Hurricane Bush

[August1991]

More Americans were likely killed, more infrastructure destroyed, more costs incurred by this diaster than by almost any amount of terrorist attacks. Yet despite the obvious need of protection the Bush administration did nothing. Criminal negligence which will cost every American - and not just the poor blacks of New Orleans.

I think only a non-American would blame the President for apparent inaction in some crisis. If some disaster befell Vancouver, would not people look first to the provincial government? In the case of SARS and the Ice Storm, people looked at the local government and the province.

Disasters are bad enough when they are not foreseen, when nothing can be done. But I find it most infuriating when disasters were utterly predictable, and could easily have been mitigated or avoided if only those in charge were paying attention. That is the case with New Orleans.

Huh?

What exactly is the prediction?

The prediction is for a magnitude 6.4 or greater earthquake to occur between January 5 and September 5, 2004, within a 12,440 sq. miles area of southern California that includes portions of the eastern Mojave Desert, Coachella Valley, Imperial Valley (San Bernardino, Riverside and Imperial Counties) and eastern San Diego County.

US Government Earthquake Service

It is easy with hindsight to say that this or that should have been done. The quote above is a warning about a potential earthquake in California. Is the government to raise taxes and spend resources on every potential disaster? If an earthquake devastates Los Angeles, will that be Bush's fault too?

People were told on numerous occasions to leave New Orleans. The highways were changed to be one direction only. Am I wrong to believe that individuals should be responsible for their own welfare?

[Toro]

Perhaps, but it is New Orleans which was the main disaster area, a city which was 2/3rds Black and solidly Democrat. And it is the dykes and levees of New Orleans, along with the outlying islands, which might have made a huge difference in the survival of the city had they been properly attended to.

I agree. But that has nothing to do with race. Hurricane Ivan devastated parts of the Florida Panhandle. They vote solidly Republican from Panacea to Pensacola. Hurricane Charlie ripped through the state from Port Charlotte to Daytona. More white Republicans. White people died. It has nothing to do with race. To say they're negligent because they cut spending is one thing. To say that they did so because they're black is another. That is a scurrilous charge and there is absolutely nothing to back it up.

[August1991]

I'm no Bush fan but would the Democrats have done any better. I have my doubts. What I cannot comprehend is that if the US is so prepared for a security attack from al Quaeda how come they have botched their response to this NO crisis so badly? I think we should scrap all this security protection nonsense and the billions of costs that go with it.

And if al-Qaeda attacked again (they did in London), what would people say? As it is, many are blaming Bush because he spent the money the "wrong way".

I'm no Bush fan either, really. I don't think the invasion of Iraq was right and I thought his behaviour on the morning of 11 Sep 2001 was not that of a leader.

But I agree that Kerry would have probably been no different.

There is so much spin going on now that I hesitate to form an opinion. I notice that most of the sensational reports come from news services far away from the US or typically anti-Bush.

Nevertheless, I have known for a long time that too many people trust government blindly while the ability of government to solve problems is limited.

The Left has been criticised because it too often compares a socialist ideal world to a capitalist real world. The socialist ideal requires an omniscient, omnipotent government. Real governments aren't like that.

I have no doubt the US military will restore order in New Orleans, and people will be provided for. But we are foolish if we trust governments like children trust their parents.

[BHS]

I have been wondering how it is that they can get a session of Congress overnight to keep a brain-dead cripple on life-support, but it takes 3 days to get Congress into session to address the biggest disaster in the nation's history.

-k

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent post. Kinda shows the twisted mentality of the Bush administration.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Congress isn't the Bush adminstration.

[mirror]

The Republicans have controlled the Congress and the Administration since 2000, and had time to have fixed the levees. They choose NOT to repair them and now NO is paying the price. The Republicans will pay a heavy price politically in the 2006 Congressional elections (1/3 of Senate and the entire House of Representatives).

The big disconnect on New Orleans

[Toro]

I think the Republicans were poised for losses in 2006 anyways - that's assuming the Democrats are competent to take them, which they aren't necessarily. I think Katrina will make it more likely the GOP will lose seats. Whether or not they'll lose control of the House remains to be seen. Its doubtful they'll lose control of the Senate.

