Muzzle the real beast!

[canadian_conservative]

Why couln't she just stick with stopmping on Bush dolls now that was great!

A few days ago the Chief of Defense staff for the DND spoke out against terrorists calling them "scumbags" and saying are soldiers are for killing. In my oppinion this is the reality, nobody wants to think a soldier is for killing but in truth that is the reality they are not for rescuing your cat when it get stuck in a tree or cleaning your house for you! they are trained to kill. As for his comments about scumbags well I think terrorists are scum to they are killing innocent civillians. Than Parrish speaks out saying that we should muzzle him.

Yeesh Parrish isnt happy unless she can draw attention to herself. She either is on the terrorists side for defending them or she just doesnt know how to shutup! I think we shoudl muzzle her!

[newbie]

She either is on the terrorists side for defending them

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sort of reminds me of the Bush proclamation, "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists."

or she just doesnt know how to shutup! I think we shoudl muzzle her!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That might be an idea for a number of folks on this forum.

Parish doesn't speak for Canadians and neither does the good General.

[PocketRocket]

It reminds me more of some of the ultra-right-wing types in the States, who scream "traitor" every time someone speaks out against the war in Iraq.

You see, we have this thing called "freedom of speech".

It means that you're allowed to say anything you want.

If the public feels her comments are inappropriate, they'll let her know next election.

[Sir Chauncy]

Parrish is an elected representative of the Canadian people in our Government and as such is obligated to speak either her mind or how she percieves the Canadian majority feel about matters.

The General is simply a person in a high position job, elected by no one to present the Canadian view. He had no business to publicly state what he did and pretend it means something. Ottawa had no business listening to the arrogant self importent jerk either.

Muzzle him.

And perhaps a muzzle for her as well. But I do get such enjoyment waiting for her next stupid remark.LOL

SC

[canadian_conservative]

PArrish doesnt speak for Canadians. But how can you say the General has not done nothing. I think Bill Graham should be fired and Hillier should take up Minister of Defense. Hillier is doing a hell of a lot more serving the aArmed forces and fixing them in just a few months than Graham did in his years as DM.

"The General is simply a person in a high position job, elected by no one to present the Canadian view. He had no business to publicly state what he did and pretend it means something. Ottawa had no business listening to the arrogant self importent jerk either."

He actually does have business stating somthing sonsidering he holds a high possition in the Canadian armed forces. Plus i think somone in this forum also stating their is freedom of speech which also mean he can talk all he wants. I am affraid your oppinion doesn't matter on this one because he can talk untill the moon turns blue.

How is he a self impotent arrogent jerk? he was stating a fact that are armed forces are for killing people and terrorists are scumbags. Are you one of those ones who think are armed forces are for rescuing your cat and terrorists well are just normal peacefull people?

[Sir Chauncy]

He actually does have business stating somthing sonsidering he holds a high possition in the Canadian armed forces. Plus i think somone in this forum also stating their is freedom of speech which also mean he can talk all he wants. I am affraid your oppinion doesn't matter on this one because he can talk untill the moon turns blue.

How is he a self impotent arrogent jerk? he was stating a fact that are armed forces are for killing people and terrorists are scumbags. Are you one of those ones who think are armed forces are for rescuing your cat and terrorists well are just normal peacefull people?

_____________

CC..Are you one who dismisses those you disagree with by simple insult.

The man is elected to no public seat. He is a General, period , nothing more. He made General by either connections or by being a better then average enlisted man, neither of which gives him any right to think he represents my view or other Canadian views, nor the views of the Military.

He presents his views only and in his high profile job should know enough to state they are his views only.

Whether he is right or wrong is not the question. Should he be allowed to say such things publicly as a high profile man in our forces who was never given the right to represent our views to the world.

I happen to agree with his views that terrorists are scumbags. That is why I detest the present Government of Washington, because in my view they are todays terrorists.

In WW2 in France, those doing what the Freedom Fighters in Iraq do today were heroes of the world. They were fighting invaders, just like those people in Iraq are doing. They are fighting invaders ,

Obviously you disagree. That is your choice, but kindly respect the fact that people often disagree without insulting each other.

And no, I dont think everyone fighting as insurgents in Iraq are heroes. Many have adgendas, but how do you tell which is which when they all fight their invaders.

SC

[canadian_conservative]

I am not insulting you, I am simpily stating my oppinion in this debate I am just disagreeing with you. But if I have insulted you my apoligies goes out to you. He wasnt elected he was choses by the Priminister or recommended by the DM. Their are not many people in parliment who are actually elected IE. the governeur general, defense minister etc. You elect the man who will represent you in this case it's the Priminister and he chose his cabinat members and of ocurse the chief of the defense staff. So in a way you did elect him (the General) when and if you voted libral. If you didn't liek his decission thats your choice but the only way to get rid of Hillier is to vote in another PM.

[Army Guy]

Sir Chauncy:

He had no business to publicly state what he did and pretend it means something. Ottawa had no business listening to the arrogant self importent jerk either.

Has anyone ever thought that his remarks were not targetted at the average Canadain citizen but to his soldiers in a language that we understand and respect.

For someone who dislike insults your prettt free with them. What does make him an arrogant jerk, those few words he spoke, or his actions in Afganistan. or perhaps you agree with Parrishs words and we in the military are all just beasts....

