Sprawl

[Cartman]

It seems as though suburban sprawl has some pretty negative effects on society including the construction of more roads, traffic jams, greater energy consumption, higher taxes etc. What, if anything, should governments do about this problem?

http://tinyurl.com/92zk9

[Black Dog]

Sprawl is the sludge you get when you mix greedy developers and short-sighted government together. The North AMerican way of life is built on sprawl, which in turn is built on cheap oil. Once the latter is too expensive or in too short supply, then the whole works will come tumbling down.

[kimmy]

Here in Edmonton, we have a land-area larger than Detroit, with less than 1/4 the population. I recently bicycled to Nisku for a job interview, and went via 50th street and south through Beaumont, then east to Nisku... and found that surprisingly between new housing developments and industrial parks, the land between here and there is filling up pretty quickly. The International Airport isn't going to be "out in the middle of nowhere" for much longer.

I think that something the city has realized recently is that the tax revenues and so-on from the new developments is starting to be offset by the cost of providing services way out there. I think we are starting to see better use of land-- I read that the population in the downtown core will soon be double what it was a few years ago, thanks to new developments on formerly under-utilized properties. We have big new developments springing up in other places within the city as well... the abandoned Heritage Mall site is supposedly going to become a huge development that'll house over 5000 people; we have also seen the old WCB lot turned into housing; the university has leased out land at Michener Park for high-density residential housing, and I see many high-density developments being built around the south side. It looks to me as though people have started realizing that at the rate the city is growing, better use of land within the city is a necessity.

How to fight sprawl? I think that making new developments on the edges of town reflect the cost of providing services out there is one way. I think that also providing tax incentives for developers to better utilize land within the city would make sense, not just from an environmental point of view, but also just plain economic sense. I am always a little perplexed when I see an empty lot or barely-used strip mall in what should be a valuable location. I think that the way to influence peoples' behavior is through their wallets, and the city has the power to direct how development occurs using taxation and other financial measures.

-k

[feloniusteabag]

Dear Cartman,

What, if anything, should governments do about this problem?

The only way to address the problem is a bit of 'social engineering', heavily taxing new developments, and giving tax breaks to inner-city and multiple housing development. Huge tax breaks if they are 'ecologically friendly', etc.

[Black Dog]

How to fight sprawl? I think that making new developments on the edges of town reflect the cost of providing services out there is one way. I think that also providing tax incentives for developers to better utilize land within the city would make sense, not just from an environmental point of view, but also just plain economic sense. I am always a little perplexed when I see an empty lot or barely-used strip mall in what should be a valuable location. I think that the way to influence peoples' behavior is through their wallets, and the city has the power to direct how development occurs using taxation and other financial measures.

I don't even think subsidies and tax breaks are necessary. Just make it so that ifIf Landrex or whoever wants to rip up prime farmland or pristine wilderness for some shitty stucco housing project, they must pay the full costs of servicing their projects (roads, sewers and other infrastructure).

Problem is, there's a distinct lack of political will in most communities to stand up to developers. Anyone who does is usually tarred with the "anti-growth" brush, a label that is like kryptonite to local government officials.

[B. Max]

When the newest world pandemtic comes calling that they say is coming. The tighter they're packed in the easier it will be to racken and stackem. I would never live in the city again even as it is now, never mind if get them packed into something that resembles a Bombay slum.

[feloniusteabag]

Dear B. Max,

When the newest world pandemtic comes calling that they say is coming.

You'd better hope the 'next big one' doesn't target the illiterate. Otherwise, one must weigh the pros and cons of being a hermit.

[Riverwind]

The International Airport isn't going to be "out in the middle of nowhere" for much longer.

At which point the people who knowingly moved next door to an airport will complain about the noise and demand that it shutdown or at least severly curtail its operations....

[August1991]

Sprawl is the sludge you get when you mix greedy developers and short-sighted government together.

I agree. To be more precise, sprawl is what happens when local politicians introduce zoning regulations, and then local developers get involved in the game. I have always found strange that North American cities have tall skyscrapers. The explanation is that it is easier to build up than it is to build out because of zoning.

