe get two of the four independents onside?

Desjarlais is definitely running again as an independent. Kilgour and Bennett aren't running period. Anybody know O'Brien's plans?

All pretty academic. The CPC won't force an election now because a Christmas election isn't good for anybody. BUT it does force PM Dithers to keep to his word, no weaseling out by trying to wait for the FINAL OFFICIAL REPORT of Justice Gomery.

[Shakeyhands]

Shoop, your constant reference to Paul Martin as Mr Dithers makes you look like a real idiot... Can you come up with another name for him?

How about the Prime Minister Paul Martin? It has a nice ring to it eh!

[I Miss Trudeau]

Shoop, your constant reference to Paul Martin as Mr Dithers makes you look like a real idiot...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its also a clear violation of the rules of this forum.

[shoop]

Shoop, your constant reference to Paul Martin as Mr Dithers makes you look like a real idiot... Can you come up with another name for him?

How about the Prime Minister Paul Martin?  It has a nice ring to it eh!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you insult me for using a name given to Martin by one of the most presitgious magazines in the world? Hmmm, good old Liberal fair play at work.

[August1991]

Shoop, your constant reference to Paul Martin as Mr Dithers makes you look like a real idiot... Can you come up with another name for him?

How about the Prime Minister Paul Martin?  It has a nice ring to it eh!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you insult me for using a name given to Martin by one of the most presitgious magazines in the world? Hmmm, good old Liberal fair play at work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We discussed the issue here. Miss Trudeau is right, Shoop is wrong.

----

As to Desjarlais, Layton did not want her running as an NDP candidate and I'm sure he put whatever effort he could into ensuring she lost the nomination. Yet, she may well be re-elected as an independant.

Underneath this question is a dilemma about the NDP's "new" persona.

Is the NDP a social libertarian party in favour of urban progressive ideals protecting the rights of individuals to be what they are? Or is the NDP a party promoting the views of working class people?

This is an old debate that has been essentially decided. The NDP is an urban party of social libertarians.

[tml12]

Shoop, your constant reference to Paul Martin as Mr Dithers makes you look like a real idiot... Can you come up with another name for him?

How about the Prime Minister Paul Martin?  It has a nice ring to it eh!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you insult me for using a name given to Martin by one of the most presitgious magazines in the world? Hmmm, good old Liberal fair play at work.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We discussed the issue here. Miss Trudeau is right, Shoop is wrong.

----

As to Desjarlais, Layton did not want her running as an NDP candidate and I'm sure he put whatever effort he could into ensuring she lost the nomination. Yet, she may well be re-elected as an independant.

Underneath this question is a dilemma about the NDP's "new" persona.

Is the NDP a social libertarian party in favour of urban progressive ideals protecting the rights of individuals to be what they are? Or is the NDP a party promoting the views of working class people?

This is an old debate that has been essentially decided. The NDP is an urban party of social libertarians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

August,

Define "social libertarians." Do you mean libertarian socialism? If so, how can you explain the NDP's big government policies? I think the NDP is a socially democratic party in the roots of the French Socialists and the UK'S Old Labour...

[shoop]

We discussed the issue here.  Miss Trudeau is right, Shoop is wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Touché, but what about shakeyhands calling me an idiot? Is there a double-standard at work here?

As for that what about err continually ignoring the name of the Official Opposition? Seriously, he has repeatedly used "Reform/Alliance/Conservative party". THREE TIMES in one post. How is that any different? It is understandable how members of the Conservative Party of Canada who take offense to that name.

If the rules are to be applied so be it.

If the board is to be free of attacks, then let's all play nice.

I have spoken to Greg on PM about some of these issues. I understand where he is coming from. I hope he can see that it is only natural to pose these questions. If he wants to keep the debate civil and respectable let's crack down on the insults to party names as well.

I am not aiming to be barred a la mirror. Seriously hope my voice is heard though.

Greg, if you are gonna bar me, at least be fair and give shakeyhands the boot as well.

[August1991]

I think the NDP is a socially democratic party in the roots of the French Socialists and the UK'S Old Labour...

