"Thy're far above average"

[Renegade]

The Toronto Star ran a feature today in their GTA section on the best of GTA high school graduating class. Of the 11 students they featured, eight were Asian. This doesn't seem to be an unusual phenomenon either in Canada or the US. Asian students are vastly overrepresented among top students at almost all levels.

Society has seemingly justified this to itself as cultural bias in Asian societies, but maybe its not. Could it be that there are differences in attributes (intelligence being one) among races which is not strictly due to environmental factors?

[Riverwind]

The Toronto Star ran a feature today in their GTA section on the best of GTA high school graduating class. Of the 11 students they featured, eight were Asian.  This doesn't seem to be an unusual phenomenon either in Canada or the US. Asian students are vastly overrepresented among top students at almost all levels.

Society has seemingly justified this to itself as cultural bias in Asian societies, but maybe its not. Could it be that there are differences in attributes (intelligence being one) among races which is not strictly due to environmental factors?

North American culture idolizes 'jocks' and sports and vilifies 'geeks' and academic achievement. This culture of underachievement is even more pronounced among some groups of blacks (inner city blacks for a lack of a better term). Asians on the other hand place a lot of importance on academic achievement. I think the cultural biases are more than sufficient to explain race differences in academic achievement.

[Renegade]

North American culture idolizes 'jocks' and sports and vilifies 'geeks' and academic achievement. This culture of underachievement is even more pronounced among some groups of blacks (inner city blacks for a lack of a better term). Asians on the other hand place a lot of importance on academic achievement. I think the cultural biases are more than sufficient to explain race differences in academic achievement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not as certain I can come to that conclusion as easily as you. Would you acknowledge that are differences in physical attributes between races which lead to different skill levels? If you acknowledge this, which is it much of a stretch to acknowledge that there may be differences in mental attributes as well?

[Guest Warwick Green]

Society has seemingly justified this to itself as cultural bias in Asian societies, but maybe its not. Could it be that there are differences in attributes (intelligence being one) among races which is not strictly due to environmental factors?

Would you acknowledge that are differences in physical attributes between races which lead to different skill levels? If you acknowledge this, which is it much of a stretch to acknowledge that there may be differences in mental attributes as well?

Some people have argued that Asians are more naturally intelligent than whites who in turn are more naturally intelligent than blacks. Phillip Rushton comes to mind. Of course many consider such "evidence" to be disguised racism. BTW, when my daughter graduated from college Asians who made up 5% of the student body took 50% of the academic achievement prizes.

[Riverwind]

I'm not as certain I can come to that conclusion as easily as you. Would you acknowledge that are differences in physical attributes between races which lead to different skill levels? If you acknowledge this, which is it much of a stretch to acknowledge that there may be differences in mental attributes as well?

Two points:

1) Genetic differences may exist (IQ is largely an inherited quality), however, variations between members of each group are so large that small differences in the average are not particularly relevant.

2) Even if you accept that genetic differences are a factor they are much less important than the social factors I noted. Asian parents receive admiration from their peers if their kids excel at school. Black parents receive admiration from their peers if their kids excel at sports. You don't have to have a degree in sociology to figure out how those incentives affect kids.

[Renegade]

1) Genetic differences may exist (IQ is largely an inherited quality), however, variations between members of each group are so large that small differences in the average are not particularly relevant.

I agree with you that variations are large between members of a group are large and for most of the population outweigh differences between groups, however when there are variations between groups, those differences are most prounounced at the extremes. Said another way, if Race A is on average "smarter" than Race B, then if you look at the elite "smartest" popluation, they will be extremely overrepresented by Race A.

2) Even if you accept that genetic differences are a factor they are much less important than the social factors I noted. Asian parents receive admiration from their peers if their kids excel at school. Black parents receive admiration from their peers if their kids excel at sports. You don't have to have a degree in sociology to figure out how those incentives affect kids.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Based upon what do you conclude that they are much less important than social factors? I agree with your generalizations about where Asian parents and Black parents place their focus, however I'm not sure it leads to the extremes in representation we have seen.