[Yaro]

PArrish doesnt speak for Canadians. But how can you say the General has not done nothing. I think Bill Graham should be fired and Hillier should take up Minister of Defense. Hillier is doing a hell of a lot more serving the aArmed forces and fixing them in just a few months than Graham did in his years as DM.

Hilliers job isn't to make policy or to represent Canada's philosophical position to the media, he’s a general and like everyone else in the army his job is to shut up in public and do what he’s told.

How is he a self impotent arrogent jerk? he was stating a fact that are armed forces are for killing people and terrorists are scumbags. Are you one of those ones who think are armed forces are for rescuing your cat and terrorists well are just normal peacefull people?

What he states a private citizen and what he states in his official capacity as a general are two very separate things. What you and I think the purpose of the armed forces is is irrelevant as is his opinion of it. As for what exactly terrorists are, I would suggest that you be careful what you say because every country on earth has at one time or another supported terrorist actions.

Has anyone ever thought that his remarks were not targeted at the average Canadian citizen but to his soldiers in a language that we understand and respect.

For someone who dislike insults your prettt free with them. What does make him an arrogant jerk, those few words he spoke, or his actions in Afganistan. or perhaps you agree with Parrishs words and we in the military are all just beasts....

If what he stated he stated straight to the troops in private I would have no problem with it, he didn't do that he stated it in a public address.

And yes I think the vast majority of the people in the military have violent and anti-social tendencies. That is the nature of any military; it doesn't attract gentle or peaceful people.

[Army Guy]

Yaro:

Hilliers job isn't to make policy or to represent Canada's philosophical position to the media, he’s a general and like everyone else in the army his job is to shut up in public and do what he’s told.

Perhaps you show everyone, Where Gen Hillier made policy? or has stated anything else that this goverment has not already made public in regards to our philosophical postion.

One of the many jobs Gen Hillier has is to ensure the security of this country both home and abroad. his statements were targeted at his troops, while ensuring the rest of population that Canada's military was taking the job very seriously, and that the bad guys beware.

If what he stated he stated straight to the troops in private I would have no problem with it, he didn't do that he stated it in a public address.

And yes I think the vast majority of the people in the military have violent and anti-social tendencies. That is the nature of any military; it doesn't attract gentle or peaceful people.

The military has used the media althrough history, i don't understand why you have a problem with them using it now. because he called some terrorist scum bags....may i suggest you read up on some of the Taliban exploits and then tell me he is not right...

Your last comment is a racist remark. You've painted everyone in Canadian military with one brush. It shows your that you have zero knowledge of Canada's military, it's history, or what they actually do. You should stick to subjects that you know about instead of insulting an entire group of professionals that give so much for this country and ask for nothing in return.

[Yaro]

Perhaps you show everyone, Where Gen Hillier made policy? or has stated anything else that this goverment has not already made public in regards to our philosophical postion.

No actually the government has never come out with the position that we were there for any other reason then to create a stable environment. Anything else beyond that is his fabrication.

One of the many jobs Gen Hillier has is to ensure the security of this country both home and abroad. his statements were targeted at his troops, while ensuring the rest of population that Canada's military was taking the job very seriously, and that the bad guys beware.

His job is to do what he’s told. It is irrelevant whether his statements were targeted at his troops he shouldn't be saying anything but facts to a camera for public consumption. What this really comes down to is facts vs. rhetoric, we don't need that crap give the people the unedited truth and let them make up there minds.

The military has used the media although history, i don't understand why you have a problem with them using it now. because he called some terrorist scum bags....may i suggest you read up on some of the Taliban exploits and then tell me he is not right...

And I would suggest you read up on Canada's exploits in WW2, I suggest you read up on the US's exploits in South America, on the Japanese exploits in Indochina, and the Philippines, the British exploits during the Boer war(quite frankly I could go on for days). The fact of the matter is that every nation on the planet has at one time or another done or supported things on par with what the Taliban did. I am not saying these people aren't scumbags, I am saying that I don't want a general feeding rhetoric to the public, which is what his statements were all about.

Your last comment is a racist remark. You've painted everyone in Canadian military with one brush. It shows your that you have zero knowledge of Canada's military, it's history, or what they actually do. You should stick to subjects that you know about instead of insulting an entire group of professionals that give so much for this country and ask for nothing in return.

I said MOST first off so no I haven't painted them all, it’s not a racist remark because the military isn't a race. It could perhaps be loosely described as a culture but I have no problem being called a culturalist (not a word I know but you get my meaning). While it is theoretically possible that someone on this board knows more about the military then me, its remote at best. If you want to have a go on military history its your funeral.

I have stated a fact, people who join the military aren't soft cuddly types, I am sorry that it offends you but the reality is that military training is largely designed to create a sociopath. Don't like that fact? to bad, facts don't change because you don't like them.

As for supporting the military, I very much support the military. I have no desire to put the military unnecessarily in harms way for political gain. Our presence in Afghanistan at this point is all about scoring points with the US administration. That to me is not a good reason for being there; we could far more effectively spend this money on better equipment, better pay, and a general upgrade for our militaries capabilities.

[canadian_conservative]

Hillier's job isnt to shut up in publick and do what he is told. It's to command the Canadian Armed Forces don't you know your ranks?