[Montgomery Burns]

Argus:

Disasters are bad enough when they are not foreseen, when nothing can be done. But I find it most infuriating when disasters were utterly predictable, and could easily have been mitigated or avoided if only those in charge were paying attention. That is the case with New Orleans.

Politicians can be notoriously short-sighted and parochial, and never has that case been better displayed than in the person of George W Bush Jr and his administration.

Blame Bush!

The disaster at New Orleans was long-predicted. It was only a matter of time. What needed to be done to mitigate or eliminate the damage was repair of the barrier islands, which would have absorbed some of the flood surge, and upgrading and repairing of the city's dikes. Neither was done. Years of pleading fell on deaf ears. Funding for flood control and disaster mitigation was slashed brutally in succesive federal budgets. Money for barrier restoration never came. Money for upkeep and repair, let alone expansion of the dike systems was actually cut, and heavily cut by the Bush administration. One long section of the dike had, over the years, sunk by 4 feet, for example.

Argus forgot to mention the fact that this project was initially sunk in 1977 by environmentalist lawsuits. And that nothing has been seriously done since then by any administration. It is a 25 year project, and had the work begun in the presidency of Jimmy Carter, its possible it would have been completed in time for Katrina. But no: it's Bush's fault.

This is where parochialism and probably racism turn into outright pig-ignorant stupidity. I can see Bush sitting around with his southern friends and saying, in effect, "There ain't nothin' in New Orleans but niggers and nigger lovers", to a round of appreciative chuckles. "An all of `em vote Democrat. I ain't wasting our money on them."

What loathsome statements. Shame on you.

How much money is this going to cost, now? How much disruption to the economy just due to the increase in gas prices? How many tens and hundreds of billions will now be required to rebuild the city of New Orleans?

Bush caused this hurricane. If only he had signed Kyoto.

In addition to the lack of funding for the dikes, FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was allowed to run down, its budget cut, put in charge of totally inexperienced political appointees (Ie, his campaign manager) who hadn't a clue or a care about emergency response. There were all sorts of things which were supposed to be done in the event of a possible New Orleans flood, like the pre-positioning of ships, equipment and military teams. In this case, even though there were strong suspicions well before Katrina hit, that this would cause a huge disaster, nothing was done. Rescue ships are only now leaving port, five days later, and it's obvious that nothing was pre-positioned, and no one of any authority with any organization was put in place to manage the oncoming disaster.

FYI, it is the local and state authorities who are in charge of looking after NO and the state. Why do so many people these days sit on their hands and look to the almighty federal govt to care for them? What ever happened to personal responsibility?

More Americans were likely killed, more infrastructure destroyed, more costs incurred by this diaster than by almost any amount of terrorist attacks. Yet despite the obvious need of protection the Bush administration did nothing. Criminal negligence which will cost every American - and not just the poor blacks of New Orleans.

Again, this is the responsiblilty of local and state authorities.

[Argus]

More Americans were likely killed, more infrastructure destroyed, more costs incurred by this diaster than by almost any amount of terrorist attacks. Yet despite the obvious need of protection the Bush administration did nothing. Criminal negligence which will cost every American - and not just the poor blacks of New Orleans.

I think only a non-American would blame the President for apparent inaction in some crisis. If some disaster befell Vancouver, would not people look first to the provincial government? In the case of SARS and the Ice Storm, people looked at the local government and the province.

That's crap, August. Upgrading those dykes and levees is a multi-billion dollar, long-term task which can only really be undertaken by the corps of engineers, and was their responsibility for decades. Louisiana is one of the poorest states in the union, and Mississippi IS the poorest state in the union. Nevertheless, out of the 12 biggest ports in America 5 are in Louisiana. It is very much in the national interest to make sure the Gulf Coast is protected. And when you hear about FEMA being gutted and the money for upgrading and repairing dykes being slashed to the bone year after year you cannot possibly wonder at why people are blaming Bush.

Disasters are bad enough when they are not foreseen, when nothing can be done. But I find it most infuriating when disasters were utterly predictable, and could easily have been mitigated or avoided if only those in charge were paying attention. That is the case with New Orleans.

Huh?

What exactly is the prediction?