The European Left and the North American Left were not the same before and are certainly not the same now.

The NDP's new support now derives from voters in favour of same-sex marriage, and choice in personal lifestyle. In the US, these voters are Democrats. Whether in the US or Canada, they are typically urban voters in favour of the freedom to choose.

[shoop]

The NDP's new support now derives from voters in favour of same-sex marriage, and choice in personal lifestyle.  In the US, these voters are Democrats.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you talking about 'new' supporters of the Democrats as well? Seems like they lost votes nationally, using presidential results as a barometer, between 2000 and 2004. Why did they lose more supporters than they gained?

August1991 is wrong.

[err]

I think the NDP is a socially democratic party in the roots of the French Socialists and the UK'S Old Labour...

The European Left and the North American Left were not the same before and are certainly not the same now.

The NDP's new support now derives from voters in favour of same-sex marriage, and choice in personal lifestyle. In the US, these voters are Democrats. Whether in the US or Canada, they are typically urban voters in favour of the freedom to choose.

And let's not forget labour....

[August1991]

I think the NDP is a socially democratic party in the roots of the French Socialists and the UK'S Old Labour...

The European Left and the North American Left were not the same before and are certainly not the same now.

The NDP's new support now derives from voters in favour of same-sex marriage, and choice in personal lifestyle. In the US, these voters are Democrats. Whether in the US or Canada, they are typically urban voters in favour of the freedom to choose.

And let's not forget labour....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like the BC NDP support for the labour of striking teachers?

Let me be clear. The NDP has chosen to seek the votes of young, urban, social libertarians. These are people who want to be free to choose and want respect for their choices.

People who vote for Bev Desjarlais are different. And striking teachers are different again.

[tml12]

I think the NDP is a socially democratic party in the roots of the French Socialists and the UK'S Old Labour...

The European Left and the North American Left were not the same before and are certainly not the same now.

The NDP's new support now derives from voters in favour of same-sex marriage, and choice in personal lifestyle. In the US, these voters are Democrats. Whether in the US or Canada, they are typically urban voters in favour of the freedom to choose.

And let's not forget labour....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like the BC NDP support for the labour of striking teachers?

Let me be clear. The NDP has chosen to seek the votes of young, urban, social libertarians. These are people who want to be free to choose and want respect for their choices.

People who vote for Bev Desjarlais are different. And striking teachers are different again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People who vote for Bev Desjarlais represent a more socially conservative, communitarian wing of the NDP no doubt about it...but, I still think NDP tries to appeal to all kinds of left of centre voters and not libertarians who would never accept the NDP's fiscal policies!!!

[shoop]

People who vote for Bev Desjarlais represent a more socially conservative, communitarian wing of the NDP no doubt about it...but, I still think NDP tries to appeal to all kinds of left of centre voters and not libertarians who would never accept the NDP's fiscal policies!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Completely agreed!

The Green Party represents the social libertarian views August1991 is trying to ascribe to the CCF/NDP/NDs.

[Shakeyhands]

We discussed the issue here.  Miss Trudeau is right, Shoop is wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Touché, but what about shakeyhands calling me an idiot? Is there a double-standard at work here?

As for that what about err continually ignoring the name of the Official Opposition? Seriously, he has repeatedly used "Reform/Alliance/Conservative party". THREE TIMES in one post. How is that any different? It is understandable how members of the Conservative Party of Canada who take offense to that name.

If the rules are to be applied so be it.

If the board is to be free of attacks, then let's all play nice.

I have spoken to Greg on PM about some of these issues. I understand where he is coming from. I hope he can see that it is only natural to pose these questions. If he wants to keep the debate civil and respectable let's crack down on the insults to party names as well.

I am not aiming to be barred a la mirror. Seriously hope my voice is heard though.

Greg, if you are gonna bar me, at least be fair and give shakeyhands the boot as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe I said it makes you look like an idiot... at no time did I call you an idiot. Perhaps I should have?

[Black Dog]

Is the NDP a social libertarian party in favour of urban progressive ideals protecting the rights of individuals to be what they are? Or is the NDP a party promoting the views of working class people?