"I would suggest that you be careful what you say because every country on earth has at one time or another supported terrorist actions."

IS THAT A THREAT ON MY LIFE?? I highly have to dissagree with you so i guess you think that the suicide bombers blowing themselves up on both sides in Israel and Palestine are actions you support? The london Bombings are actions you suppor? Septermeber 11 is an action you support? I suggest you rethink what you just said up their

[Army Guy]

Yaro:

No actually the government has never come out with the position that we were there for any other reason then to create a stable environment. Anything else beyond that is his fabrication.

Yes the govermant has come out serveral times and informed the public on all operations within Afganistan. The people of Canada have known all along about our military taken part in the US led operation Enduring freedom. which is part of the War on terrorism.

As for your remarks about Hillier fabricating our role in Afganistan is BS. Canada's role is decided by our goverment DND does not act without the PM's authority.

My Webpage

His job is to do what he’s told. It is irrelevant whether his statements were targeted at his troops he shouldn't be saying anything but facts to a camera for public consumption. What this really comes down to is facts vs. rhetoric, we don't need that crap give the people the unedited truth and let them make up there minds.

It's funny how only a few on this board disagree on what was said by the General....The PM never commented, the Minister of Nation Defense never commented there for they must have agreed, would you not say so...

Are you saying Canadians are not able to make-up thier own minds ...you certainly did...We allow them to make-up thier own minds on every other topic...except to when you take offense to what was said because he was not politically correct....

And I would suggest you read up on Canada's exploits in WW2, I suggest you read up on the US's exploits in South America, on the Japanese exploits in Indochina, and the Philippines, the British exploits during the Boer war(quite frankly I could go on for days). The fact of the matter is that every nation on the planet has at one time or another done or supported things on par with what the Taliban did. I am not saying these people aren't scumbags, I am saying that I don't want a general feeding rhetoric to the public, which is what his statements were all about.

Lets state for the record we are talking about Canada's exploits. show me an example that would support your statement that Canadians have done things on par with the Taliban. such as Public excutions, be it by stoning or rifle,by fire,or by torture for minor offenses, such as trying to go to school,not wearing a veil,listening to music, reading a book, holding hands with the opposite sex.the list goes on....And if your saying they are scumbags why can't a general call a spade a spade, why is it rhetoric when he is simple stating the trurth....

said MOST first off so no I haven't painted them all, it’s not a racist remark because the military isn't a race. It could perhaps be loosely described as a culture but I have no problem being called a culturalist (not a word I know but you get my meaning). While it is theoretically possible that someone on this board knows more about the military then me, its remote at best. If you want to have a go on military history its your funeral

This is your quote is it not....

And yes I think the vast majority of the people in the military have violent and anti-social tendencies. That is the nature of any military; it doesn't attract gentle or peaceful people.

Your right, you did not paint them all "just the vast majority" And no the military is not a race, however Racist remarks includes groups which the military is one of... so yes it is a racist remark...as for your last comment "While it is theoretically possible that someone on this board knows more about the military then me, its remote at best"

Today is your lucky day, I am a current serving member of the Canada's military although i make no claim to being the brightest on the board i can hold my own when it comes to Canada's military and military history.

I have stated a fact, people who join the military aren't soft cuddly types, I am sorry that it offends you but the reality is that military training is largely designed to create a sociopath. Don't like that fact? to bad, facts don't change because you don't like them.

And yes I think the vast majority of the people in the military have violent and anti-social tendencies. That is the nature of any military; it doesn't attract gentle or peaceful people.

Care to back any of those statements up with those "facts" I've been in the Infantry for just over 26 years now and recieved just about all the different training one can recieve. I'm not violent or do i pocess any Anti-social behaviors that you claim....nor i have i noticed any within my comrads in arms that would considered out of the norm with the rest of the population within Canada.

And your talking about rhetoric, give me a break....

As for supporting the military, I very much support the military.

Yes it sounds like your one of our biggest fans ....

I have no desire to put the military unnecessarily in harms way for political gain.

You mean fighting terrorist, on thier ground instead of in Canada. Why is Afganistan so different than Bosina, or golan,or Rwanda, if we can help those that wanted to be helped bring some peace to the region some normalcy to the lives of the common Afgany is that so bad....

Our presence in Afghanistan at this point is all about scoring points with the US administration. That to me is not a good reason for being there;

Any pionts we got were lost when we refused to fight in Iraq...we have proven to the rest of the world that we can and do make our own minds up on world affairs...Funny that i did not here any bad press when our soldiers were sent to Afgan or when they were awarded medals for bravery and valor by the US.

we could far more effectively spend this money on better equipment, better pay, and a general upgrade for our militaries capabilities

Your right we could, but instead our goverment decided to use it's military forces to assist the US in thier fight again'st terrorism...If the people of Canada wanted a better or larger military it would say so with actions not words. it has not done that yet, the goverment knows this, plays on it, but like the people only pays lip service to it...

I'm not saying that the people of Canada have not vioced thier opinions because they have...they have just not taken action to force the goverment to listen or act....

[Yaro]

Yes the government has come out several times and informed the public on all operations within Afghanistan. The people of Canada have known all along about our military taken part in the US led operation Enduring freedom. Which is part of the War on terrorism?