Gee, August, that the dykes would fail in more than a category 3 hurricane - on the Gulf Coast, which is prime hurricane territory. Year after year New Orleans has dodged bullets as big storms swept just past them. It was only a matter of time before one hit directly - and this one didn't even hit directly, it edged past to the west. If the dykes and levees had bene properly maintained the flood might never have happened.

It is easy with hindsight to say that this or that should have been done.

Don't give me that! This was easily, easily predictable to anyone who didn't have their head stuffed up their rectal canal. :angry: You have one of your most important cities in prime hurricane country with levees which can't withstand more than a category 3 storm!? And you do little or nothing about i!? Give me a break!

The quote above is a warning about a potential earthquake in California.  Is the government to raise taxes and spend resources on every potential disaster?  If an earthquake devastates Los Angeles, will that be Bush's fault too?

Uh, yes! If Bush weakened seismic monitoring, slashed funding for emergency preparedeness to the bone, weakened construction rules and regulations, then yeah, you could reasonable blame Bush, not for the earthquake, but for the consequences. No one is blaming Bush because a hurricane hit. We're blaming Bush and his idiot government for not having shorn up the very, very obviously inadequate dyike and levee system.

People were told on numerous occasions to leave New Orleans.  The highways were changed to be one direction only.  Am I wrong to believe that individuals should be responsible for their own welfare?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you're poor, and in the American underclass, which means you've probably rarely, if ever even been outside your neighborhood, then you're going to need more than radio warnings to leave the city. Like, uh, buses, maybe? Like a place to go, maybe? You know, I saw the idiot Republican governor of Mississippi making much the same statement on TV, looking smug, fat and content, like all Republicans seem to these days. A lawyer, son of a lawyer, probably never met a poor person, he probably wonders why they didn't just call their limos and breeze down the highway to the Hilton in Nashville or something. FEMA ran an exercise just last year and it pointed out pretty damned clearly that without an organized evacuation involving buses and evacuation centres a hundred thousand poor, elderly and sick would be left behind. Because they've got nowhere to go and no way to get there. What was done? Nothing. :angry:

[Argus]

Perhaps, but it is New Orleans which was the main disaster area, a city which was 2/3rds Black and solidly Democrat. And it is the dykes and levees of New Orleans, along with the outlying islands, which might have made a huge difference in the survival of the city had they been properly attended to.

I agree. But that has nothing to do with race. Hurricane Ivan devastated parts of the Florida Panhandle. They vote solidly Republican from Panacea to Pensacola. Hurricane Charlie ripped through the state from Port Charlotte to Daytona. More white Republicans. White people died. It has nothing to do with race. To say they're negligent because they cut spending is one thing. To say that they did so because they're black is another. That is a scurrilous charge and there is absolutely nothing to back it up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hurricanes happen. And in most places you can't do a lot more than make sure the building codes are up to par. This hurricane did a lot of damage, but it didn't destroy New Orleans. The hurricane was over, the city not badly damaged. Then the levees broke. Water washed over the top of one, ate away at the foundations behind, and the levee collapsed. The Bush administration slashed tens of millions from upgrading and mainteance on those levees, some of which had sunk 4 feet in places. Why? At the same time it approved $250 million to build a bridge in Alaska to an uninhabited island. Why? Because it was the pet project of some senator.

So you tell me why those levees were not properly maintained, Toro. They sure as hell had the money to do it. They sure as hell knew they were inadequate. Was it racism and republican arrogance and contempt for a poor democratic district, or criminal negligence? It had to be one or the other. There is no third option.

[Argus]

I'm no Bush fan either, really.  I don't think the invasion of Iraq was right and I thought his behaviour on the morning of 11 Sep 2001 was not that of a leader.

But I agree that Kerry would have probably been no different.

Do you think Kerry and the Democrats, who rely so much on the poor and black voters would have slashed funding to upgrade and repair the dikes and levees of New Orleans?

[Montgomery Burns]

mirror:

It is obvious to all those except the totally blind that Bush's presidency has been an unmitigated disaster from stealing an election...

No, it was Gore who tried to steal the election. And only mirror and ilk would consider overethrowing 2 dictatorships, liberating 50 million people, and having free elections in Iraq and Afghanistan an "unmitigated disaster".

... to creating an illegal war...