In Track and Field, virtually all the world-class elite athletes are black. This is not just a USA or Canada statement, but true of predominantly "white" countries such as France, and Britain. Are you saying it is simply because around the world black parents have decided it is important and have focused their kids on it?

[Renegade]

Some people have argued that Asians are more naturally intelligent than whites who in turn are more naturally intelligent than blacks.  Phillip Rushton comes to mind. Of course many consider such "evidence" to be disguised racism. BTW, when my daughter graduated from college Asians who made up 5% of the student body took 50% of the academic achievement prizes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I remember the whole controversy about Rushton's conclusions. The problem was that peoples' hypersensitivity to racism made them incapable of looking at his conclusions from a sientific and impartial perspective, and then judging whether he came to logical conclusions. His critics were quick to cry "racism" without really looking at Rushton's underlying evidence.

[Black Dog]

I remember the whole controversy about Rushton's conclusions. The problem was that peoples' hypersensitivity to racism made them incapable of looking at his conclusions from a sientific and impartial perspective, and then judging whether he came to logical conclusions. His critics were quick to cry "racism" without really looking at Rushton's underlying evidence.

His evidence IIRC, was blacks have big dicks and small brains, Asians small dicks and big brains. Whitey, we presume, was "just right".

As for Rushton being the victim of some over-sensetive PC backlash, I think the fact that he is now the hea dof the Pioneer Fund (an organization expressely devoted to supporting the "procreation of the white colonial stock" and to financing research into "problems of race betterment" and "problems of heredity and eugenics in the human race.") should settle that question.

[Rambler Man]

Native americans are most closely related to asians. Why do they have higher crime rates then whites? If Rushton's conclusions are accurate, then indians should on average do better in school and commit less crime then whites. Since they don't, that leads one to believe that other factors besides genetics help determine how people make choices.

While it seems certain that there are some genetic differences in race, I think that Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" explains the differences between the societies of Asians, Whites, and Blacks better then Rushton's work.

[Renegade]

I'm not about to defend Rushton or his conclusions. My point was that peoples sensitivities to any conclusion which might remotely smell like racism leads them to rush to critisism without really spending time to examine the evidence.

In any case if I remember his conclusions were based upon cranium size,its relationship to IQ, and differences in cranium size among races. See Brain size, IQ, and racial-group differences: Evidence from musculoskeletal traits

Criticism of Rushton's conclusions should be based upon the evidence he presented, not what he does now or which organization he heads.

[Riverwind]

I'm not about to defend Rushton or his conclusions. My point was that peoples sensitivities to any conclusion which might remotely smell like racism leads them to rush to critisism without really spending time to examine the evidence.

It is not acceptable to publish information about how to build a nuclear bomb or a biological weapon because there is a real fear that such information would be used by some people to harm others. The same fear exists with race based statistics. So the issue is not the correctness of the information but rather what you hope to achieve by making an issue out of them.

[Renegade]

It is not acceptable to publish information about how to build a nuclear bomb or a biological weapon because there is a real fear that such information would be used by some people to harm others. The same fear exists with race based statistics. So the issue is not the correctness of the information but rather what you hope to achieve by making an issue out of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So are you saying, let's not ask the question because we fear what the answer might be?

What do I hope to achieve? Nothing more than a better understanding of why things are the way they are.

[August1991]

Interesting thread.

It is not acceptable to publish information about how to build a nuclear bomb or a biological weapon because there is a real fear that such information would be used by some people to harm others. The same fear exists with race based statistics. So the issue is not the correctness of the information but rather what you hope to achieve by making an issue out of them.

And seemingly interesting argument.

I should think that if no-one has yet built a bomb in their backyard, it is not because of inaccessible information but rather the complexity of the task. It is one thing to advocate a crime and quite another to commit a crime.