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

[Argus]

As to Desjarlais, Layton did not want her running as an NDP candidate and I'm sure he put whatever effort he could into ensuring she lost the nomination.  Yet, she may well be re-elected as an independant.

Underneath this question is a dilemma about the NDP's "new" persona.

Is the NDP a social libertarian party in favour of urban progressive ideals protecting the rights of individuals to be what they are?  Or is the NDP a party promoting the views of working class people?

This is an old debate that has been essentially decided.  The NDP is an urban party of social libertarians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I agree. But also, the NDP is probably the most "closed" of the major parties to dissent with party policy. You can, if you're a liberal or tory, be pro-choice, or pro-life. You can be for gay marriage, or against. You can be for immigration or against. And on down the line. But the NDP has a strict set of party beliefs which, like a religion, you have to believe fully in in order to belong or be accepted. Dissent on any of those beliefs and you're a heretic and must be cleansed or removed. Most parties would accept the moral right to vote in a certain way if your constituents were overwhelmingly of that mind, but that cuts no ice with the NDP. This political zealotry is one of the reasons Canadians will never trust them to form a federal government. No matter how bad the two main alternatives are.

[Guest eureka]

That is the nub of it, Black Dog. I find it a constant source of amusement to watch partisans struggling to fit Parties into pigeon holes while ignoring the policies and base support.

[August1991]

Is the NDP a social libertarian party in favour of urban progressive ideals protecting the rights of individuals to be what they are? Or is the NDP a party promoting the views of working class people?

Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not necessarily. But if we take Bev Desjarlais as an example, when push comes to shove, it is the social libertarians that trump the working class interests.

The same is on evidence with the BC teachers strike.

In simple terms, the typical NDP voter resembles more Sven Robinson, and less Buzz Hargrove.

[Black Dog]

Yes, I agree. But also, the NDP is probably the most "closed" of the major parties to dissent with party policy. You can, if you're a liberal or tory, be pro-choice, or pro-life. You can be for gay marriage, or against. You can be for immigration or against. And on down the line. But the NDP has a strict set of party beliefs which, like a religion, you have to believe fully in in order to belong or be accepted. Dissent on any of those beliefs and you're a heretic and must be cleansed or removed. Most parties would accept the moral right to vote in a certain way if your constituents were overwhelmingly of that mind, but that cuts no ice with the NDP. This political zealotry is one of the reasons Canadians will never trust them to form a federal government. No matter how bad the two main alternatives are.

's'funny, y'know: people bemoan the lack of principles in politics, the paucity of leadership, th e"flip-floppin" and ass-covering that is the day-to-day routine of pretty much all politicians. Yet the one party so committed to its core principles that it refuses to allow its own members to deviate from them (even at the expense of political clout), they are characterized as fanatics. Better, I suppose to have the ditherers and the flip-floppers in charge.

Not necessarily. But if we take Bev Desjarlais as an example, when push comes to shove, it is the social libertarians that trump the working class interests.

The same is on evidence with the BC teachers strike.

In simple terms, the typical NDP voter resembles more Sven Robinson, and less Buzz Hargrove.

"Working class" interests are not limited to social issues, which is what this is all about. It's unfortunate that social conservatism has come to be identified as a working class trait and thus the purvue of political parties and ideaologies that have the least interest in the economic well-being of the working class.

[Argus]

Yes, I agree. But also, the NDP is probably the most "closed" of the major parties to dissent with party policy. You can, if you're a liberal or tory, be pro-choice, or pro-life. You can be for gay marriage, or against. You can be for immigration or against. And on down the line. But the NDP has a strict set of party beliefs which, like a religion, you have to believe fully in in order to belong or be accepted. Dissent on any of those beliefs and you're a heretic and must be cleansed or removed. Most parties would accept the moral right to vote in a certain way if your constituents were overwhelmingly of that mind, but that cuts no ice with the NDP. This political zealotry is one of the reasons Canadians will never trust them to form a federal government. No matter how bad the two main alternatives are.