It was NOT an illegal war. Repeating the leftwing lying mantra does not make enforcing a broken ceasefire "illegal."

... to not properly protecting Americans at home from the threat of natural disasters...

Apparently you are unaware that it is the job of local and state authorities to protect the state.

... and to not properly rescuing the stranded people. I mean, come on, how long ago did we all know the NO was going to be in Katrina's path.

Again, the local and state authorities knew this, but did very little. Why weren't those hundreds of buses, now underwater, used to shuttle people out of town? The mayor did nothing, and now he is wailing at Bush. Give me a break!

[Argus]

Politicians can be notoriously short-sighted and parochial, and never has that case been better displayed than in the person of George W Bush Jr and his administration.

Blame Bush!

I would rather blame a man for his obvious stupidity and lack of leadership than reflexively defend him because he calls himself a conservative(but isn't), and because you apparently believe you're one.

The disaster at New Orleans was long-predicted. It was only a matter of time. What needed to be done to mitigate or eliminate the damage was repair of the barrier islands, which would have absorbed some of the flood surge, and upgrading and repairing of the city's dikes. Neither was done. Years of pleading fell on deaf ears. Funding for flood control and disaster mitigation was slashed brutally in succesive federal budgets. Money for barrier restoration never came. Money for upkeep and repair, let alone expansion of the dike systems was actually cut, and heavily cut by the Bush administration. One long section of the dike had, over the years, sunk by 4 feet, for example.

Argus forgot to mention the fact that this project was initially sunk in 1977 by environmentalist lawsuits. And that nothing has been seriously done since then by any administration. It is a 25 year project, and had the work begun in the presidency of Jimmy Carter, its possible it would have been completed in time for Katrina. But no: it's Bush's fault.

Oh yes, blame the environmentalists! Dirty little liberals that they are! It's not Bush's fault! The environmentalists made him slash funding to upgrade the levees and dikes! As for the barrier islands, hasn't Bush been ignoring environmentalists and selling the outlying lands to rich men for development rather than buying it back as a flood control plane as uh, the environmentalists have been calling for?

This is where parochialism and probably racism turn into outright pig-ignorant stupidity. I can see Bush sitting around with his southern friends and saying, in effect, "There ain't nothin' in New Orleans but niggers and nigger lovers", to a round of appreciative chuckles. "An all of `em vote Democrat. I ain't wasting our money on them."

What loathsome statements. Shame on you.

Hey, I didn't just kill thousands of people because of pig ignorance. :angry:

Nor am I defending the man who did. How loathsome of you.

How much money is this going to cost, now? How much disruption to the economy just due to the increase in gas prices? How many tens and hundreds of billions will now be required to rebuild the city of New Orleans?

Bush caused this hurricane. If only he had signed Kyoto.

You think that smartass answer is any kind of intelligent reply?

In addition to the lack of funding for the dikes, FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was allowed to run down, its budget cut, put in charge of totally inexperienced political appointees (Ie, his campaign manager) who hadn't a clue or a care about emergency response. There were all sorts of things which were supposed to be done in the event of a possible New Orleans flood, like the pre-positioning of ships, equipment and military teams. In this case, even though there were strong suspicions well before Katrina hit, that this would cause a huge disaster, nothing was done. Rescue ships are only now leaving port, five days later, and it's obvious that nothing was pre-positioned, and no one of any authority with any organization was put in place to manage the oncoming disaster.

FYI, it is the local and state authorities who are in charge of looking after NO and the state.

Crap. Not on this scale, not when they're among the poorest cities and states in America, not when the national interest is so much at stake. Oh you can blame the state and city to some degree. Certainly. But it was FEMA which was primarily responsible, and the White House which slashed funding to upgrade and repair the dikes. And no matter how much you whine you aren't going to wiggle away from that one.

[Montgomery Burns]

Argus:

If you're poor, and in the American underclass, which means you've probably rarely, if ever even been outside your neighborhood, then you're going to need more than radio warnings to leave the city. Like, uh, buses, maybe?

You mean these buses?

Why didn't Mayor Nagin, a Democrat, use these buses to let the poor evacuate NO? This smirking bastard is responsible for these deaths. He failed to protect the citizens of NO through his inaction.

