Affirmative Discrimination and Racism

RB · August 30, 2003

i believe in treating problems at the root. unless you can accept that there are inequalities in these areas:

- politics

- economics

- social

you really deny these are problems exists in your systems, fix those at grassroot level and the generations that follow would not have to feel that need to be represented by a "different" kind but can perceive a "same"

i am not familiar with the SAT systems of the US, i did attend one university in the US and needed a competitive GMAT score

in canada the folks i speak with bound for university didn't really need representation of an aa group - you do well in high school and decide where to next

i believe mostly it is the more competitive programs like the law schools that accept limited number of students would encountered these issues - simply because groups remain un-represented. but just to note that scores such as the LSAT are not the primary determining factor for law school, there is the application and the a warranted in- person interview should it become necessary.

theloniusfleabag · August 30, 2003

Good lord, no one need to go into paroxysms over this one.

Racial quotas are racial quotas. It bothers me to hear the words 'reverse discrimination' when there is no such possible thing.

Any job interview can be 'directed' to produce any findings sought by the company to fit any prerequisite, but once one has brought racial ideology into the mix as a 'legitimate' variable, one taints the whole thing.

Pellaken · August 30, 2003

you guys dont get it

here is the most basic example

you treat stab wounds

you are not racist. to you, green people and purple people are equal.

someone standing beside you, however, does not like purple people. he thinks the "purps" should go back from whence they came.

whenever a "purp" walks by, he stabs them.

would it not make more sence to treat mroe purple people? or, in other words, because the asshole beside you is racist, you are forced to be racist to keep things equal.

all men are CREATED equal

they are not treated equal

and it is our job to rectify that situation.

FastNed · August 30, 2003

Pell, I believe all the "labels" obscure the problem. We can not make all people to be born with equal eyesight, physical agility & strength, intelligence and so forth but we can work for equality of opportunity.

In America (perhaps Canada, as well) our educational system has been deteriorating over the last several generations perhaps, as I think, from a failure to focus on basic education. The educational fad of the day has been an ever changing target while traditional educational values have been ignored. Feel good policies have neglected basics such as reading and writing (never mind math) and promoted students ahead in the system while they lack the knowledge to advance.

And those students promoted ahead of their knowledge become isolated and alienated as their inability to participate at higher levels become obvious. If you wished to design a system to screw up fragile kids, you couldn't do much better than this.

When the "labels" cut in, when numbers become more important than educational achievement, the problem is just moved to a higher level. Rather than admit to educational failure (which none of us like to do) the performance levels are then reduced and/or special "Studies" programs are created and the bar is lowered yet again. This continual lowering of the bar denigrates the value of every graduate most especially those of a "labeled" group.

Those few schools which have ignored the educational fads and have continued to concentrate on traditional educational values, promote and graduate students of recognized quality without regard to "labels". These schools and institutions prove that equality of opportunity does function as it should across all categories. It is a shame to us all that there are so few of them.

Pellaken · August 30, 2003

I was told that my IQ is in the einstine range

I've also been told that if you dont use your brains you lose them

I know that school was so boring to me that I lost all interest

and I've heard that I am not alone.

lotsa 'smart' kids feel very held back my school. it is only now, in university, when I am actually interested by school. I am egar to lean new things in class, which is rare enough. unfortunatly, I doubt my IQ is as high as it once was.

the education system is broken. it does not reward brains, rather, it hurts you if you are smart, in favour for those kids in atheletics.

FastNed · August 30, 2003

I regret to hear that Pell, as I know from personal experience that P.E.I. once had a system to identify highly gifted children and advance their educational opportunities.

I attended the seventh grade in a one room school house there (and no, it was not before the turn of the prior century!) and when the yearly test disclosed I wasn't exactly dumb, they wanted to move me to Charlottetown and place me in a special school with advanced educational opportunities.

It fell apart in my case when they discovered I was a "Damn Yankee" and the funding for the program only covered Canadian Citizens but the program was there. It's a pity it no longer exists or if it does, they are missing young people like you. A great deal of attention is paid to those of lesser ability (properly so) but there should be an equal attention paid to the other end of the curve.

I am not certain that "use it or loose it" applies to intelligence but I do know that if you do not exercise and use your abilities, they fade and it takes much effort to regain a prior level. Exploration into learning abilities is a fascinating field and all we are certain of now is that we have barely explored the possibilities in this area!