I have often told European tourists to skip North American cities because none hold any interest, certainly compared to North America's natural wonders. Manhattan might be an exception.

IMV, there is no reason why every city could not be like, say, Paris or Prague.

If it's any consolation, Soviet planners made even a bigger mess of things than our developers/aldermen. I recall standing in Ufa, a city in western Siberia, and thinking that it was an absolute sin what was done to such a beautiful place. Pre-revolutionary Ufa clearly had charm.

[BHS]

How to fight sprawl? I think that making new developments on the edges of town reflect the cost of providing services out there is one way. I think that also providing tax incentives for developers to better utilize land within the city would make sense, not just from an environmental point of view, but also just plain economic sense. I am always a little perplexed when I see an empty lot or barely-used strip mall in what should be a valuable location. I think that the way to influence peoples' behavior is through their wallets, and the city has the power to direct how development occurs using taxation and other financial measures.

I don't even think subsidies and tax breaks are necessary. Just make it so that ifIf Landrex or whoever wants to rip up prime farmland or pristine wilderness for some shitty stucco housing project, they must pay the full costs of servicing their projects (roads, sewers and other infrastructure).

Problem is, there's a distinct lack of political will in most communities to stand up to developers. Anyone who does is usually tarred with the "anti-growth" brush, a label that is like kryptonite to local government officials.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm guessing you don't live in Southern Ontario. There hasn't been "pristine wilderness" here in 100 years. An interesting point to add: all that prime farmland was once pristine wilderness. I guess having a private backyard isn't as important as having fields of weeds when the farrming becomes commerically unviable.

[Black Dog]

When the newest world pandemtic comes calling that they say is coming. The tighter they're packed in the easier it will be to racken and stackem. I would never live in the city again even as it is now, never mind if get them packed into something that resembles a Bombay slum.

You think living in "Lakeside Estates" or "Ye Olde Towneship" will make a difference? Please. Lamest. Defence. ever.

I'm guessing you don't live in Southern Ontario. There hasn't been "pristine wilderness" here in 100 years. An interesting point to add: all that prime farmland was once pristine wilderness. I guess having a private backyard isn't as important as having fields of weeds when the farrming becomes commerically unviable.

I was referring to Edmonton, where both me and kimmy, live. Here in Alberta, some of the most productive farmland in the province, as well as pristine natural areas (lke the Little Mountain natural area), are being gobbled up by subdivisions.

[B. Max]

Dear B. Max,

When the newest world pandemtic comes calling that they say is coming.

You'd better hope the 'next big one' doesn't target the illiterate. Otherwise, one must weigh the pros and cons of being a hermit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ooops, i stand corrected. Howd that get in there.

[Toro]

What bugs me about the 'burbs is that everything looks the same. Its really, really boring.

There's a movement towards building more self-contained suburbs, back to the back-alleys and straighter streets.

[B. Max]

When the newest world pandemtic comes calling that they say is coming. The tighter they're packed in the easier it will be to racken and stackem. I would never live in the city again even as it is now, never mind if get them packed into something that resembles a Bombay slum.

You think living in "Lakeside Estates" or "Ye Olde Towneship" will make a difference? Please. Lamest. Defence. ever.

Yeah it will make a big difference, but don't let me stop you from living in one of those bird houses. When the plague hit london those who left the city were not infected.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Black Dog]

Yeah it will make a big difference, but don't let me stop you from living in one of those bird houses. When the plague hit london those who left the city were not infected.

Uhm..need I remind you that the majority of people who live in the burbs tend to commute to and from urban centres on a daily basis? In the event of a pandemic, they won't be the only one's commutting to the suburbs.

[B. Max]

Yeah it will make a big difference, but don't let me stop you from living in one of those bird houses. When the plague hit london those who left the city were not infected.

Uhm..need I remind you that the majority of people who live in the burbs tend to commute to and from urban centres on a daily basis? In the event of a pandemic, they won't be the only one's commutting to the suburbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It won't be business as usual in a pandemic.

[Black Dog]

Yeah it will make a big difference, but don't let me stop you from living in one of those bird houses. When the plague hit london those who left the city were not infected.