And that goes for Louisiana's Governor Democrat Kathleen Blanco.

Once again, the left shows their utter disdain for their fellow humans.

Then they have the bloody gall to bitch.

If they had an ounce of honor in their corrupt, incompetent bodies, they wouldn’t be busy blaming everybody else right now. But then again, if they’d had even the most passing of familiarities with the concepts of honor and responsibility, they wouldn’t have a problem today.

Scumbags. :angry:

[kimmy]

Those of us who have been on this board for a while know that Argus is usually as big a skeptic as you'll ever find when charges of racism are thrown about. For him to be the one making those charges, in this instance, leaves me no doubt as to his sincerity.

The argument about which level of government was responsible for upgrading the levees might betray some of our Canadian biases. eureka has argued many times that in Canada the provinces have more autonomy and more avenues of funding available than their counterparts in other federations. And even here, a capital investment of that magnitude would be done as a provincial-federal partnership, as with the upgrades of Toronto's waterfront. For the federal level to cut their funding of it from by such a large amount would have been undeniably a major blow to the project.

And if one really wishes to pursue the argument that the levees were a state and local responsibility, then let's stop and consider the national security angle. The number of casualties from this disaster will dwarf 9/11. The amount of damage and destruction will make 9/11 look like a fire at a hot-dog stand. On their best day, the terrorists didn't cause a fraction of this destruction. But beyond that, what is the national security impact to the United States? It has costing the billions of dollars to provide relief. It has resulted in civil unrest affecting thousands. America's already overtaxed armed forces are now being stretched to the limit. New Orleans was the entry-point for something like 1/4 of the US oil supply, and fuel prices have gone through the roof, and a large area of the country is now, I hear, being asked to ration fuel. The long-term economic costs to America (and beyond) will be stratospheric. In summary, the destruction of New Orleans has been a national security disaster that has already had effects felt nation-wide and will have deep consequences for all Americans in the coming months and years.

To me, that sounds like something of interest to more than just state and local government.

And it sounds like warnings about the readiness of the levees and the impact of a major storm on New Orleans had been given for years, and, apparently, brushed aside. So it seems to me that this was not just predictable, but had been predicted.

-k

[Argus]

Argus:

If you're poor, and in the American underclass, which means you've probably rarely, if ever even been outside your neighborhood, then you're going to need more than radio warnings to leave the city. Like, uh, buses, maybe?

You mean these buses?

Why didn't Mayor Nagin, a Democrat, use these buses to let the poor evacuate NO? This smirking bastard is responsible for these deaths. He failed to protect the citizens of NO through his inaction.

And that goes for Louisiana's Governor Democrat Kathleen Blanco.

Once again, the left shows their utter disdain for their fellow humans.

Then they have the bloody gall to bitch.

Tell me something, does your city have a plan to evacuate its residents using school buses? Does it know where to send them to pick people up, where to take them? No? Evacuations of this nature are the responsibility of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. They are tasked to plan these things. They have the resources to carry them out. They ran a thorough exercise on just this possibility last year and did nothing.

Why didn't the mayor use the school buses? I don't know. I'm sure it will come out. By the time he ordered a mandatory evacuation, the day before the storm, who was left to drive them? Presumably all those school bus drivers, their bosses, even the mechanics to fuel them, had already left town in the earlier evacuation. No doubt it will come out in the investigations to follow.

I have already said that the city and state bear some of the responsibilty. But their resources are finite. These are very poor cities and states. It is the federal government which is responsible for flood protection and emergency response. And they have immense resources for that.

If they had an ounce of honor in their corrupt, incompetent bodies, they wouldn’t be busy blaming everybody else right now.  But then again, if they’d had even the most passing of familiarities with the concepts of honor and responsibility, they wouldn’t have a problem today.

Scumbags.   :angry:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're trying to make me laugh, right? After blithely excusing Bush of any blame - because he says he's a conservative - you're self-righteously bleating about the mayor and governor - because they're Democrats. You don't care about blame or who was responsible. It sounds to me like all you care about is who you think is ideologically pure enough - meaning conservative, because, apparently, you're under the illusion you're a conservative. Even though you don't appear to understand what the term even means.

