Canada's Self-Esteem Issues

[Black Dog]

Actually a good question. Ya so what if Canadians are anti-American? I have no problem with the differences we have on issues like BMD, health care, decriminalizing MJ, etc. I don't even have a problem with Canadians being annoyed with Americans. What bothers me is when it crosses the line into hatred and utter intolerance, which it has. Even more troublesome are politicians and the government run TV station encouraging this with hate talk. Not only is it unfair, but it's hypocritical coming from a country that prides itself on being open and accepting of all peoples no matter where they come from. It's personally offensive to me. As ideolically right we may be, it doesn't help our cause to spit in their face just to make ourselves feel better. It doesn't help our farmers, our forestry workers, our auto workers, or our fishermen.

What do you suggest instead? Dialogue? Until the U.S. starts regarding Canada as something more than a vassal state (I think some of the scorn from those few commentators who noticed Canada's oppositon to U.S.positions such as Iraq was motivated by a sense of betrayal, much as England felt betrayed by the Boston Tea Party), I don't think dialogue is possible. And, given Canda's overreliance on the U.S and the latter's precarious economic situation, I don't think closer ties are the answer.

I think you are right, they don't care what we think and don't give us much thought... except when we go out of our way to offend them. And I agree, that we aren't treated fairly by the US in terms of trade. They take advantage of our small size and generally ignore us. Does this mean we should act the same way or take it to an even lower level by bitterly spewing hate whenever we're given a platform?

Again, I think Canada needs to wean itself off the U.S. Our economy and security are too dependant on them. In this instance, we need to think like Yanks and look out for #1.

And in terms of defence, security and international relations I'm not sure how someone can argue that we should have any say when we do not make any significant contributions, and I'm not talking about going to war in Iraq. In fact in many cases we appear to hinder the US in defence rather than help them, but that should be save for another thread.

Why should we help them? Why should we even be involved at all? I believe Canada's sole priority from a security standpoint should be protecting our own interests, not stirring shit up elsewhere.

I don't see it to this extent. I don't think the US is really saying Canadians are weak and stupid, as much as they are just oblivious to our existance. But when you think of it in a global context, why should Canada be given any more say than any other country of our size like Poland or Spain. For some reason Canada seems to feel entitled to major world decisions with making the necessary contributions. Nevertheless, the neighboring smaller country to the larger country with a similar culture often looks upon the larger as big, arrogant and uncaring towards its' needs. Ask an Austrian what he thinks of Germany, a New Zealander of Austrailia, a Nepali of India, etc. they'll all have some gripes. But like I said, Canada seems to be taking to the next level.

And I think Canadian anti-Americanism is way overblown. If anything, we don't have enough of it.

[I miss Reagan]

What do you suggest instead? Dialogue?  Until the U.S. starts regarding Canada as something more than a vassal state (I think some of the scorn from those few commentators who noticed Canada's oppositon to U.S.positions such as Iraq was motivated by a sense of betrayal, much as England felt betrayed by the Boston Tea Party), I don't think dialogue is possible.

Yep, I do suggest closer ties. Mulroney, love him or hate him, accomplished far more for Canadians than his anti-American predecessors just by being friendly. He was willing to contribute to defence and he fought for, and won, in the fight against acid rain. I suggest a course in technical sales BD. You'll be amazed how well being nice works in gaining listening ears.

Again, I think Canada needs to wean itself off the U.S. Our economy and security are too dependant on them. In this instance, we need to think like Yanks and look out for #1.

Given that we share the same giant island, this is impossible on both levels. Although we should diversify our economy to not be so dependent on the US, we still have to compete against newly emerging threats like the EU. Staying close to the US is very important if we want to remain economically competetive. As for being independent in defence, I'm all for more independence in defence, especially if we want to argue we are a sovereign country and want a say in what the US does with respect to our airspace, but like Kissinger basically says we have to live together so we better learn to get along.

Why should we help them? Why should we even be involved at all? I believe Canada's sole priority from a security standpoint should be protecting our own interests, not stirring shit up elsewhere.

You really should log on to the CSIS website and have a look at the threats to Canada. It is in our interests to influence peace in the world. We live in an increasingly integrated world where the friction of space is becoming less and less of an issue. Isolationist policies will not serve us well in the long run, especially when Canada is really a microcosm of the world anyway with our cultural diversity.

And I think Canadian anti-Americanism is way overblown. If anything, we don't have enough of it.

This is pretty dumb considering that you live in the most Americanized province of the most America-like country in the world.

[Black Dog]

Yep, I do suggest closer ties. Mulroney, love him or hate him, accomplished far more for Canadians than his anti-American predecessors just by being friendly. He was willing to contribute to defence and he fought for, and won, in the fight against acid rain. I suggest a course in technical sales BD. You'll be amazed how well being nice works in gaining listening ears.