Uhm..need I remind you that the majority of people who live in the burbs tend to commute to and from urban centres on a daily basis? In the event of a pandemic, they won't be the only one's commutting to the suburbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It won't be business as usual in a pandemic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No but the thing aboput pandemics is they spread fast. Any lag between the start of the pandemic and the realization that one is inprogress could be devestating.

In any case, the real costs of sprawl (health, social and environmental) far outweigh any benefit derived from a pandemic scenario.

[B. Max]

Yeah it will make a big difference, but don't let me stop you from living in one of those bird houses. When the plague hit london those who left the city were not infected.

Uhm..need I remind you that the majority of people who live in the burbs tend to commute to and from urban centres on a daily basis? In the event of a pandemic, they won't be the only one's commutting to the suburbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It won't be business as usual in a pandemic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No but the thing aboput pandemics is they spread fast. Any lag between the start of the pandemic and the realization that one is inprogress could be devestating.

In any case, the real costs of sprawl (health, social and environmental) far outweigh any benefit derived from a pandemic scenario.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What possible benefit could there be from a pandemic, and what cost is their to growth.

There will most likely be much warning of a pandemic because it won't be this country that it will start in, just as they have never started in this country in the past.

It will be brought here through this countries sievigration policies.

http://www.canadafirst.net/immi-kill/index.html

[Black Dog]

What possible benefit could there be from a pandemic, and what cost is their to growth.

The costs of sprawl model growth are huge: decaying urban centres, continued overreliance on fossil fuels and the resulting pollution (and terrorism) etc.

Are you aware that you're relying on white supremcist web sites for info?

[B. Max]

What possible benefit could there be from a pandemic, and what cost is their to growth.

The costs of sprawl model growth are huge: decaying urban centres, continued overreliance on fossil fuels and the resulting pollution (and terrorism) etc.

Are you aware that you're relying on white supremcist web sites for info?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are no such costs. That is living. The alternative would be just an existance. I'm quite aware that when confronted with the facts that the left like to to play the race card.

[Black Dog]

There are no such costs. That is living. The alternative would be just an existance

Your barely making sense now. "Living" has costs associated with it. I thought you right-wingers were aware of that, given the oft-repeated mantra that "nothing is free".

I'm quite aware that when confronted with the facts that the left like to to play the race card.

I am aware when confronted with a white supremicist web site to call it what it is.

[kimmy]

When SARS first became big news, I was visiting my dad's family farm, situated between the Buffalo Head Hills and Caribou Mountains in the far north of this province-- far more isolated than any suburb, gated community, or subdivision.

As we watched the newscasts, with their warnings about travel to Asia, the impact of the disease on cities with large Asian communities, and so on, my uncle mused that maybe living in the middle of nowhere wasn't so bad after all. My aunt replied that her co-worker's daughter Tara had just returned from 6 months of teaching english in China. The point being: even sitting in my aunt's kitchen, 800km from Edmonton or any other city with any appreciable Asian community, I was just 3 degrees of separation from a prime carrier candidate for SARS: Tara ----> her mom ----> my aunt ----> me.

Really, where are you going to go where you can be sure that nobody you come into contact with has been in contact with somebody else who might have been at risk in some way? You'd have to live like a paranoid survivalist to be sure. I get the impression that some people would be happier that way.

-k

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

I am aware when confronted with a white supremicist web site to call it what it is.

No shit, that website is revolting. If the left is accused of 'playing the race card', at least we welcome 'spades' in our deck. Those that reference sites like that haven't got a full deck.

[B. Max]

Dear Black Dog,

I am aware when confronted with a white supremicist web site to call it what it is.

No shit, that website is revolting. If the left is accused of 'playing the race card', at least we welcome 'spades' in our deck. Those that reference sites like that haven't got a full deck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess anything that flies in the face of leftwing ideology is revolting. Most especially documented facts.

[B. Max]

There are no such costs. That is living. The alternative would be just an existance

Your barely making sense now. "Living" has costs associated with it. I thought you right-wingers were aware of that, given the oft-repeated mantra that "nothing is free".

I'm quite aware that when confronted with the facts that the left like to to play the race card.

I am aware when confronted with a white supremicist web site to call it what it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No you simply wish to ignor the facts.