As for your remarks about Hillier fabricating our role in Afghanistan is BS. Canada's role is decided by our government DND does not act without the PM's authority.

Your clearly unaware of the politics that go on in most countries between the military and government, I don't want to see Canada turn into one of those. Canada's military leaders have very much traditionally maintained a distance from the decision making process I would like that to continue.

It's funny how only a few on this board disagree on what was said by the General....The PM never commented, the Minister of Nation Defense never commented there for they must have agreed, would you not say so...

Are you saying Canadians are not able to make-up their own minds ...you certainly did...We allow them to make-up their own minds on every other topic...except to when you take offense to what was said because he was not politically correct....

I am saying that it is easier for Canadians or any people to make up there minds if emotionally charged rhetoric isn't thrown there way constantly. Its called being mature and intelligent about the decisions we make. I don't like rhetoric from my politicians either, but it is part of there job to represent Canada as a whole. That is not the Generals job.

As for having the support of the people on this board, well that hardly means anything 3/4 of the people on this board are conservatives (check out the poll on the front page). Conservatives make up about 1/4 of the countries population so you do the math.

Let’s state for the record we are talking about Canada's exploits. show me an example that would support your statement that Canadians have done things on par with the Taliban. such as Public excutions, be it by stoning or rifle,by fire,or by torture for minor offenses, such as trying to go to school,not wearing a veil,listening to music, reading a book, holding hands with the opposite sex.the list goes on....And if your saying they are scumbags why can't a general call a spade a spade, why is it rhetoric when he is simple stating the trurth....

While you and I may agree that there scumbags, it’s unnecessary. Rhetoric does nothing but obfuscate the honest debate of ideas. As for what Canada has done, well that’s a fairly long list(and Canada has been considerably better then most nations). Do you know who the Black Watch are/were? Well in WW2 they were mostly Canadian and Scottish troops (mostly Canadian pig farmers from sask. actually). They were without a doubt the most feared Infantry unit of WW2. The reason they were the most feared infantry of WW2 is because they didn't take prisoners, they slaughtered them, thousands of them. When faced with the prospect of going up against the black watch many German units would surrender to units from other countries because of this.

But if what you want to hear is that Canadian units have a comparatively benign history, then yes your absolutely correct comparatively few stories of Canadian butchery exist so long as you don't count complicity with the US.

Your right, you did not paint them all "just the vast majority" And no the military is not a race, however Racist remarks includes groups which the military is one of... so yes it is a racist remark...as for your last comment "While it is theoretically possible that someone on this board knows more about the military then me, its remote at best"

Today is your lucky day, I am a current serving member of the Canada's military although I make no claim to being the brightest on the board I can hold my own when it comes to Canada's military and military history.

If it will make you happy, I will withdraw the vast majority, and state that I believe it is a simple majority.

However I ask you this question, could you kill a man without thought, and without regret?

As to your knowledge of our military I would suggest that regardless of your service it is EXTREMELY doubtful you know more then a taper in my tornado about militaries in general or the Canadian military in specific. Although I will bow to your knowledge on most day to day issues of infantry life.

Care to back any of those statements up with those "facts" I've been in the Infantry for just over 26 years now and received just about all the different training one can receive. I'm not violent or do I pocess any Anti-social behaviors that you claim....nor I have I noticed any within my comrads in arms that would considered out of the norm with the rest of the population within Canada.

And your talking about rhetoric, give me a break....

I have dealt with just as many soldiers as you have, probably more. I would note also that Anti-social behavior is rarely immediately apparent or obvious and its doubtful you would even be aware of such tendencies in your unit.

Yes it sounds like your one of our biggest fans ....

Define biggest fan? I want to spend almost 3x as much as we currently do to equip our soldiers with the best equipment, I want to give them the best opportunities at training, the best healthcare, and I want them to have very good pay. I also take the matter of turning someone into a sociopath isn't something I take lightly nor would I do it without serious thought and consideration for there psychology. I also wouldn't ever put our troops in harms way if its not absolutely necessary. So I don't know exactly what you would want from your biggest fans but I think my beliefs are pretty damn supportive.

You mean fighting terrorist, on their ground instead of in Canada. Why is Afghanistan so different than Bosina, or golan,or Rwanda, if we can help those that wanted to be helped bring some peace to the region some normalcy to the lives of the common Afgany is that so bad....

First off, Afghanistan is very different from Rwanda, who says I want our boys in Bosnia, or the Golan heights? What’s going on in Afghanistan is not our problem, its a US problem, they created it, and Canadian troops shouldn't have to die cleaning up the mess they made.

Remember that the exact same people that the US is fighting now were the same ones using the exact same tactics against the Russians. They were trained by the US, they were funded by the US, and now they have turned on the US (not completely without cause I might add). This isn't our fight plain and simple.

Any pionts we got were lost when we refused to fight in Iraq...we have proven to the rest of the world that we can and do make our own minds up on world affairs...Funny that I did not here any bad press when our soldiers were sent to Afgan or when they were awarded medals for bravery and valor by the US.

First of all, if your saying we should have gone to Iraq I would just LOVE to hear your reasoning. As for bad press about Afghanistan, I really didn't have that much of a problem with the initial mission in Afghanistan. I think that we could have done allot of good there, before the US all but abandoned it to head over to take control of Iraqi oil.