Craig Read · August 30, 2003

Pell with all respect i doubt your an Einstein - your political views would point more towards Sheryl Crow than either Einstein or Newton.

Sorry old chap.

Ned is right on - the heart of the issue is two fold - 1. Educational reform - mainly through more competition and yes higher tuition rates. You can't subsidise education if you want high quality. There are just too many sad, unneeded, unworthy programs, colleges and professors out there, leading to education deflation. 2. Economic reform - not quota's is necessary. Capital formation is vital to allow all people to develop opportunities in any field. Tax cuts, spending cuts and reducing asset taxes and capital taxes are vital. BET is a classic minority success story. The founder does not whine or drone on about AA - if fact he is black and against AA as was King and Douglass. Equality before the law is the necessary precondition to climb the social ladder.

Blacks, gays and other groups already have this.

So stop whining and get busy and get rid of AA.

Pellaken · August 30, 2003

I regret to hear that Pell, as I know from personal experience that P.E.I. once had a system to identify highly gifted children and advance their educational opportunities.
I attended the seventh grade in a one room school house there (and no, it was not before the turn of the prior century!) and when the yearly test disclosed I wasn't exactly dumb, they wanted to move me to Charlottetown and place me in a special school with advanced educational opportunities.

It fell apart in my case when they discovered I was a "Damn Yankee" and the funding for the program only covered Canadian Citizens but the program was there. It's a pity it no longer exists or if it does, they are missing young people like you. A great deal of attention is paid to those of lesser ability (properly so) but there should be an equal attention paid to the other end of the curve.

I am not certain that "use it or loose it" applies to intelligence but I do know that if you do not exercise and use your abilities, they fade and it takes much effort to regain a prior level. Exploration into learning abilities is a fascinating field and all we are certain of now is that we have barely explored the possibilities in this area!

I moved from Ontario to PEI between grades 5 and 6.

there were things that I was on year ahead on, and things I was one year back on.

I did go to a gifted school in ontairo. I have to say that I felt pretty "average" there... there were kids smarter then me. had I not moved to this goddamn island, I would likely have had a much better life.

I did not know that anyone here once lived in PEI. where abouts did you live? I live in Summerside most of the time, though I live at UPEI for alot.

Craig

I dont care weather you think I'm an einstin or not. I have dysraphia which affects my english skills. My math skills were extrodinary, though they have fallen off. If I were interested, I probably could be a world famous scientist, working on spacial physics. Unofrunatly, while I may be interested in weather or not the universe is curved, I am NOT interested in the sh*t that you have to go through to become a scientist of that calibur.

Also. einstien and other "genisus" were mostly left wing socially, and somewhat right wing economically.

kinda like me.

RB · August 30, 2003

pell

not sure of how old you are but for sure it really is never too late to explore the possibilities of the mind. they is always that upsurge and swing as it relates to your interest as it also relates to life, school, and experiences that you can promote.

i never rely on these scores and never take them too seriously - well i am only serious when scores really matters. but i say it is a good judgement into your mental and intellectual abilities and sometimes should be explored further for your own sake - you really don't need regrets.

don't be insensitive about good humor in the prior post, well you need to stay abreast with points of flexability to about 140 if you intend to seek seek that surge.

FastNed · August 30, 2003

Hi Pell, I have never been able to distinguish between Asperger's Syndrome and a dx of dysraphia but no doubt those with a formal medical education are correct in saying they are different in cause, if not in effect.

My maternal family is from Morell, arriving there in 170- something via Bermuda. The generation prior to me is all gone and I haven't been Down Home in a dozen years. I understand a few are left on the Island but the rest are scattered across Canada as far as Alberta, the last I heard.

My Grandfather came to Boston and after the death of his first wife, was "gone to California" where he began a new and very prolific family. The latest of that branch (sadly) to be in the News was recently killed in the UN Compound in Baghdad. We do get around and many of us are lifelong adrenaline junkies.

Pellaken · August 31, 2003

yes
maybe

no

Individuals with AS can exhibit a variety of characteristics and the disorder can range from mild to severe. Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space.

Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see. It's important to remember that the person with AS perceives the world very differently. Therefore, many behaviors that seem odd or unusual are due to those neurological differences and not the result of intentional rudeness or bad behavior, and most certainly not the result of "improper parenting".

By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area. Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context.

I dont know what that comes to, but its a start for sure.

on one level, I would like to think that there is something mentaly wrong with me. the fact that I cant get a girlfriend REALLY bothers me.

anyways, I digress.