's'funny, y'know: people bemoan the lack of principles in politics, the paucity of leadership, th e"flip-floppin" and ass-covering that is the day-to-day routine of pretty much all politicians. Yet the one party so committed to its core principles

that it refuses to allow its own members to deviate from them (even at the expense of political clout), they are characterized as fanatics. Better, I suppose to have the ditherers and the flip-floppers in charge.

I don't regard political correctness as a core principle. In any democratic group the core principle should be to represent the interests of your constituents. If you don't follow that core principle you won't be a representative for them - hence the NDP's continued failure So that even after years of incompetence, corruption and dreadfully boring candidates and platforms from the major parties the NDP still has gained NOTHING. It has yet to come close to equalling the power and respect it held thirty years ago.

"Working class" interests are not limited to social issues,

No, but most of the social issues the NDP prioritises are generally way, way down on the list of working class concerns, presuming they're even ON the list.

[Toro]

Well, that's one less seat for the NDP and one more for the Liberals.

The NDP should emulate Tony Blair. This "Third Way, No Way" campaign that went on at one of their conventions a few years back keeps them as a bit player on the national scene.

As to August's question about what the NDP are, I grew up in Saskatchewan, and it floors me that there are exactly zero NDP MPs from that province. (And 13 Tories.) That's your answer about whether they are working class or urban, academic, white-wine socialists.

[err]

I don't regard political correctness as a core principle. In any democratic group the core principle should be to represent the interests of your constituents. If you don't follow that core principle you won't be a representative for them - hence the NDP's continued failure.

And that's why Belinda jumped ship, because what she saw as the wishes of her constituents weren't being considered at all by Steven Harper... So instead of being pushed down by Harper, she left for a party she believed she could make a difference in...

Come to think of it there were big issues of this nature within the Reform/Conservative party when looking for a leader, and then again in several ridings' nominations.... And with the Liberal party in Brampton.... So I hardly see how you can single out the NDP as the only party that does this...

So that even after years of incompetence, corruption and dreadfully boring candidates and platforms from the major parties the NDP still has gained NOTHING. It has yet to come close to equalling the power and respect it held thirty years ago.

I wonder if Argus is jealous that the NDP has a sharper candidate than the Reform/Conservatve party...

And I wonder if Argus could inform us of "corruption" within the NDP party (Svend won't count)... and then see if it tallys up with the Liberal scandal or the Conservative's Airbus scandal...

"Working class" interests are not limited to social issues,

No, but most of the social issues the NDP prioritises are generally way, way down on the list of working class concerns, presuming they're even ON the list.

I suspect that you haven't looked at and don't know what they offer... they're just commies, aren't they Argus...

[shoop]

And I wonder if Argus could inform us of "corruption" within the NDP party (Svend won't count)... and then see if it tallys up with the Liberal scandal or the Conservative's Airbus scandal...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So when it's convenient for you it is the "reform/conservative" party, but when convenient you talk about Progressive Conservative scandals.

Why doesn't Sven count? Theft isn't a crime? Or, he was, and sadly likely will be again, an MP for the CCF/NDP/Neverhaveoreverwillformgovernment/NDs....

[Canuck E Stan]

And that's why Belinda jumped ship, because what she saw as the wishes of her constituents weren't being considered at all by Steven Harper... So instead of being pushed down by Harper, she left for a party she believed she could make a difference in...

If Belinda followed the wished of her constituents (who voted for her as a conservative,not a Liberal) she would have taken a position of an independent and left her constituents to vote in the next election for her as a Liberal.

I suspect that you haven't looked at and don't know what they offer... they're just commies, aren't they Argus..

Calling yourself an NDPer I suspect you know even less about the NDP platform. Based on your posts in the past,spewing negatives about the other parties is the NDP platform.

[err]

Why doesn't Sven count? Theft isn't a crime? Or, he was, and sadly likely will be again, an MP for the CCF/NDP/Neverhaveoreverwillformgovernment/NDs....

Individual crime non-related to the public office should be considered differently from crime relating to the abuse of office.

You just cant seem to get Sven off your mind... I've seen you talk about him quite a bit.... I wonder how I should interpret that....