Your right we could, but instead our government decided to use it's military forces to assist the US in their fight again'st terrorism...If the people of Canada wanted a better or larger military it would say so with actions not words. it has not done that yet, the goverment knows this, plays on it, but like the people only pays lip service to it...

I'm not saying that the people of Canada have not vioced their opinions because they have...they have just not taken action to force the goverment to listen or act....

In many ways playing politics with the US is like dancing with the devil, no matter how much they may seem to be on your side there really only on there own.

As for the governments position on military funding, I really don't think that allot of people want to accept our financial situation. We are still very much in debt to a very large extent, some estimate place our cost for financing our debt at 40% of our total government cost. We don't have the advantages that the US has had when it comes to military spending (homegrown defence industry, merc contracts, borrowing advantages of having the world’s reserve currency, etc...). All of the departments in the government are working on a comparative shoe string. People are tired of having there belts tightened, and with so much third world competition life for most Canadians that don't live off of investment income has steadily gotten more difficult.

So while I agree, and I personally would certainly apply a much larger budget to the military its unfair to say that either the people of Canada or the government of Canada don't care.

IS THAT A THREAT ON MY LIFE?? I highly have to dissagree with you so I guess you think that the suicide bombers blowing themselves up on both sides in Israel and Palestine are actions you support? The london Bombings are actions you suppor? Septermeber 11 is an action you support? I suggest you rethink what you just said up their

I realize that English isn't your first language, so I am going to tell you just this once. If you want to have an intelligent conversation on this or any other topic with me please don't make stupid statements like, IS THAT A THREAT ON MY LIFE?? Because obviously no its not a threat on your life, its a warning that in debating circles it could reasonably be called putting your head in my propeller and hopping that I don't turn on the engine.

For the rest of your post, no I wouldn't say I support suicide bombers, but I understand there grievance and I understand the fact that they simply have no other way of fighting back.

As for the London bombings, no I don't "support them" but I do understand them. The same goes for 911, I don't "support them" any more then I support the actions that caused them. But when I see a group of people fighting back in the only way they can I am not going to turn around and say, hey you don't fight dirty, I know that there 10x your size and they have been abusing you for 50 and you have no chance to win a conventional war that’s no reason to do these things regardless of how justified you might be. That’s just stupid and unrealistic.

At the end of the day, anyone that wants to be able to claim they live in a democracy has to take some responsibility for the actions of there government, in the west we stopped doing that a long long time ago.

[Argus]

The man is elected to no public seat. He is a General, period , nothing more.

He's actually the Chief of the Defence Staff, which means that he's probably a better politician than the politicians, almost certainly smarter, and unquestionably knows more about such things than any of the politicians. And you resent his stating his opinion for what reason exactly, other than a knee-jerk anti-militarism?

He made General by either connections or by being a better then average enlisted man, neither of which gives him any right to think he represents my view or other Canadian views, nor the views of the Military.

That's an awful lot of snivelling because the man said boo to terrorists. Did you dirty your pants in fear they'd come get you in retaliation?

In WW2 in France, those doing what the Freedom Fighters in Iraq do today were heroes of the world.

I suspect that any of those old men who were freedom fighters in France would beat the living crap out of you if you suggested to them they deliberately planted explosives to blow up children and innocent French civilians. Or even that they set massive bombs all over the place without the slightest care how many of their countrymen died. Furthermore, while the French were fighting against a brutal, Nazi dictator and hoping to free their nation, the insurgents in Iraq are fighting in favour of a brutal dictatorship (a theocracy using sharia law) and against democracy, which they have stated is against Allah's will.

[Argus]

And yes I think the vast majority of the people in the military have violent and anti-social tendencies. That is the nature of any military; it doesn't attract gentle or peaceful people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Says the man who clearly knows nothing whatever about the military or any of the people in it.

[Argus]

And I would suggest you read up on Canada's exploits in WW2, I suggest you read up on the US's exploits in South America, on the Japanese exploits in Indochina, and the Philippines, the British exploits during the Boer war(quite frankly I could go on for days). The fact of the matter is that every nation on the planet has at one time or another done or supported things on par with what the Taliban did.

Oh bullshit. And as for suggesting others "read up" on WW2 and the like, please, the only information you have on WW2 probably came from one of those nutty conspiracy web sites you seem to think whispers the gospel truth straight into your ear. I highly doubt you've read a book without thought baloons in years.

I said MOST first off so no I haven't painted them all, it’s not a racist remark because the military isn't a race. It could perhaps be loosely described as a culture but I have no problem being called a culturalist (not a word I know but you get my meaning).

How about ignorant blowhard? Got a problem with that?

While it is theoretically possible that someone on this board knows more about the military then me, its remote at best. If you want to have a go on military history its your funeral.

You all listen to Yaro, damnit! He's read web sites! Several of em!

I have stated a fact, people who join the military aren't soft cuddly types, I am sorry that it offends you but the reality is that military training is largely designed to create a sociopath. Don't like that fact? to bad, facts don't change because you don't like them.

You see, all statements like this reveal to anyone who actually knows a little about the military, is your vast ignorance, your stupid, self-righteous bigotted arrogance which is almost the cliche of the cheese eating snot.

[newbie]

Argus, chill man.