Efforts to suppress free speech give the illusion of consent; they do not change people's minds. And worse, they close off discovery.

----

It is obvious that there are differences between people. Some of these differences are inherited and some of them are learned. Some people can hold a note and some sing off key. Some people are left-handed and some right-handed. Some people prefer rice and some people prefer bread.

We all discriminate in our choices, including our choices of friends, marriage partners, business partners.

There is nothing radical here and the idea that we should not discuss these differences strikes me as weird. We manifestly use the differences constantly in our daily choices.

If you tell me that, for example, Asians perform well on academic exams, I'm inclined to say, so what? People are different.

The issue, it seems to me, is that a civilized State should not discriminate along racial lines, for example.

[Slavik44]

Can someone tell me how dominant african countries are in the olympics? I'll tell you ethopia top african country 7 medals. I guess the first thing people will say is that clearly that is the power of money, or is it? Does money have the power to over rule genes? Is a rich white athlete better then a poor black athlete. Is there a reason why Afro-Americans and Afro-Europeans...are better then Africans? Is it the money or is it the genetics?

What do I mean, evolution, take two very different specimens from the same species and breed them generally their off-spring may be consider to have better genes, then two similar specimens fromt eh same species. Could genetics then be used to explain the dominance of African Americans in sport? Clearly Way back when alot of africans must have a white slave master in their blood lines, If Tohmas Jefferson did it, I am sure others did it as well.

How about selective importation, I might be being a little crude here, but are immigrants normally the poor dying starving people from third world country's? Or do we normally weed out the "genetic crap" other countries have to offer, allowing only the best Asains into our country. For instance if we had a debate contest and invited 970 random people from colleges across canada, and then went and selected only students with a 4.0 GPA from America...and found that 20 of our top 50 finishers came from America. Now does that mean anything? No because we expect that to happen...we selected the educated elite to compete agaisnt a random group of students. Perhaps we ahve a trivia contest and invite 999 random people from canada and ken jennings...statistically Ken Jennings has a 1/1000 chance of winning, realistically...he has already won. So when asains do well in North America is it because all asains are better and smarter, or because our immigration systems is designed to find Ken Jennings, not average Joe.

I am not try to be a rascist, I am not trying to be an ass, I am just wondering if perhaps we are not considering all options. If perhaps there is a ground between, its the culture, or its the genes...perhaps its in the history and perhaps its in the system of this world.

[Riverwind]

Can someone tell me how dominant african countries are in the olympics? I'll tell you ethopia top african country 7 medals.

It is actually more complicated: I believe people of east african decent dominate the long distance running events and people of west african decent dominate the short distance running events. Clearly there is a genetic factor at work just like there is a genetic factor in intelligence.

The problem is what people do with this information. When it comes to questions of genetics and intelligence we live in a society where people have justified some pretty abhorent things because of so-called 'genetic determinism'. Have we moved beyond those days and moved into an enlightened era where reasonable people can discuss such things without providing ammunition to the bigots in society? Maybe - maybe not. My feeling it is not worth the risk and we, as a society, are better off maintaining the fiction that intelligence and race are not connected.

[Renegade]

The problem is what people do with this information. When it comes to questions of genetics and intelligence we live in a society where people have justified some pretty abhorent things because of so-called 'genetic determinism'. Have we moved beyond those days and moved into an enlightened era where reasonable people can discuss such things without providing ammunition to the bigots in society? Maybe - maybe not. My feeling it is not worth the risk and we, as a society, are better off maintaining the fiction that intelligence and race are not connected.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spar, I very much disagree with your conclusion that we should not even have the discussion because there is a risk that bigots may be provided with ammunition. Bigots generally will draw conclusions with or without factual evidence to back up their conclusions.

If Darwin, had not studied and then published his work on the evolution of species, because of fear that it might explode myths on how the world was created, would we be better off?

