Time for China to be Punished Economically

[Zeitgeist]

We are now seeing the real China in action: corrupt, petty, and underhanded.  We have learned today that China has been acquiring government secrets and private communications between government officials in the EU.  China has attempted to infiltrate government servers in the U.S., Canada, and the governments of many other allies.  Now that a Chinese company executive may be extradited for circumventing sanctions and defrauding banks to do so, the Chinese are detaining Canadian nationals without cause or due process, as a blatantly retaliatory measure.  The US, Canada, and EU countries have massive trade deficits with China.  While Chinese imports have made products cheap for consumers, there are many other low-cost jurisdictions that can manufacture both the dollar store trinkets and the higher tech hardware found in items like Iphones.  We don't have to buy manufactured goods from China.  It's time to place major trade restrictions on China and shut down companies such as Huawai that are closely intertwined with the Chinese government and represent serious security threats.

[Zeitgeist]

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-michael-kovrig-held-in-chinese-cell-with-lights-on-24-hours-a-day-source

[paxamericana]

This is old news, see my post on china ipo and intellectual property theft. The outrage is because they kidnapped a Canadian Citizen.... The most useful thing we did against china was put a 25 percent steel tariff on Canada...

Edited December 21, 2018 by paxamericana

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, paxamericana said:

This is old news, see my post on china ipo and intellectual property theft. The outrage is because they kidnapped a Canadian Citizen.... The most useful thing we did against china was put a 25 percent steel tariff on Canada...

It mostly hurt our steel makers.  Our counter tariffs hurt your steel makers.  The US exports more steel to Canada than the reverse.  Now that Canada has steel tariffs on China, there is no excuse for the US to have steel tariffs on Canada.  It’s very stupid. 

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, paxamericana said:

This is old news, see my post on china ipo and intellectual property theft. The outrage is because they kidnapped a Canadian Citizen.... The most useful thing we did against china was put a 25 percent steel tariff on Canada...

 

Good point.....Trump already confronted China on trade practices while Canada did nothing.   

[Zeitgeist]

54 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Good point.....Trump already confronted China on trade practices while Canada did nothing.   

Please explain why there are still steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada.  You can’t.  It’s hurt manufacturing on both sides of the border.  Idiots running the show in both countries. 

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Please explain why there are still steel and aluminum tariffs on Canada.  You can’t.  It’s hurt manufacturing on both sides of the border.  Idiots running the show in both countries. 

 

Already explained it to you before.....China uses Canada for dumping, transshipments, counterfeiting, etc.   Canada is just a small part of a much larger showdown.

Besides, Canada already imposed tariffs on U.S. exports (e.g. dairy).

Either way...Canada did nothing to confront China....but is now whining about detentions of Canadian nationals.    Too late.

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Already explained it to you before.....China uses Canada for dumping, transshipments, counterfeiting, etc.   Canada is just a small part of a much larger showdown.

Besides, Canada already imposed tariffs on U.S. exports (e.g. dairy).

Either way...Canada did nothing to confront China....but is now whining about detentions of Canadian nationals.    Too late.

 

It’s not too late to shut down anything, including USMCA.  Still don’t trust POTUS either. Thugs all. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not too late to shut down anything, including USMCA. 

 

Please do....USMCA didn't go far enough to stop many of the trade issues.

Mexico and Canada would still be far more dependent on the U.S. export market and capital investment.

[Iznogoud]

Dealing with China requires a united front.  Unfortunately, Trump's go it alone policy regarding China and his attacks on friendly nations have made that very difficult.  Ideally China should be confronted by the EU, the United States, and Canada working together, but with Trump's bull-in-a-china-shop diplomacy that is probably not possible until he is replaced.  That means waiting until 2021 at the earliest. 

[Argus]

6 minutes ago, Iznogoud said:

Dealing with China requires a united front.  Unfortunately, Trump's go it alone policy regarding China and his attacks on friendly nations have made that very difficult.

Trump has no clue how to deal with China (or anything) and Navarro is an idiot. Open confrontation will never get anything from them because giving in will lose them face. They'd rather just wait him out. And they have the patience to do so. You need to apply pressure quietly, in specific areas where it will hurt the most, while denying, with mock innocence, that you're targeting them at all.

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, Iznogoud said:

Dealing with China requires a united front.  Unfortunately, Trump's go it alone policy regarding China and his attacks on friendly nations have made that very difficult.  Ideally China should be confronted by the EU, the United States, and Canada working together, but with Trump's bull-in-a-china-shop diplomacy that is probably not possible until he is replaced.  That means waiting until 2021 at the earliest. 

 

Yeah, because Canada wields so much influence in the world.    Trump took on China long ago...Canada did not.

[Zeitgeist]

40 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yeah, because Canada wields so much influence in the world.    Trump took on China long ago...Canada did not.

Trump has done possibly irreparable damage to the US brand.  That’s a bigger issue that undercuts any trade wins. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Trump has done possibly irreparable damage to the US brand.  That’s a bigger issue that undercuts any trade wins. 

 

The U.S. still has more influence and "brand" than Canada...Canada is alone with Trudeau and sinking fast.  

Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do....and that means lots of "chaos" to disrupt the status quo.

Trump is leading on China...Trudeau is not and cannot...too weak.

[Iznogoud]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. still has more influence and "brand" than Canada...Canada is alone with Trudeau and sinking fast.  

Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do....and that means lots of "chaos" to disrupt the status quo.

Trump is leading on China...Trudeau is not and cannot...too weak.