[Argus]

As for what Canada has done, well that’s a fairly long list(and Canada has been considerably better then most nations). Do you know who the Black Watch are/were? Well in WW2 they were mostly Canadian and Scottish troops (mostly Canadian pig farmers from sask. actually). They were without a doubt the most feared Infantry unit of WW2. The reason they were the most feared infantry of WW2 is because they didn't take prisoners, they slaughtered them, thousands of them.

No doubt you can back that up with something reliable, right?

Care to back any of those statements up with those "facts" I've been in the Infantry for just over 26 years now and received just about all the different training one can receive. I'm not violent or do I pocess any Anti-social behaviors that you claim....nor I have I noticed any within my comrads in arms that would considered out of the norm with the rest of the population within Canada.

And your talking about rhetoric, give me a break....

I have dealt with just as many soldiers as you have, probably more.

Let me guess, you were a busboy in an army mess while you were taking sociology courses in college?

[canadian_conservative]

The man is elected to no public seat. He is a General, period , nothing more.

He's actually the Chief of the Defence Staff, which means that he's probably a better politician than the politicians, almost certainly smarter, and unquestionably knows more about such things than any of the politicians. And you resent his stating his opinion for what reason exactly, other than a knee-jerk anti-militarism?

He made General by either connections or by being a better then average enlisted man, neither of which gives him any right to think he represents my view or other Canadian views, nor the views of the Military.

That's an awful lot of snivelling because the man said boo to terrorists. Did you dirty your pants in fear they'd come get you in retaliation?

In WW2 in France, those doing what the Freedom Fighters in Iraq do today were heroes of the world.

I suspect that any of those old men who were freedom fighters in France would beat the living crap out of you if you suggested to them they deliberately planted explosives to blow up children and innocent French civilians. Or even that they set massive bombs all over the place without the slightest care how many of their countrymen died. Furthermore, while the French were fighting against a brutal, Nazi dictator and hoping to free their nation, the insurgents in Iraq are fighting in favour of a brutal dictatorship (a theocracy using sharia law) and against democracy, which they have stated is against Allah's will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You tsure told him i needed a little help in debating that one, you put up a good fight. But since you think that I am a troll and stated that in the monarchy forum ill have to say your trying to start arguments by posting this: "That's an awful lot of snivelling because the man said boo to terrorists. Did you dirty your pants in fear they'd come get you in retaliation?"

[canadian_conservative]

The man is elected to no public seat. He is a General, period , nothing more.

He's actually the Chief of the Defence Staff, which means that he's probably a better politician than the politicians, almost certainly smarter, and unquestionably knows more about such things than any of the politicians. And you resent his stating his opinion for what reason exactly, other than a knee-jerk anti-militarism?

He made General by either connections or by being a better then average enlisted man, neither of which gives him any right to think he represents my view or other Canadian views, nor the views of the Military.

That's an awful lot of snivelling because the man said boo to terrorists. Did you dirty your pants in fear they'd come get you in retaliation?

In WW2 in France, those doing what the Freedom Fighters in Iraq do today were heroes of the world.

I suspect that any of those old men who were freedom fighters in France would beat the living crap out of you if you suggested to them they deliberately planted explosives to blow up children and innocent French civilians. Or even that they set massive bombs all over the place without the slightest care how many of their countrymen died. Furthermore, while the French were fighting against a brutal, Nazi dictator and hoping to free their nation, the insurgents in Iraq are fighting in favour of a brutal dictatorship (a theocracy using sharia law) and against democracy, which they have stated is against Allah's will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You tsure told him i needed a little help in debating that one, you put up a good fight. But since you think that I am a troll and stated that in the monarchy forum ill have to say your trying to start arguments by posting this: "That's an awful lot of snivelling because the man said boo to terrorists. Did you dirty your pants in fear they'd come get you in retaliation?" Plus all the comments you made above, please don't be a hypocrite

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[shoop]

Man the threads here get hijacked pretty often...

Anywhoo, back to the original post.

Does Parrish have an actual problem showing a little discretion?

I think she would already be back in caucus if she wound't have gone off on this last tirade. She clearly does want to be welcomed back into the fold.

If Martin does take her back it is just a sign of his desperation to stay in power at any cost.

[canadian_conservative]

Man the threads here get hijacked pretty often...

Anywhoo, back to the original post.

Does Parrish have an actual problem showing a little discretion?

I think she would already be back in caucus if she wound't have gone off on this last tirade. She clearly does want to be welcomed back into the fold.

If Martin does take her back it is just a sign of his desperation to stay in power at any cost.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed, I don't think Parrish can help herself she only wants to here herself talking and maker hesself look important. As for "she would already be back in the cocus" I definatly agree with you on that one

[Army Guy]

Yaro:

Your quote below is it not....

No actually the government has never come out with the position that we were there for any other reason then to create a stable environment. Anything else beyond that is his fabrication.

Yes the government has come out several times and informed the public on all operations within Afghanistan. The people of Canada have known all along about our military taken part in the US led operation Enduring freedom. Which is part of the War on terrorism?

As for your remarks about Hillier fabricating our role in Afghanistan is BS. Canada's role is decided by our government DND does not act without the PM's authority.