Let me give you a hint: A conservative uses two nails, even though one will probably do. A conservative is slow, methodical and careful. He doesn't take chances. He plans things. He doesn't make fast changes without knowing what the consequences will be. A conservative doesn't watch the water rise to a half inch below the top of his levee year after year and not do his best to raise the levee. If you want to turn this into a conservative purity thing then just what kind of a conservative was Bush?

[Toro]

So you tell me why those levees were not properly maintained, Toro. They sure as hell had the money to do it. They sure as hell knew they were inadequate. Was it racism and republican arrogance and contempt for a poor democratic district, or criminal negligence? It had to be one or the other. There is no third option.

I think the Republicans were poised for losses in 2006 anyways - that's assuming the Democrats are competent to take them, which they aren't necessarily.

Screaming at the top of one's lungs that racism caused this tragedy is exactly the type of incompetence that has plagued the Democrats this decade. I can certainly understand the people in New Orleans who have been stranded for five days saying so because its a highly emotional situation, and its not like the blacks have never faced racism. But if one thinks that the independent swing voter, who is predominantly white, who voted for George Bush, and who will decide the 2006 Congressional elections, is going to take kindly to being called a racist over this tragedy, one does a gross disservice to those whom the race-baiters claim to speaking for. Same with saying the only other choice is "criminal negligence". You cannot possibly be thinking straight, or be particularly intelligent, or be so ideologically blind if you narrow the this tragedy to solely a function of racism or criminal negligence.

[Argus]

So you tell me why those levees were not properly maintained, Toro. They sure as hell had the money to do it. They sure as hell knew they were inadequate. Was it racism and republican arrogance and contempt for a poor democratic district, or criminal negligence? It had to be one or the other. There is no third option.

I think the Republicans were poised for losses in 2006 anyways - that's assuming the Democrats are competent to take them, which they aren't necessarily.

Screaming at the top of one's lungs that racism caused this tragedy is exactly the type of incompetence that has plagued the Democrats this decade. I can certainly understand the people in New Orleans who have been stranded for five days saying so because its a highly emotional situation, and its not like the blacks have never faced racism. But if one thinks that the independent swing voter, who is predominantly white, who voted for George Bush, and who will decide the 2006 Congressional elections, is going to take kindly to being called a racist over this tragedy, one does a gross disservice to those whom the race-baiters claim to speaking for. Same with saying the only other choice is "criminal negligence". You cannot possibly be thinking straight, or be particularly intelligent, or be so ideologically blind if you narrow the this tragedy to solely a function of racism or criminal negligence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First, I didn't suggest everyone, or even anyone who voted for Bush was a racist, so you can stick that in your ear. Second, I asked you to tell me what else caused this utter negligence and you haven't offered anything up. Either the White House cut funding for flood control, ignoring an obvious, terrible danger, and then reacted with appalling slowness to the tragic results out of an arrogant contempt for a poor, black, democratic district or - or what? They were just unbelievably stupid and incomptent on every level? Which is it? Or do you have some other reason?

[Toro]

First, I didn't suggest everyone, or even anyone who voted for Bush was a racist, so you can stick that in your ear.

Surely you cannot be serious.

This is where parochialism and probably racism turn into outright pig-ignorant stupidity. I can see Bush sitting around with his southern friends and saying, in effect, "There ain't nothin' in New Orleans but niggers and nigger lovers", to a round of appreciative chuckles. "An all of `em vote Democrat. I ain't wasting our money on them."

Do you have that much utter contempt for Republican voters? I guess we're all just a bunch of cotton-picking, inbred, banjo-playing, square-dancing, cousin-marrying, teeth-missing, grade-four educated yokels living here in the South. We can't see blatant racism in our leaders like you smart foreigners up there in Ottawa. (Oh, just to remind you, you are the one who brought this dispicable language onto this board.)

Second, I asked you to tell me what else caused this utter negligence and you haven't offered anything up. Either the White House cut funding for flood control, ignoring an obvious, terrible danger, and then reacted with appalling slowness to the tragic results out of an arrogant contempt for a poor, black, democratic district or - or what? They were just unbelievably stupid and incomptent on every level? Which is it? Or do you have some other reason?

