Affirmative Discrimination and Racism

[Bushmustgo]

Well said Mr. Farrius.

[Achilles]

I feel strongly that affirmative action is wrong. The courts have decided time and time again that ALL people should be treated fairly, not minorities over majorities. For example, in recent research of mine, the administrative proceders at Michigin gave 14 points for a perfect SAT score and 20 if you happened to be Hispanic. If you would like to contact me, email me at [email protected]

[Bushmustgo]

Achilles,

You're living in a perfect world if it was that easy to say, "Everyone shall be treated equally," and Wa-la, it is that way; unfortunately, the court has to make a way to level the playing field cause all the fit, white males would be receiving most of the jobs.

There's a voice in America screaming for help for employment and education and studies show that WHITE males are 400% more likely to obtain a position over an equally qualified black male. These studies have conclusions which happen to be Affirmative Action.

For every white male who missed an employment opportunity due to a black male under AA, there were at least 4 more blacks who didn't get it because of a white male..... Sure you're against it, you're white and can care less is a minority can get a job or not.

White employers are the majority and they want to hire people who speak and look like them....common psychology!

[Hugo]

Asians, as you've said, have no problem right now. However, give black and hispanic quotas, and they will have a problem. So, as I said, AA will eliminate discrimination against one minority by discriminating against another minority.

Does this seem fair? How does discrimination end discrimination anyway? The argument for AA is basically, 'Two wrongs make a right.'

[Bushmustgo]

Hugo,

Sounds like you're using this whole Asian thing as a Scapegoat. I don't understand the two wrongs making a right either. AA is the only way right now to level the field of discrimination, not because one may hate another race but, because they accustomed to their onw, it's what they know of their own race and unfortunately, it ends up discriminating against others.

AA is also a promotion of diversity, how can that be bad in a country where the words, "melting pot," became popular.

Perhaps you prefer the old segregation days but, those are days of the past and some of us look toward the future and correcting our mistakes.

[Hugo]

Sounds like you're using this whole Asian thing as a Scapegoat.

It's an example of the injustice of AA. I'm more interested in your refusal to answer the question, it illustrates how little you've thought your position through.

I don't understand the two wrongs making a right either.

Easy. Right now and in history, blacks have been discriminated against. So now, we'll discriminate against whites to make up for it. Two wrongs make a right, you see?

AA is also a promotion of diversity, how can that be bad in a country where the words, "melting pot," became popular.

No, it's a promotion of discrimination and the antithesis of the melting pot. It emphasises rather than downplays ethnic differences and encourages people to prejudge and discriminate based on ethnic origin.

[Bushmustgo]

That's what you're calling two wrongs, discriminating against white people?

It sounds more like "leveling" to me. The skin color is the advantage, the white guy will still never have the same problems in finding a job compared to other minorities, never.

You can use that excuse all you want but, reality of it is that we as a country need to help those having the problems. If we can go and rebuild Iraq, the least we can do is build a structure withIN the U.S. to help those in need of a job. Don't forget, we're the No. 1 economy in the world and you want it to be reserved for one group of people....

Look, if we educate and employ those groups in need, it will help them in having their families education and then a good cycle begins. If you keep holding these groups to fight for themselves in a white market, the education level and parent involvment in children's education stays low, in turn, high crime, poverty and welfare rates.....PICK YOUR POISON!!!

[Hugo]

That's what you're calling two wrongs, discriminating against white people?

YES! What's the matter with you? Turn on your brain before your computer, in future.

the white guy will still never have the same problems in finding a job compared to other minorities, never.

Oh, but he will. That's what AA will do. Don't you get it?

Look, if we educate and employ those groups in need, it will help them in having their families education and then a good cycle begins.

Educating them? Pretty much all minorities admitted to college/university due to AA fail the course. They pay their tuition and get nothing. That sounds like more shaft-the-black-man to me - take his money, give him nothing.

Employing them? How, by giving them jobs they aren't qualified for and will fail at, so that we can generate a stereotype that ethnic minorities are all idiots and suitable only for menial work?