Your clearly unaware of the politics that go on in most countries between the military and government, I don't want to see Canada turn into one of those. Canada's military leaders have very much traditionally maintained a distance from the decision making process I would like that to continue

I gave you a link that was a press release to the public from the MND( Minister of National Defence) which clearly shows that the public was aware of our mission over in Afganistan. How is it that i'm clearly not aware of politics that go on between the military and Goverment....Canada's military leaders have maintained a huge distance from goverment for good reason, the goverment was using them as scape goats for everything that went wrong...this is changing with Hillier and the views of politions are slowly coming around in regards to the military....

I am saying that it is easier for Canadians or any people to make up there minds if emotionally charged rhetoric isn't thrown there way constantly. Its called being mature and intelligent about the decisions we make. I don't like rhetoric from my politicians either, but it is part of there job to represent Canada as a whole. That is not the Generals job.

As for having the support of the people on this board, well that hardly means anything 3/4 of the people on this board are conservatives (check out the poll on the front page). Conservatives make up about 1/4 of the countries population so you do the math.

Canadians are very capable of making up thier own minds with or without rhetoric. They have been doing it for years. The general is calling it like he see's it, and has stated only the truth that these terrorist will not be babied by our military . And our present goverment does not have a problem with it. If they did have a problem with it then they would have ordered the general silent...that has yet to happen....

Yes, but the present goverment is a liberal one is it not....and they don't have a problem with the general's comments, why should you....

While you and I may agree that there scumbags, it’s unnecessary. Rhetoric does nothing but obfuscate the honest debate of ideas.

Then why do you use it...

As for what Canada has done, well that’s a fairly long list(and Canada has been considerably better then most nations). Do you know who the Black Watch are/were? Well in WW2 they were mostly Canadian and Scottish troops (mostly Canadian pig farmers from sask. actually).

I'd be curious to know just were you got the Pig farmers from sask info...as the Black Watch was a Montreal Que based unit....they did take volenteers from across Canada but you did say "mostly" did you not....

They were without a doubt the most feared Infantry unit of WW2. The reason they were the most feared infantry of WW2 is because they didn't take prisoners, they slaughtered them, thousands of them.

That is a questionable remark considering the company they were in. Such as the 1 st Para Bn, and lets not forget the SSF brigade....but lets not forget about the rest of the Regts involved in WW II....

As for your last remark your going to have to give me some referances to the slaughtering of thousands , and the mention of taking no prisoners. As i've have looked and can not find any ref or links...

If it will make you happy, I will withdraw the vast majority, and state that I believe it is a simple majority

Your comment is still BS...like stating all plumbers have fat asses and wear pants that are to big to show off thier butt cracks....give me a break or some proof...

However I ask you this question, could you kill a man without thought, and without regret?

In combat, yes i could kill an enemy soldier without thought, but not without regret

does that make me a violent person, with anti- social behaviors....

Would you use deadly force if you had little chioce. does that make you anti- social or violent. what about other people such as cops, or persons that study marshall arts are they violent or anti-social, Hunters, fishermen all involved in killing something...... B.S

As to your knowledge of our military I would suggest that regardless of your service it is EXTREMELY doubtful you know more then a taper in my tornado about militaries in general or the Canadian military in specific. Although I will bow to your knowledge on most day to day issues of infantry life.

Perhaps you do, but you've yet to prove that to me or the others...what you have proved is that you are full of yourself, considering there are many very informed individuals on this forum.

Perhaps you could start another topic, one of your chioce and prove your mastery of the history Canadian military. I'm sure there is a few members on this board that can give you a run for your honourary title ..

I have dealt with just as many soldiers as you have, probably more. I would note also that Anti-social behavior is rarely immediately apparent or obvious and its doubtful you would even be aware of such tendencies in your unit.

So you work within DND, perhaps you can give us a clear laymens diffination of anti socail behavior so it does become obvious...You are aware of the briefings we get yearly and before every tour to spot such behavior...Are you saying that we grunts just don't get it, or that the instructors are not passing on the correct subject matter....

I also take the matter of turning someone into a sociopath isn't something I take lightly nor would I do it without serious thought and consideration for there psychology.

I'm sure that is'nt mentioned on the recruiting adds "join the military and watch as we turn your sons and daughters into sociopaths...you make it sound like we eat sleep and dream about combat and killing and we are not fit to become a normal everyday citizens, that in any minute we could explode in rage and kill something or someone...The more you post the less i real think you know about the present military.

First off, Afghanistan is very different from Rwanda, who says I want our boys in Bosnia, or the Golan heights?

In which ways....

Remember that the exact same people that the US is fighting now were the same ones using the exact same tactics against the Russians. They were trained by the US, they were funded by the US, and now they have turned on the US (not completely without cause I might add). This isn't our fight plain and simple

It is not the same war or tactics, and not all the players are the same people....I personal think you give the US to much credit in the Afganis war with the russians.

First of all, if your saying we should have gone to Iraq I would just LOVE to hear your reasoning. As for bad press about Afghanistan, I really didn't have that much of a problem with the initial mission in Afghanistan. I think that we could have done allot of good there, before the US all but abandoned it to head over to take control of Iraqi oil.

You make it sound like it's all past tense. the mission is still on going. As for the US abandoning Afgan over 18,000 troops is hardly abandoning.