Answer this question. What if this hurricane hit in 1999? How many billions and billions of dollars did Clinton spend to avoid this problem? And not only this problem, but how many billions and billions of dollars did the Clinton administration spend helping alleviate the inevitable suffering that will occur when the next big earthquake hits the west coast. Or how much money was spent on needed emergency response teams and shelters when a tornado inevitably rips through Oklahoma City? And on and on and on.

To say this disaster is solely the responsilibity of the Bush administration is laughable. Its the fault of the political process and the will of the American people. Does Bush hold responsibility? You bet. He's the President. Does Congress? Yes. Does the Louisiana governor? Yes. Does the Louisiana legislature? Yes. Does the mayor of New Orleans? Yes. Does the city of New Orleans? Yes. Does every other politician who once had an opportunity to increase spending to prevent this disaster? Yes. Like it or not Argus, the American people voted for this guy twice, and he promised to cut taxes. Sorry, I didn't hear any politician saying they'd raise taxes to spend more on natural disaster prevention.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm angry about this. Bush did cut money to the Army Core and he has to answer for it. Is it fair to blame Bush on the slow response? Possibly, I don't know. And neither, frankly, do you. There will be an investigation into the response to this disaster.

Finally, I don't know how many hurricanes you've lived through up there in Ottawa, but I'm right here in hurricane central in Florida, and I've gone through many. If the attitude in New Orleans is like the attitude around here - and I'm sure it is - though no doubt there are a lot of people who couldn't get out simply because they were poor and unable, there are also a lot of people who stuck around thinking they could ride it out. Some become inurred to the storms because they are a constant every year, aren't dramatically effected, and lulled into a false sense of security. Some are just stupid - my Canadian neighbor once told me he'd like to go to the shore to see one some day. And some have ridden out storms before thinking they can ride them out again. That doesn't alleviate the responsibility of the government, but many are dead, both inside and outside of New Orleans, because they had the means and chose not to leave.

[Toro]

And just so you know where I stand.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1001054151

[Ironside]

If Terrorists had blown up the levee, the Federal Government

would have been right there.... Rest assured!<---click there.

Viva la Bush!

[Montgomery Burns]

Argus:

Tell me something, does your city have a plan to evacuate its residents using school buses?

I would hope so. It is the mayor's job to protect the citizens of the city.

If each bus could hold just 60 people, NORTA's 364 buses had the capacity to take almost 22,000 peope out of harm's way per trip.

People are dying - perhaps by the thousands - because of Mayor Ray Nagin's failure to act - despite being warned for days.

Oh yes, blame the environmentalists! Dirty little liberals that they are! It's not Bush's fault!

The project was sunk because of lawsuits by liberal enviromentalists in 1977.

Blame Bush!

I would rather blame a man for his obvious stupidity...

Bush has two university degrees - one a Masters - from two Ivy League colleges. He's hardly stupid. That is why these clowns make out Karl Rove to be some kind of a super-duper evil genius; they can't admit that that "dumb chimp" outsmarts them time and time again.

Let me give you a hint: A conservative uses two nails, even though one will probably do. A conservative is slow, methodical and careful. He doesn't take chances. He plans things. He doesn't make fast changes without knowing what the consequences will be. A conservative doesn't watch the water rise to a half inch below the top of his levee year after year and not do his best to raise the levee.

Tell that to Louisiana's Democrat Governor Kathleen Blanco, and New Orlean's Democrat Mayor Ray Nagin.

Toro:

Do you have that much utter contempt for Republican voters? I guess we're all just a bunch of cotton-picking, inbred, banjo-playing, square-dancing, cousin-marrying, teeth-missing, grade-four educated yokels living here in the South.

Wear dey all too pore and stoopid to unnerstan’ an’ make dey own decishuns widdout de gaahdance of enlaahten’d libruls, dontcha no?”

[mirror]

Here is an excellent overview of what has happened so far, including some very relevant pre-Katrina background, which is going to be published tomorrow in the New York Times:

A Delicate Balance Is Undone in a Flash, and a Battered City Waits

For good local news coverage the New Orleans Times-Picayune is a good place to start. They have just resumed publishing today:

Link

Here is a series of their articles written in June, 2002

Washing Away

[mirror]

It's quite clear that President Bush is to blame.