It appears that you are placing the blame on the PM for a situation he did not create.  However, that said, it is Canada against China and as I said a united front is best.  Unfortunately, Canada has to rely on Trump and he is not known for helping anyone but himself. 

[bush_cheney2004]

54 minutes ago, Iznogoud said:

It appears that you are placing the blame on the PM for a situation he did not create.  However, that said, it is Canada against China and as I said a united front is best.  Unfortunately, Canada has to rely on Trump and he is not known for helping anyone but himself. 

 

Having to rely on Trump is not only pathetic, it confirms what many polled Canadians have already concluded...Trudeau is weak and not up to the task.

Trump engaged China on trade without any help from Trudeau.

Edited December 22, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[turningrite]

On 12/21/2018 at 7:22 PM, Iznogoud said:

Dealing with China requires a united front.  Unfortunately, Trump's go it alone policy regarding China and his attacks on friendly nations have made that very difficult.  Ideally China should be confronted by the EU, the United States, and Canada working together, but with Trump's bull-in-a-china-shop diplomacy that is probably not possible until he is replaced.  That means waiting until 2021 at the earliest. 

Ideally, the WTO regime needs to be reformed, however if that's not possible Western countries should withdraw from the WTO and form a new organization which others could join if they agree to the rules. China's ongoing "developing economy" status has rendered the WTO regime impractical. How can an economy that will soon be the world's largest be allowed to set its own rules and protect its own industries and markets while its major competitors can't do so? I don't think Trump understands much about economics but I think he does have a good read on the trade problem with China. A concerted Western effort to address the issue would I think have been more productive and useful. But if Trump can negotiate major concessions from China perhaps they will serve as a model for broader reforms and, ultimately, his approach might be faster. Our PM is hopeless and I doubt has any stomach for a trade battle with China, so let's see what Trump can do.

Edited December 26, 2018 by turningrite

[Zeitgeist]

On 12/22/2018 at 12:30 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Having to rely on Trump is not only pathetic, it confirms what many polled Canadians have already concluded...Trudeau is weak and not up to the task.

Trump engaged China on trade without any help from Trudeau.

Let’s not forget what happened here:  The US is leaning on its extradition pact with Canada to enforce a trade policy to which Canada and the EU don’t subscribe.  Rather than thanking Canada for sticking to its pact with the US, you’re blaming Canada.  

[bush_cheney2004]

44 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Let’s not forget what happened here:  The US is leaning on its extradition pact with Canada to enforce a trade policy to which Canada and the EU don’t subscribe.  Rather than thanking Canada for sticking to its pact with the US, you’re blaming Canada.  

 

Nope...Canada could have easily refused to arrest the Huawei CEO to protect it's own interests, just as it has done in the past.

Canada is a sovereign nation that is responsible for its own actions.

[Zeitgeist]

22 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nope...Canada could have easily refused to arrest the Huawei CEO to protect it's own interests, just as it has done in the past.

Canada is a sovereign nation that is responsible for its own actions.

We’ve respected a treaty with an ally.  Remember what it’s like to respect an ally?

[bush_cheney2004]

36 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

We’ve respected a treaty with an ally.  Remember what it’s like to respect an ally?

 

No, I remember when Canada has refused to extradite sex offenders to the United States.

Canada made a choice...now live with it.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, I remember when Canada has refused to extradite sex offenders to the United States.

Canada made a choice...now live with it.

I don’t remember this.  You need to provide details.  I’m sure there’s more to it than your cursory remarks suggest.  

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I don’t remember this.  You need to provide details.  I’m sure there’s more to it than your cursory remarks suggest.  

 

Seriously ?    OK...here ya go...two examples where Canada did not extradite at U.S. request....

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/florida-sex-offender-who-had-relations-with-16-year-old-granted-refugee-status-in-canada

https://floridaactioncommittee.org/canada-blocks-extradition-accused-sex-offender-civil-commitment/

 

....so Canada/provinces do have a choice...and have chosen to refuse extradition....even for sex offender criminals.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

29 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Seriously ?    OK...here ya go...two examples where Canada did not extradite at U.S. request....

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/florida-sex-offender-who-had-relations-with-16-year-old-granted-refugee-status-in-canada

https://floridaactioncommittee.org/canada-blocks-extradition-accused-sex-offender-civil-commitment/

 

....so Canada/provinces do have a choice...and have chosen to refuse extradition....even for sex offender criminals.

 

 

Interesting cases.  In both examples, particularly the first, the case was made that these individuals would have faced draconian punishments.  The age of consent in Canada is 16.  In Florida this woman would have gone to jail for 30 years for consensual sex with a 16 year old.  That’s fucking crazy.  It reminds me of  “three strikes you’re out”: Get caught steeling a loaf of bread three times and go to prison for life.  Thank God we live in Canada.  

[bush_cheney2004]

15 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Interesting cases.  In both examples, particularly the first, the case was made that these individuals would have faced draconian punishments.  The age of consent in Canada is 16.  In Florida this woman would have gone to jail for 30 years for consensual sex with a 16 year old.  That’s fucking crazy.  It reminds me of  “three strikes you’re out”: Get caught steeling a loaf of bread three times and go to prison for life.  Thank God we live in Canada.  

 

We already debated that case in this forum before, but that really isn't the point here.

The point is that Canada clearly has made extradition arrests and decisions based on Canadian criteria and court decisions, even in the case of known sexual assault perpetrators.

So it is disingenuous to claim that Canada had/has no choice in the arrest/extradition of Ms. Weng.    It is/was a Canadian decision.