[Yaro]

Yes the government has come out several times and informed the public on all operations within Afghanistan. The people of Canada have known all along about our military taken part in the US led operation Enduring freedom. Which is part of the War on terrorism?

As for your remarks about Hillier fabricating our role in Afghanistan is BS. Canada's role is decided by our government DND does not act without the PM's authority.

I disagree, every release by the government has at one time or another passed my desk and I have never seen a statement, which suggested his position, was the national one. Not that I would argue it wasn't the position behind closed doors, only that it wasn't there announced position.

I gave you a link that was a press release to the public from the MND( Minister of National Defence), which clearly shows that the public was aware of our mission over in Afghanistan. How is it that i'm clearly not aware of politics that go on between the military and Goverment....Canada's military leaders have maintained a huge distance from goverment for good reason, the goverment was using them as scape goats for everything that went wrong...this is changing with Hillier and the views of politions are slowly coming around in regards to the military....

I have never seen the Canadian government use the military as a scapegoat. Neglected yes, abused yes, used as a scapegoat no. Of course there were press releases but at no point was a statement made as to nation building, a Cyprus like commitment to a country with a very violent history with a population nearly as big as our own.

Canadians are very capable of making up their own minds with or without rhetoric. They have been doing it for years. The general is calling it like he see's it, and has stated only the truth that these terrorist will not be babied by our military . And our present goverment does not have a problem with it. If they did have a problem with it then they would have ordered the general silent...that has yet to happen....

Yes, but the present goverment is a liberal one is it not....and they don't have a problem with the general's comments, why should you....

No Canadians, like every other group of people on the planet have their decision-making abilities adversely affected by rhetoric and propaganda. It doesn't behoove any of us to encourage that behavior. And I don't think that anyone was ever under the impression that terrorists were getting coddled.

Who says they don't have a problem? I would in fact bet money that they do, although making it public would have been unnecessarily divisive. I am very sure that a request was made of the general to tone down the rhetoric.

Then why do you use it...

If you believe that something I have said is rhetoric, then I would ask that you point it out. I hardly consider myself above the fray.

I'd be curious to know just were you got the Pig farmers from sask info...as the Black Watch was a Montreal Que based unit....they did take volenteers from across Canada but you did say "mostly" did you not....

Black Watch as it pertains to WW2, was an amalgamation of Scotish/Irish/Canadian/Austrailian troops. Like most not British units black watch was considered a "dragoon" regiment. WW2's black watch had its roots in the Scottish unit however. I did miswrite before however in that what I intended to say was that the notoriety that this unit enjoyed came primarily from the actions of a group of sask. pig farmers.

That is a questionable remark considering the company they were in. Such as the 1 st Para Bn, and lets not forget the SSF brigade....but lets not forget about the rest of the Regts involved in WW II....

As for your last remark your going to have to give me some referances to the slaughtering of thousands , and the mention of taking no prisoners. As i've have looked and can not find any ref or links...

There were plenty of famous units in WW2, and there were certainly plenty of famous companies, however no regiment in the entire war created as much fear as black watch. I will have to try to find the book that was the source of that particular historical gem however.

In combat, yes i could kill an enemy soldier without thought, but not without regret

does that make me a violent person, with anti- social behaviors....

While I could point out that by clinical definition it makes you both prone to violence and definably anti-social but that’s not what I meant. I certainly believe that most soldiers could kill without thought but not without regret. But you would be hard pressed to suggest that there isn't a significant minority that would feel little to no regret, which is the basis of sociopath logy, which is most certainly an anti social behavior.

I'm sure that isn’t mentioned on the recruiting adds "join the military and watch as we turn your sons and daughters into sociopaths...you make it sound like we eat sleep and dream about combat and killing and we are not fit to become a normal everyday citizens, that in any minute we could explode in rage and kill something or someone...The more you post the less i real think you know about the present military.

Yes because god knows military recruiters are well known for telling the whole story. Regardless soldiers are trained to react in a certain way it has nothing to do with a lack of humanity or any kind of rage, the ability to set aside empathy in order to perform the duties of a soldier is a cornerstone of military training, that is by definition sociopath behavior-the lack of ability to empathize.

In which ways....

Rwanda was ethnic cleansing, it was on an entirely different scale then every terrorist attack in the last 100 years combined. Imagine 911 happing every day for 150 days straight and maybe you will start to understand why Rwanda is very very different then Afghanistan.

It is not the same war or tactics, and not all the players are the same people....I personal think you give the US to much credit in the Afghani’s war with the russians.

This statement is patently false, the origins of OBL and many of the senior members of "al qaeda" were trained and equipped by the CIA, the CIA used profits from the sale of Afghani drugs to fund many of there other operations and the methods used in fighting by the Taliban fighters are most certainly very similar to the ones used against us today.

You make it sound like it's all past tense. the mission is still on going. As for the US abandoning Afgan over 18,000 troops is hardly abandoning.

Afghanistan is a country of 30 million people(by comparison Iraq has 26 million), 18,000 troops in a country that size is most certainly abandoning the operation. I really don't think that most people understand the size of the task in Afghanistan, people seem to have this picture of Afghanistan as this tiny country that can't muster a significant long-term resistance when that is anything but the truth. In many ways it is much like Vietnam, except where the Vietnamese had the Chinese border to run to the Afghani’s have the Pakistani border to run to.