[feloniusteabag]

One of the factors that seems to be overlooked here is environment. In China, etc. there is a huge population, and only the top few percent can go on to university. In North America, 70% marks can get one into almost any university, while in China one needs 90+%. Therefore, if one wishes to go to post-secondary school, you have to be the best of the best in a huge distribution curve, and your study habits must be equally excellent. To see asians in the top percentile in education in N America should be a surprise to no one. Their 'standards' are much higher, based largely on population factors.

Then again, I can't remember the last time a white guy won the 100m dash...probably back when 'blacks' weren't allowed to compete.

[Renegade]

One of the factors that seems to be overlooked here is environment. In China, etc. there is a huge population, and only the top few percent can go on to university. In North America, 70% marks can get one into almost any university, while in China one needs 90+%. Therefore, if one wishes to go to post-secondary school, you have to be the best of the best in a huge distribution curve, and your study habits must be equally excellent. To see asians in the top percentile in education in N America should be a surprise to no one. Their 'standards' are much higher, based largely on population factors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But in many of the cases in North America, where Aisians make up 25% or less of the population, they will still take more than 90% of the top positions. Your argument may make sense if only the elite of the Aisian world emmigrated to North America. While this may be true, it is far from certain.

[feloniusteabag]

Dear Renegade,

Your argument may make sense if only the elite of the Aisian world emmigrated to North America.

Not exactly, I am saying that the 'work ethic' is brought over, the mindset that striving to be in the top 5% is what is brought, (or ingrained) not the physical 'top 5%'.

[kimmy]

Asian parents receive admiration from their peers if their kids excel at school. Black parents receive admiration from their peers if their kids excel at sports.

...white parents receive admiration of their peers if their kids excel at X-Box...

In Track and Field, virtually all the world-class elite athletes are black. This is not just a USA or Canada statement, but true of predominantly "white" countries such as France, and Britain. Are you saying it is simply because around the world black parents have decided it is important and have focused their kids on it?

I have heard that some black populations have a lower leg geometry that makes the foot a more efficient lever in running but less suited to lifting, as well as genetic predisposition towards lower bodyfat and higher proportion of fast-twitch muscle-fibre. These might be examples of traits that were survival advantages in an environment where the easiest way to find your food is to hunt it cheetah-style: ambush and a short chase.

If tribes of African or Middle-Eastern peoples moved north into colder climates, then what happens?

-lighter skin becomes a survival advantage. Dark skin that protects from burning in hot sunny climates is not so good as we move north-- as we move north, we get less sunlight, and our skin makes less vitamin D. Dark pigments that block sunlight start to become a disadvantage as they reduce vitamin D production to unhealthy levels.

-fast-twitch muscle is great if you want powerful movement for a short period of time. It's not very good in situations where you need long-term activity, because it only stores enough energy for about 10 seconds of sustained activity. Slow twitch muscle fibre is not as powerful in short term movements, but has built in stores of fuel to work for a much longer period. It's easy to think of at least one activity in cold climates that makes a higher proportion of fast-twitch muscle a disadvantage: shivering. Cold weather likewise makes a lower body-fat percentage a disadvantage.

So, that's with physical differences... what about other things? Might northern climates have selected against dumb-guys in the past? I don't think it's out of the question... but humans are social animals. The dumbest guy in the tribe isn't left to his own devices, and he might not get "Darwinned" out of the gene-pool despite being dumb.

Native americans are most closely related to asians. Why do they have higher crime rates then whites? If Rushton's conclusions are accurate, then indians should on average do better in school and commit less crime then whites. Since they don't, that leads one to believe that other factors besides genetics help determine how people make choices.

and

Can someone tell me how dominant african countries are in the olympics? I'll tell you ethopia top african country 7 medals. I guess the first thing people will say is that clearly that is the power of money, or is it? Does money have the power to over rule genes? Is a rich white athlete better then a poor black athlete. Is there a reason why Afro-Americans and Afro-Europeans...are better then Africans? Is it the money or is it the genetics?