Colin Powell is proof that a smart black man can get ahead. With AA, you'd always be wondering how smart he really was, and whether he was just there because he was black.

[Bushmustgo]

I don't know what your insecurity is all about but, it sounds a bit premature. There are AA supporters trying to help those in need, not help those who are NOT in need.

Hunger relief is not to help those full of food.

Rehabilitation is not for people without a problem.

Don't you get it now, it's to help those who need it, not the other way around....

Before you try to throw insults about turning brains on, perhaps you should take your own advise first. CLUELESS NEVER GOT ANYONE ANYWHERE!!!

[Hugo]

OK. To make this easier for you, let's apply the principle of AA to other fields, like professional sports, to get a paradigm shift and shed some light on the subject.

As you've probably noticed, blacks are vastly over-represented in the pro sports of boxing, running, baseball, basketball and football. Since 12.9% of Americans are black, we must immediately start firing blacks from professional sports until we have around 12.9% black athletes. After all, as pro athletes earn so much, it's not fair to deny white competitors this opportunity, based on race!

Does this sound smart to you? Or does it sound utterly stupid and unfair?

[Bushmustgo]

You are seriously trying to stretch an issue.

Professional sports is a totally different and unique case.

This is not an everyday job and usually a priviledge for anyone athletic enough to come in and make that much money, this case is apples to oranges in the worst way.

We are talking about normal jobs, low paying and mid-paying jobs and sometimes, but rarely, high paying jobs.

Jobs to help feed a family, not jobs to purchase a small island out in Carribean.

We're talking money and education for necessity, not luxury and leisure..

This is the purpose of AA, not Professioanl Sport in the light you shine on it.............

[Hugo]

So, I take it you don't think that AA is a great idea in pro sports.

Explain why that is.

[Bushmustgo]

I never said that AA was great in Professional sports, my concern is for the average minority looking at an edge to compensate for the discrimination, which most likely will occur on him as MANY studies show......

Sports is a different issue altogether.

[Hugo]

Answer the question. Why is AA not a good idea in pro sports?

[Whistler]

I could run a 3 second 40 spotted 20 yards. Spot me 20 feet and I could pitch for Boston.

Pro sports is exactly the same...best players play; black, white, yellow or green. One arm or two.

[Bushmustgo]

Again, sports is a totally different animal and considered a luxury and does not necessarily pertain to AA.

If you want to discuss AA in sports where 80%+ are blacks and less than 5% of the coaches deviated from the sport are black, there's something strange with that one too, wouldn't you agree.

Now recall what the study was, resumes with the same qualification but, different names, one black and one white name, the black named resume almost never gets the response in call backs as the white named resume.

Sports on the other hand is mainly based on physical capabilities from a pool of blacks and whites competing and since ownership is 98%+ White and coaches are 95%+ white, they are hiring the physical, more talented blacks (when appropriate).......... This is whites hiring blacks for the position as opposed to whites just hiring whites, which is a majority and truly unfair.

[Luigi71585]

Tell me, what is your stand on scholarships being provided to minorities? This is AA at its most disclosed and possibly most attrocious. The decision to provide extra money based on skin color is reverse racism. I fully support the taking of the scholarships as long as they are provided, but i do not understand the reasonning behind it. Many will claim that it helps integrate races into universities. This is foolish thinking. Although not perfect, Americas class system is becoming more and more balanced racially. I'll tell you this, I wanna see some scholarships out there for the short, the "overweight," and the vision impared because these are 3 examples of people who are discriminated against as much as anybody.

Don't misconstrew this. I am totally anti-racism. I can truly say i respect all peoples equally, but if the true goal is to be equal, then why are we seperating people on the basis of race? The only difference is that this is beneficial. A right cant erase a wrong. So lets move on.

What do you all think?

[Bushmustgo]

Why are you screeming and crying about what a minority is getting?