Achilles · September 17, 2003

Affirmitive action is wrong because it is nothing more than descrimination against a majority group. The Supreme Court has ruled time and time again that ALL people are equal, not that minorities are better. I feel very strongly about this and would like to hear both sides of the argument. PLEASE POST!

nova_satori · September 17, 2003

wow, in 3 days, i've sided with the right wing three times. Weird. Oh well, I can accept that.

AA is.....reverse discrimination. Should AA exist as many years as slavery did?

Should AA even exist? Should college apps even have race on them?

Should we be condoning this discrimination aganist people just as intelligent, if not more?

My answer to all of those is no.

Whistler · September 17, 2003

I suggest affirmative action in all college endeavors right up to football.

Bushmustgo · September 17, 2003

It goes like this:

The Black man complains that he didn't get it because of the white man.

The Fat man complains that he didn't get it because of the skinny man.

The Woman complains that she didn't get it because of the man.

The Handicapped man complains that he didn't get it because of the abled man.

We then help these people who are less fortunate in the eyes of the employer and now of ALL people, the white man complains that the black, fat, handicapped or woman took his job!

Come on people, let's put it into perspective, Affirmative Action is needed to help those seen as less by an employer to find jobs and education. Be happy that you are WHITE in this country because it is a priveledge!!!

There are many studies showing that an exact resume except for the name, one black and one white, sent to hundreds of employers advertising EOE and over 400% of the ones with White names are called back over those with black names........it's obvious discrimination because people want to hire other people who talk like them and look like them and the majority of employers are white!

Hugo · September 17, 2003

Be happy that you are WHITE in this country because it is a priveledge!!!

Of course, if AA takes hold in a big way being white will become a curse.

Bushmustgo · September 17, 2003

No, being white will be leveled to the rest of the population.

Hugo, if you were born black, you would be fighting on for Affirmative Action. Some people don't have empathy and he looks to be sitting in your chair just now.

Craig Read · September 17, 2003

Some people don't have any intelligent arguments other than baseless charges of racism. Try to walk on your hind legs only please.

Bushmustgo · September 17, 2003

Why are you so concerned about abolishing AA when it doesn't really affect you?

You have the advantage on a job by simply being white, your skin is advantage. AA is trying to take skin away and base it on a more leveled playing field promoting diversity. You know, we all benefit from AA because people who normally wouldn't be excepted into certain colleges and jobs are now able to. With more minorties in the job market, it increases the that groups chance of being successful along with the majority. A strong and educated majority and minority together can only make the country better.....

You want to live where white is dominant and blacks do as they're told, what kind of country is that?

I know, I know, it's a conservate right wing country who by the way, acted as if they cared about the people in Iraq and their freedom........hypocracy at its finest!

Hugo · September 17, 2003

Please explain how, in your narrow-minded view of things, the Asian population is going to get along. They are a minority, but they are going to get the shaft because they are generally far more academic than blacks or hispanics, and AA would disqualify them from jobs and university courses in favour of blacks and hispanics.

So... AA is wonderful because it removes discrimination against minorities by discriminating against minorities.

Great argument. Do you have any that you've actually thought through?

Bushmustgo · September 17, 2003

I live in New Orleans dominated by blacks and Asians here. Asians do not seem to have a problem opening business and becoming successful as the blacks do. I don't hear too much of Asians having any problems, AA is to protect or to help those who are having problems, i.e., blacks, obese, woman, and even handicapped but, blacks are the ones that need the help the most so AA is written mostly around that group, you know, the ones who really really need it...

So much for narrow mindedness.....

Hugo · September 17, 2003

Answer the question. What are Asians going to do once they start being discriminated against thanks to AA, and how does switching discrimination from one minority to another end discrimination exactly?

Bushmustgo · September 17, 2003

Don't know what your fasination with Asian getting screwed is all about. I never read of anything saying that they were in trouble or are about to be, please explain.....

Mr Farrius · September 17, 2003

The difference between White and Asian is that White is the majority while Asian is a minority. I don't think we're talking about Asians here because though they don't seem to have a problem with getting into colleges, they're still a minority. Small minority infact, compared to the Hispanic and African-American population. They are not an issue here. Like someone previously mentioned, AA is only for people who need it. Whites on the other hand, is the majority in the United States. The United States can't have its majority race taking over every educational and job opportunity.