All the genetics in the world won't give you the ability, if you don't have adequate training and the opportunity to develop all that genetic potential.

What if Saudi Arabia had its own Einstein, but nobody ever knew it because she never went to school and wasn't allowed to speak? I doubt Einstein himself would have amounted to much if had grown up on an indian reservation in Canada. The environmental factors are just too depressing.

So when asains do well in North America is it because all asains are better and smarter, or because our immigration systems is designed to find Ken Jennings, not average Joe.

This strikes me as a very astute observation. We don't know whether Natural Selection has made asians, on average, smarter than caucasians, on average. However, it does seem likely that Artificial Selection has made the asians in Canada smarter than the average Canadian.

-k

[Guest eureka]

I suspect that the better results from Asians is limited to recent arrivals because there is selrction of only the best. That probably applied to "Whites" also in the past. With the inexorable process of regression to the Mean, older populations will have become just like the rest.

There many variables in sports; and, just as Kimmy implies, different sports favour different races through their genetic inheritances. There are sports, boxing is one, where dominance has passed from one group to another from the beginning. That is a cultural phenomenon and, mostly, to do with poverty.

[Renegade]

I doubt that the barriers we put in place in selecting immigrants is the only cause. I would guess that it probably due to multiple effects each compounding each other.

The issues as previously mentioned which I expect all play a factor, include genetics, cultural attitutde toward education, and immigration barriers which encourage only the 'elite' to immigrate to North America'

As an aside, here is a estimated breakdown of IQ by nation:

Country IQ estimate

Hong Kong (China) 107

South Korea 106

Japan 105

Taiwan (ROC) 104

Singapore 104

Austria 102

Germany 102

Italy 102

Netherlands 102

Sweden 101

Switzerland 101

Belgium 100

China (PRC) 100

New Zealand 100

United Kingdom 100

Hungary 99

Poland 99

Spain 99

Australia 98

Denmark 98

France 98

Norway 98

United States 98

Canada 97

Czech Republic 97

Finland 97

Argentina 96

Russia 96

Slovakia 96

Uruguay 96

Portugal 95

Slovenia 95

Israel 94

Romania 94

Bulgaria 93

Ireland 93

Greece 92

Malaysia 92

Thailand 91

Croatia 90

Peru 90

Turkey 90

Indonesia 89

Suriname 89

Colombia 88

Brazil 87

Iraq 87

Mexico 87

Samoa 87

Tonga 87

Lebanon 86

Philippines 86

Cuba 85

Morocco 85

Fiji 84

Iran 84

Marshall Islands 84

Puerto Rico 84

Egypt 83

India 81

Ecuador 80

Guatemala 79

Barbados 78

Nepal 78

Qatar 78

Zambia 77

Congo-Brazzaville 73

Uganda 73

Jamaica 72

Kenya 72

South Africa 72

Sudan 72

Tanzania 72

Ghana 71

Nigeria 67

Guinea 66

Zimbabwe 66

Congo-Kinshasa 65

Sierra Leone 64

Ethiopia 63

Equatorial Guinea 59

Is it a surprise that the top nations are all oriental?

[kimmy]

As an aside, here is a estimated breakdown of IQ by nation:

Where did you obtain these estimates, and how were they compiled?

I must say I'm having a difficult time believing this... and not because the top nations are Asians, but because it seems to indicate that the average citizen in a number of African countries is, apparently, mentally retarded. I mean, is this real? Is that on the bell curve? If the average Ethiopian has an IQ of 63, that would put alarge portion of the populace well into the range that western science considers to be a severe mental disability. I'm quite skeptical of these numbers, and I'd like to know where you obtained them.

-kimmy

[Renegade]

Sorry forgot to include the link: IQ and the Wealth of Nations

[Renegade]

An even better graph of Race-and-intelligence