White skin color is a permanent advantage, minorities, who most are associated with under-developed communities need the extra money to compensate for their income or life situation. Of course some take advantage as anything in life will be but, the bricks are layed in this country, to level the playing field.

Again, being white has an advantage because the majority of those hiring are white; therefore, whites hire whites unless of some type of intervention, i.e., AA, comes in says, "You need to hire minorites too or grant scholarships to help them come in!"

[Derek]

Again, being white has an advantage because the majority of those hiring are white; therefore, whites hire whites unless of some type of intervention, i.e., AA, comes in says, "You need to hire minorites too or grant scholarships to help them come in!"

This couldn't be further from the truth. First, "whites" as you so delicately put it, are not racist anymore. Except for a small small percentage, and that also goes along with blacks also, a small small percentage of them are also racists. Cmon try and tell me all blacks aren't racist. This goes along with all other minority and "majority" groups. Just because of something that happened 200 years ago you can't still believe that whites are racist and partial. That is insane. Infact sometimes it would be better to hire a black coach because he would have more in common with the players. A coach or team owner in football or any other sport CANT be racist nowadays.

[Hugo]

Again, sports is a totally different animal and considered a luxury and does not necessarily pertain to AA.

Why is AA a bad idea in sports, in your opinion?

If you refuse to answer this question a fourth time I will take it to mean that you concede the debate.

[Bushmustgo]

Looks like someone's not reading an entire post.

Here's the problem:

The majority of employers in America are WHITE.

The majority of those hired per ratio are WHITE.

In sports, football and basketball in particular, the majority of the owners, approx. 99% and the coaches, over 95%, who do the hiring, hire 80%+ blacks.......

Do the math and figure it out yourself. There's no need for AA when Whites are hiring more than 50% of blacks.

The problem is when whites, the majority, are only hiring whites, the majority. AA is to help out the minorities of society. To say we need a program to hire the advantageous white guy in a white world of America is absolutely ludicrous!!!

Derek,

Look up some studies on hiring, whether the white employer is rascist or not, he is 4 x more likely to hire a white person...................just look up the study and quit talking out of your rear!

[Hugo]

Do the math and figure it out yourself. There's no need for AA when Whites are hiring more than 50% of blacks.

Basically, your argument is:

When the black man is at a disadvantage, he must be helped.

When the white man is at a disadvantage, everything is OK.

Are you a Black Panther, militant of the Nation of Islam, or something?

Regardless, you still haven't answered the question. I asked you what would be wrong with AA in sports, and you told me why AA is unnecessary in sports. That's an answer to a whole other question.

Either you can't or you won't debate me, so there's not much point in continuing this. If you lack the knowledge, go learn more about it, if you're unwilling to debate, why did you come to this forum in the first place?

[Mr Farrius]

For you anti-AA supporters, I don't get you people. You'd rather have such a huge gap between the likelihood of getting jobs based on race? Hey maybe AA does limit the majority race a bit, but at the very least, it does more to promote diversity than not at all. If you people want to get rid of AA because it'll prevent a little of the majority race from getting the opportunities they've been having already for a long time, that's what I call plain selfish. Grow up and let other people get some more opportunities.

[Hugo]

It does not promote diversity, it promotes racism.

I, for one, would rather work towards a world where people don't care about race or ethnic origin and would judge somebody on their abilities, actions and character rather than skin colour.

AA encourages judgement of a person based on skin colour. It makes skin colour a factor in a person's future and fortunes, whether it would otherwise have been or not. It pushes race to the forefront of the collective consciousness, rather than attempting to blind us to race and helping us see the human beings underneath the differing shades of skin colour. It ensures that people will continue to see Black, Hispanic, and White rather than Bill, Joe, and Ray.

AA is racist. I am not a racist, I don't like racism, therefore I don't like AA.

[Mr Farrius]

Hugo, your idea of a world isn't possible and you know it. That's why people in the present society should make best of it. You say you're not racist? Well doing nothing while you KNOW that minorities aren't getting the same opportunities is also racist. Choose.