Even the conservative press is cutting him loose, as they eye their reduced chances in the 2006 Congressional elections:

Why the Levee Broke

[mirror]

Criticism of Bush mounts as more than 10,000 feared dead

Finally it is becoming crystal clear to all Americans what kind of president they have elected to the White House.

[Argus]

First, I didn't suggest everyone, or even anyone who voted for Bush was a racist, so you can stick that in your ear.

Surely you cannot be serious.

This is where parochialism and probably racism turn into outright pig-ignorant stupidity. I can see Bush sitting around with his southern friends and saying, in effect, "There ain't nothin' in New Orleans but niggers and nigger lovers", to a round of appreciative chuckles. "An all of `em vote Democrat. I ain't wasting our money on them."

And? And? Where in that does it say everyone who votes Republican is a racist?

Do you have that much utter contempt for Republican voters?  I guess we're all just a bunch of cotton-picking, inbred, banjo-playing, square-dancing, cousin-marrying, teeth-missing, grade-four educated yokels living here in the South. We can't see blatant racism in our leaders like you smart foreigners up there in Ottawa.  (Oh, just to remind you, you are the one who brought this dispicable language onto this board.)

Well... kind of. I feel contempt for Liberal voters up here. For the same reason. Who would vote for a group which is so crooked, has so little vision, is so self involved, cares so little for the country and everyone in it, and has such bland, nothing leaders? I have never found anything _anything_ admirable in George Bush Junior. His aw-shucks act is similar to Jean Chretien's "little guy from Shawinigan" routine, and just as phony.

He's arrogant, hypocritical, has nothing in common with ordinary Americans, and his government is utterly corrupt and damaging to America. But too many Americans fall for slick advertising campaigns, and let themselves be moved to believe minor issues which affect few, are actually THE issues in a campaign to focus on. And then, of course, they lie about their positions on those.

Racist? I won't say all Republican voters are racist. I will say all racists vote Republican. And they find themselves quite at home in the party - which is why Blacks don't. The Republican party is the party of the religious right, of big business, of corporate America, big oil, and the country club set. Anyone else who votes Republican is IMHO, voting against their own best interests. I have been a fairly close observer of American politics for some time and it's clear to me that the above groups are the entirety of the Republican constituency. Everyone else is just a sheep to be fleeced.

Second, I asked you to tell me what else caused this utter negligence and you haven't offered anything up. Either the White House cut funding for flood control, ignoring an obvious, terrible danger, and then reacted with appalling slowness to the tragic results out of an arrogant contempt for a poor, black, democratic district or - or what? They were just unbelievably stupid and incomptent on every level? Which is it? Or do you have some other reason?

Answer this question. What if this hurricane hit in 1999? How many billions and billions of dollars did Clinton spend to avoid this problem?

And how is that relevent? If Clinton ignored it too does that absolve Bush of guilt? I don't know what Clinton did or didn't do. I know he didn't do enough, obviously. Did he actually cut back on flood control measures? I don't know. Do you? Did the Republican controlled Congress impede him? I don't know. Do you?

I do know that George Bush slashed funding for the levees. Suppose you tell me why.

To say this disaster is solely the responsilibity of the Bush administration is laughable.

Nice straw man. Who has said this is only Bush's responsibility? You can blame the state, to some extent, and you can certainly blame the Congress (republican controlled for how many years now?). But there's this old-fashioned notion which one of your previous folksy president's believed in and had a plaque on his desk to demonstrate. I bet you know the one I'm thinking of.

Its the fault of the political process and the will of the American people.

The will of the American people? Were the American people ever consulted? Did anyone ever explain the situation to the American people and ask them what should be done? Do you think they would have said "Ah, forget about it. Just spend the money on bridges to uninhabited islands in Alaksa instead." If the American people as a mass had known of the danger and been asked what to do they'd have demanded New Orleans be made safe.

You can blame the political process, to an extent, but the process failed because of the people in it, and that has included a Republican controlled congress for the last decade

Like it or not Argus, the American people voted for this guy twice, and he promised to cut taxes.  Sorry, I didn't hear any politician saying they'd raise taxes to spend more on natural disaster prevention. 

Unfortunately, many politicians now strive to appeal to the most craven and selfish aspects of humanity in voters. And that certainly includes the Republican party over the last decade.