Of course, a receptive audience helps too.

Given that we share the same giant island, this is impossible on both levels. Although we should diversify our economy to not be so dependent on the US, we still have to compete against newly emerging threats like the EU. Staying close to the US is very important if we want to remain economically competetive. As for being independent in defence, I'm all for more independence in defence, especially if we want to argue we are a sovereign country and want a say in what the US does with respect to our airspace, but like Kissinger basically says we have to live together so we better learn to get along.

Why is the EU a "threat" and not an opportunity for a new partner? Think on this: our over-reilance on the U.S. means that when it goes down, we go down too.

You really should log on to the CSIS website and have a look at the threats to Canada. It is in our interests to influence peace in the world. We live in an increasingly integrated world where the friction of space is becoming less and less of an issue. Isolationist policies will not serve us well in the long run, especially when Canada is really a microcosm of the world anyway with our cultural diversity.

Well, we haven't influenced peace in the world with any of our curent policies and have, in some cases, actively undermined it. I think a policy of constructive engagement (of the non-military variety) is the globes only hope for peace. But then I don't believe peace is really a priority.

This is pretty dumb considering that you live in the most Americanized province of the most America-like country in the world.

By anti-Americanism, I mean more constructive criticism, not the unflinching support common in this particular neck of the woods.

[I miss Reagan]

Of course, a receptive audience helps too.

But you gain a receptive audience by showing empathy, building on common goals. Not by focusing on differences. This is what diplomacy, statesmanship, and tact are about.

Why is the EU a "threat" and not an opportunity for a new partner?

I don't think it will ever be viable for Canada to join the EU by virue of Geography not to mention our integrated infrastructure with the US.

Think on this: our over-reilance on the U.S. means that when it goes down, we go down too.

This is true. I totally agree, we need to build ties with other partners like China and India (keep in mind though, that you have to abandon the protectionist policies and be willing to retrain people). But we still need to remain connected with the US to be competetive in the world.

Well, we haven't influenced peace in the world with any of our curent policies and have, in some cases, actively undermined it. I think a policy of constructive engagement (of the non-military variety) is the globes only hope for peace.

I don't know if that's entirely true, but we could've played a role in Rwanda or Sudan had we had committed leadership.

By anti-Americanism, I mean more constructive criticism, not the unflinching support common in this particular neck of the woods.

Don't we have enough constructive criticisim? We have American failures in front of our faces every day. I certainly hope we've learned from American lessons such as the proliferation of hand guns, gang problems, inner-city issues etc. But does that mean we ignore the successes to dwell on the problems and use it as a reason to prop ourselves up above them? And I think there are a few reasons why you see support for the US in Alberta. First there are a lot of Americans living in Alberta so people here are more familiar, and better informed that Americans aren't so bad. Second, we obviously have more in common with the US's conservative values. But I also think that it's somewhat of a counter-punch to the over-the-top anti-Americanism that comes from out east. It's not that Albertans "unflinchingly" support the US, but perhaps that they are opposing the villification of the US. That's my take.

[Black Dog]

But you gain a receptive audience by showing empathy, building on common goals. Not by focusing on differences. This is what diplomacy, statesmanship, and tact are about.

True.

Yet, that's not what we're seeing from our southern neighbours.

Don't we have enough constructive criticisim? We have American failures in front of our faces every day. I certainly hope we've learned from American lessons such as the proliferation of hand guns, gang problems, inner-city issues etc. But does that mean we ignore the successes to dwell on the problems and use it as a reason to prop ourselves up above them?

Is there ever such a thing as enough constructive criticism?

Look, this started because you said Canadians beleif that the U.S's policies are a threat to our national security is an example of antiAmericanism. Have you asked why that belief exists?

[I miss Reagan]

But you gain a receptive audience by showing empathy, building on common goals. Not by focusing on differences. This is what diplomacy, statesmanship, and tact are about.

True.

Yet, that's not what we're seeing from our southern neighbours.

That's what I'm talking about, retaliating in kind doesn't work well when you're the little guy in the relationship. Not to mention that it's just plain immature. Besides I thought we were supposed to be better than that. Anyway their reasons for ignorance are because they have many more serious issues to worry about then coddleing Canada.

Look, this started because you said Canadians beleif that the U.S's policies are a threat to our national security is an example of antiAmericanism.

I thought the point of the post was clear. That Canadians have an obvious chip on their shoulder if they actually believe US policy is as dangerous as OBL.

Have you asked why that belief exists?

Isn't this what we're discussing?

[Black Dog]

I thought the point of the post was clear. That Canadians have an obvious chip on their shoulder if they actually believe US policy is as dangerous as OBL.

Has it ever entered you mined that they may have a case?